Champion Eternal Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Guys just a quick question,are now rhinos considered open-topped if the hatch is opened? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester262 Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 no. they don't count as opened topped because marines have on power armor Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1640283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 A rhino counts as open topped if the passengers don't have power armour (inquisition storm troopers for example) it doesn't if they do have power armour (sisters and marines for example) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1640599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 A rhino counts as open topped if the passengers don't have power armour (inquisition storm troopers for example)it doesn't if they do have power armour (sisters and marines for example) Where is it specified? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1640603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 A rhino counts as open topped if the passengers don't have power armour (inquisition storm troopers for example)it doesn't if they do have power armour (sisters and marines for example) Where is it specified? somewhere in the rulebook I think, can't find mine at the moment, but its a generally known thing, so rarely needs looking up Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1640612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalfedan Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 A rhino counts as open topped if the passengers don't have power armour (inquisition storm troopers for example)it doesn't if they do have power armour (sisters and marines for example) Where is it specified? somewhere in the rulebook I think, can't find mine at the moment, but its a generally known thing, so rarely needs looking up Are you sure? I have the rulebook in front of me and can't find anything. I wish it were true though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1640632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlarshark Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 The rule is found in the rhino description in all the Space marine codexes, the Chaos SM, Deamon hunters and Witch hunters codexes, but oddly is not mentioned in the main rule book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1640642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 The rule is found in the rhino description in all the Space marine codexes, the Chaos SM, Deamon hunters and Witch hunters codexes there we go, shows how many times I've been required to look it up in 13 years Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1640672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nik0 Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Can't find it in blood angels ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1640715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imriel Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Can't find it in blood angels :( Oddly enough i couldn't find it in C:SM or C:DA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1640991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 it's in the C:DH transports list, at the top. it is NOT in C:SM, C:WH, for certain, and I don't feel like looking up C:BT/SW/DA/CSM.... the counts as open topped IS in the 4th ed BBB under Infantry Firing From Vehicles, where it states specifically that it it open for purposes of the next shooting phase (so the vehicle may be more easily damaged). it is not in the 5th BBB. that rule is only applicable where the codex says, and then only for the amount of time stated (or that is agreed to be reasonable by both players if one is not stated nor implied, I would guess.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1640992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemonScampi Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 I have to say I may have been considering sticking a unit of Scouts in a Rhino with a Character of some sort, disembarking the character, declaring the scouts shooting out, then arguing the vehicle was now open topped and the character could assault. I would never have actually done it, and I'm sure the rules say something about it somewhere, but it would've been interesting to watch someone sweat whilst frantically trying to disprove my claim. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1645393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 I can see this getting abused by a lot of people. historically, the counts-as open topped if firing from the hatch/fire points (4th) was only for purposes of firing from or upon the vehicle, it never granted assault capabilities a'la open-topped vehicle rules. leftover codex wording, combined with a rulebook that has no mention of the thing and some eager interpretation is going to lead to a much needed, and likely not produced, C:DH FAQ update. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1645513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetEzekial Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 I have to say I may have been considering sticking a unit of Scouts in a Rhino with a Character of some sort, disembarking the character, declaring the scouts shooting out, then arguing the vehicle was now open topped and the character could assault. I would never have actually done it, and I'm sure the rules say something about it somewhere, but it would've been interesting to watch someone sweat whilst frantically trying to disprove my claim. No being 'frantic' about it, it's simple enough to disprove. Scouts cannot take a rhino. They have no options listed for a trnasport, and rhinos only carry regular space marines. (they do, however, have access to a drop pod, via newer the codeci like DA. but only those newer ones get it) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1645883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 I have to say I may have been considering sticking a unit of Scouts in a Rhino with a Character of some sort, disembarking the character, declaring the scouts shooting out, then arguing the vehicle was now open topped and the character could assault. I would never have actually done it, and I'm sure the rules say something about it somewhere, but it would've been interesting to watch someone sweat whilst frantically trying to disprove my claim. Ok. The character would have to get out in the movement phase, when the vehicle is not opentopped. Its becoming opentopped later is irrelevant, when the character disembarked it was a close topped vehicle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1645887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cale Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 I have to say I may have been considering sticking a unit of Scouts in a Rhino with a Character of some sort, disembarking the character, declaring the scouts shooting out, then arguing the vehicle was now open topped and the character could assault. I would never have actually done it, and I'm sure the rules say something about it somewhere, but it would've been interesting to watch someone sweat whilst frantically trying to disprove my claim. No being 'frantic' about it, it's simple enough to disprove. Scouts cannot take a rhino. They have no options listed for a trnasport, and rhinos only carry regular space marines. (they do, however, have access to a drop pod, via newer the codeci like DA. but only those newer ones get it) Under the new transport rules, Scouts can embark onto a Rhino purchased for a different squad, so this isn't going to help. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1646138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
