Bp, CC, PF... what hits?

[Agrab]

Okay, so I have a vet sgt. equiped with all three weapons. My question is, can i chose which two (or one, if he uses PF) i use in combat under 5th?

[InquisitorPhred]

Nope, 5th ed requires you to use special close combat attacks if you have them, so you must use the Power Fist. You can no longer 'turn off' your powerfist and use BP+CCW if you want.

[Agrab]

Nope, 5th ed requires you to use special close combat attacks if you have them, so you must use the Power Fist. You can no longer 'turn off' your powerfist and use BP+CCW if you want.

 

where is that in the book (was trying to find it)

It says that if you have two, one of which being special, you need to go special. Says nothing about having three

[InquisitorPhred]

p35, 3rd paragraph, first sentence. Models fight with any special close combat attacks they have; no option to not do so is offered anywhere else.

[njm3]

cf. p 42, bottom right, "Fighting with two single-handed weapons"

[InquisitorPhred]

Nothing there exempts the model from the requirement on the earlier page that if he has a special weapon, he has to use it.

 

If he had say, a BP+Power Sword and also a Power Fist, he could opt to use Power Sword + BP as he's choosing between two different Special Close Combat Attacks.

 

He cannot choose to not use a Special Close Combat Attack at all.

[Aidoneus]

Ah, that makes sense. I was in this game with Agrab earlier, and we were looking on page 42, and couldn't figure out what happens with 3+ CCWs. But yeah, that bit on page 35 is just what we were looking for. Thanks Phred!

[Borys]

Ahoj!

Hmmm, so I can't "turn off" my Terminators' Powerfists?

Not happy - I occasionaly resorted to headbutting to kill off "low-save-but-many-attacks" opponents.

 

Borys

[Agrab]

while i can not see what rule you are talking about (Aidoneus has our rulebook, have yet to get my own) i believe you. However, that makes little sense in fluff (well, you know, he could have lived, but he was required to use a power fist)

 

I think this will be addressed in the first FAQ

[InquisitorPhred]

I think the point is that models have to fight to full effect in assault. e.g., My Harlequins can't decide to not use their Rending weapons this turn because I want to make sure I win on my opponent's turn and don't get shot. Alessio was an awfully solid writer when he did the current Fantasy book. I can't imagine he deleted the line from the old book that said you were allowed to turn off your weapons *and* added a line saying you have to use 'em if you got 'em... and didn't mean it =)

 

"Lads, let's not use these huge armor cleaving swords we've got and just spar bareknuckle with those greenskinned chaps for a few minutes until we see how the rest of the battle is going" doesn't make much sense in fluff either =)

[Gentlemanloser]

But kicking a Necron in the groin becuase you go before him, while your powerfist would have to wait until they had all had thier hits on you first would be. :verymad:

 

I missed that you can't choose which weapons to use. Does 5th now require you to actually have a CC wepaon before being allowed to attakc in CC? What happenes if you have two special wepaons, one that hits on Initiative order, and one that hits on I1?

[nighthawks]

What happenes if you have two special wepaons, one that hits on Initiative order, and one that hits on I1?

"Two different special weapons", bottom-right of P42 says you pick which special to use, (but all attacks must be made with a special if you have one or more, from the sections above this on the same page) and NEVER get the +1 attack for two weapons - so you can use the PW+BP and not the fist, but you still don't get the +1 attack.

 

you are forced, in effect, to use the PW+PF but must nominate that attacks be made with one or the other. the pistol just let you get a shot off heading into the assault.

[Yukka]

i was playing with a sorcerer yesterday and a chaplain. both have weapons that count as power weapons, and both were equipped with bolt pistols. i was rolling 3 "red" dice for the power weapon and a "black" dice for the bolt pistol as the bolt pistol could be saved.. was this right? i know if either had a power fist that wouldnt be the case.

[Reglor]

i was playing with a sorcerer yesterday and a chaplain. both have weapons that count as power weapons, and both were equipped with bolt pistols. i was rolling 3 "red" dice for the power weapon and a "black" dice for the bolt pistol as the bolt pistol could be saved.. was this right? i know if either had a power fist that wouldnt be the case.

 

No, all attacks are made with the same weapon. If you have a special weapon than all attacks are made with it, including any bonus attacks you get from having a second CCW, even if the second weapon is a normal weapon.

[jasokuuhl]

jep you get the normal bonus +1bonus for a bolt pistol when wielding a power weapon. Only Power fist and Thunder Hammer don´t get the +1 Bonus attack but you roll a seperate dice for the Bolt Pistol attack.

[OwenCrute]

if you have, say a Power Sword and a Chainsword, you get all your attacks powered, plus ANOTHER powered one, isn't it? for example, Genestealer takes Scything talons as well as Rending claws, get 3 rend attacks... My fluff explanation being that they hold back the opponent's parries/blocks with their normal weapon and sweep in a few more with the powered one.