garreth Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Excuse me, where written that Rhino with open hatch become open-toped? I can't find. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1646671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Excuse me, where written that Rhino with open hatch become open-toped? I can't find. Demon hunters codex, transports page, blurb above the 3 tanks. says rhinos and chimeras count as open topped when the top hatch is used as a firing point by models with Sv of 4+ or worse. really doesn't apply to SMs, and I don't think a unti from one codex can use a dedicated transport from another unit in an allied codex (in a game where they are run as allies...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1646920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
garreth Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Oh, it seems all deamonhunters come together here to discuss open-toped rhino ;-) It seems that in codexes other than C:DH Rhino doesn't count as open toped while hatch opened. So it's nothing to discuss =) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1646931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetEzekial Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 I have to say I may have been considering sticking a unit of Scouts in a Rhino with a Character of some sort, disembarking the character, declaring the scouts shooting out, then arguing the vehicle was now open topped and the character could assault. I would never have actually done it, and I'm sure the rules say something about it somewhere, but it would've been interesting to watch someone sweat whilst frantically trying to disprove my claim. No being 'frantic' about it, it's simple enough to disprove. Scouts cannot take a rhino. They have no options listed for a trnasport, and rhinos only carry regular space marines. (they do, however, have access to a drop pod, via newer the codeci like DA. but only those newer ones get it) Under the new transport rules, Scouts can embark onto a Rhino purchased for a different squad, so this isn't going to help. That is true. There are no more real 'dedicated' transports.. Just transports that are bought in the same slot. But My post was based off the seemed implication that he was 'taking' the rhino for the scouts, and putting in a character, which wouldn't be possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1647114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whoopxi Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 The ruling about open topped rhinos could be clarified under 4th ed. I have read the 5th book up and down and front to back and I am more than certain they have done away with open topped from firing points as an official ruling. The only place that it mentions something like this is in regards to BUILDINGS... which by the way I feel is a really cool set of rules adds alot of flavor to terrain. Of course... if your codex still mentions open-topped you have to go by the ruling in the codex as we all know codex > rulebook. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1647416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetEzekial Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Codex only trumps the rulebook, if the rulebook says it does. General rules will always apply. It's special rules that will always stay special, and mostly unaffected. The 'codex trumps' is just a leftover conceptualiztion from 4E. GW's main policy on which rules take precidence has always been based on printing order: 'newer trumps older'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1647425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Ezekial - is that order of precedence printed anywhere? I wuold love to see an "official" statement to that effect. would help settle a lot of arguments. re-examined this issue with regard to the rhino / chimera - C:SM/DA/BA/BT/CSM either have no mention or specifically state that the rhino is NOT open topped. no mention, under 5th ed rules, is the same as not open topped. C:WH states that the vehicles will count as as open topped if the top hatch is used, but only for shooting at or assaulting the vehicle. no time limit stated C:IG specifies that the vehicle allows 1 passenger to shoot out of the hatch, and will count as open topped for shooting in the next player turn C:DH does not limit the effect to shooting/assaulting, nor specify a time limit. I suppose it could be that GW actually intends for there to be, effectively, 3 different chimera and rhino effects from using the hatch. they do have a number of different rules between the imperial forces that would seem to use the same equipment. for instance: They currently have 2 or 3 PotMS rules floating, and 2 assualt cannon specs (even in the new rulebook summary sheets - imperial ACs are heavy 3, marines are heavy 4), land raiders with and without assault ramp/vehicle rules. the land raiders used by the GK are better than those used by other DH forces. Marines get BS2 PotMS, while non-GK-DH and WH do not get it at all, and GKs get BS4 PotMS that can also select a seperate target. Since GW can't even bother to get the copyright dates on their FAQs right, can we expect them to fix any of the above if they are, in fact, in error, or to clarify that the differences are intential if they are not? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1648535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpawn Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Nighthawks, Just like to point out that WH PotMS has been errata'ed in for 5th ed, though only in the BS2, same target incarnation. Similarly, SM, DH and WH Landraiders have also gained the assault ramps in the current errata documents. Not sure if any remain without it some version of these now. Maybe it was deliberate giving the DH a better machine spirit. They are supposed to be the elite of the elite, after all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1648610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Nighthawks, Just like to point out that WH PotMS has been errata'ed in for 5th ed, though only in the BS2, same target incarnation. Similarly, SM, DH and WH Landraiders have also gained the assault ramps in the current errata documents. Not sure if any remain without it some version of these now. Maybe it was deliberate giving the DH a better machine spirit. They are supposed to be the elite of the elite, after all. well, the WH FAQ doesn't have the assault vehicle rule, but that's not surprising. I'm just tired of the inconsistency - new rules, great new opportunity to bring those things that seemingly should be the same in line, and they can't even date their copyrights correctly - much less get the facts in line. good ol' GW... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141863-open-topped-rhinos/#findComment-1649228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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