[nighthawks]

jep you get the normal bonus +1bonus for a bolt pistol when wielding a power weapon. Only Power fist and Thunder Hammer don´t get the +1 Bonus attack but you roll a seperate dice for the Bolt Pistol attack.

um, what? - I'm not sure I get what you were trying to say, but you never roll a seperate die for any close combat attack no matter what the weapons loadout of the model (posibly barring some special abilities). it is possible that a squad might have a single model with a special attack while the rest have regular weapons (such as a vet sgt with a PW in a squad of marines), in which case you might want to roll different dice for that model at the same time as the rest of the squad. but you would never need to do this for a single model as all attacks are made with one weapon as described on P42 of the BBB.

 

basically, these are the rules:

 

all attacks, incluing bonus attacks for charging, having a second CCW, special rules, etc... are ALL made with the special weapon if you have one.

 

if you have 2 CCW (or CCW+pistol) that are not power, all the attacks are made at base S and I with no special abilities.

 

if you have a single PFist/THammer/LClaw and a pistol or CCW then you make ALL of your attacks with the special, and don't get the +1 attack for 2 CCWs. if you have 2 of these weapons (as a pair, not any 2 from the list), THEN you get the extra attack (and, obviously, use that weapon for all attacks.)

 

if you have 2 different specials then you may choose which weapon to make the attacks with, but you NEVER get the +1 attack for 2 CCW, even if you have a pistol or regular CCW or whatever also.

 

these rules are slightly different from fourth. re-read page P42 any time a question like this comes up, and before the battle just to be sure you are doing it right.

[werewolf_nr]

i was playing with a sorcerer yesterday and a chaplain. both have weapons that count as power weapons, and both were equipped with bolt pistols. i was rolling 3 "red" dice for the power weapon and a "black" dice for the bolt pistol as the bolt pistol could be saved.. was this right? i know if either had a power fist that wouldnt be the case.

 

Not correct, but sounds like it could be fun to play that way.

[Yukka]

I like the response that having an extra cc weapon like a bolt pistol, could allow a parry that means an extra hit gets made with the power weapon.

 

The other answers are all good too but the fluff one is the one I will use to explain it next time I play.

 

Could have had 4 attacks with the powerweapon, 5 on the charge... dammit would have made a real difference yesterday <_<

[SeattleDV8]

jep you get the normal bonus +1bonus for a bolt pistol when wielding a power weapon. Only Power fist and Thunder Hammer don´t get the +1 Bonus attack but you roll a seperate dice for the Bolt Pistol attack.

um, what? - I'm not sure I get what you were trying to say, but you never roll a seperate die for any close combat attack no matter what the weapons loadout of the model (posibly barring some special abilities). it is possible that a squad might have a single model with a special attack while the rest have regular weapons (such as a vet sgt with a PW in a squad of marines), in which case you might want to roll different dice for that model at the same time as the rest of the squad. but you would never need to do this for a single model as all attacks are made with one weapon as described on P42 of the BBB.

 

the only unit that I can think of is the techmarine.....2 base attacks at I4 and his servo arm(s) at I1 (his servo arm servitors also)

[nighthawks]

yeah - but at different initiatives the die color wouldn't be very relevant.

[Kaeso]

What everyone seems to have missed is that you can't give him 3 weapons to start with anyway. Codex limits you to selecting "up to 2 weapons."

[Agrab]

What everyone seems to have missed is that you can't give him 3 weapons to start with anyway. Codex limits you to selecting "up to 2 weapons."

 

additional weapons

If i already have a BP/CCw i do not lose them when i upgrade

[Kaeso]

Hmm, your argument relies on RAW/RAR too much for me. I've always taken it as 2 weapons in total, and I've never seen/played anyone who thought otherwise. Can't really imagine the Sergeant slicing an opponent up with his chainsword, then as the next one charges up, asking him to hold on a moment while he fires up the power fist as being more suitable! As an indication of things in the future, in the Dark Angels Codex it's upgrades rather than purchasing extra weapons.

 

I'll agree that at the moment strictly speaking I can't forbid you from taking 3 weapons, but it just doesn't feel right to me, and I reckon once the new Codex comes out, you'll have to choose 2 out of 3.

[Agrab]

Hmm, your argument relies on RAW/RAR too much for me. I've always taken it as 2 weapons in total, and I've never seen/played anyone who thought otherwise. Can't really imagine the Sergeant slicing an opponent up with his chainsword, then as the next one charges up, asking him to hold on a moment while he fires up the power fist as being more suitable! As an indication of things in the future, in the Dark Angels Codex it's upgrades rather than purchasing extra weapons.

 

I'll agree that at the moment strictly speaking I can't forbid you from taking 3 weapons, but it just doesn't feel right to me, and I reckon once the new Codex comes out, you'll have to choose 2 out of 3.

 

in that case having the two weapons makes no sense (assuming he can not switch quickly, which he could from BP to CCW (drop the gun grab the sword). BUt think of like a person with a heavy weapon, they still keep their CCW/BP (scout) and drop the HB when they are charged

 

that said, I agree that come sept. i will no longer be able to do this... darn