Plague Marines vs. CSM

[deadfuse]

Is it just me, or is there really very little point to fielding regular CSM, unless you want to make a hybrid tactical/assault squad with the Mark of Khorne?

 

9x Plague Marines w/2 plasma guns, Aspiring Champion with Powerfist - 277 points

 

vs.

 

10x CSM w/2 plasma guns, Aspiring Champion with Powerfist, Icon of Nurgle (to make the comparison easier) - 270 points

 

So you get one less guy, and -1I on all your troops, but in exchange you get Fearless, Blight Grenades and Feel no Pain. Seems like a very skewed comparison.

 

 

Or even if you want to go for the cheapo CSM squad with just Icon of Chaos Glory.

 

7x Plague Marines w/2 plasma guns, Aspiring Champion with Powerfist - 231 points

 

vs.

 

10x CSM w/2 plasma guns, Aspiring Champion with Powerfist, IoCG - 230 points

 

Now the regular marines have 3 extra bodies, maintain the I superiority, and can re-roll leadership checks to almost bring them in line with the Plague Marines. But now the Plague Marines have 1 more toughness, feel no pain, and blight grenades. I.E. even with the numerical inferiority, they are still far superior at shrugging off enemy attacks (except the occasional plasma spam or tooled up HQ, and they're still more survivable in the second case due to higher toughness and blight grenades).

 

So my question is, outside of fluff reasons, or the occasion when you want a hybrid unit that has 3 attacks per guy just like the berzerkers, but gives up Fearless, WS5 and furious charge for bolters and special weapons, why would you ever take CSMs over Plague Marines?

[flintlocklaser]

I've been asking the same basic question (somewhere in the past 2 or so pages is my Purge topic) and I unfortunately can't think of a good gameplay reason for regular CSMs over Plagueys either. I am going to field at least some regular CSM squads for my Purge list, but that's purely for fluff reasons. Mechanically I'd be much better off with all my basic Troops choices being Plagueys though. If you figure out a good, tactically sound loadout/role for plain CSMs please let me know too!

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Yeah, there really isn't a reason to do them. Since i've finally decided that my army is going to be black legion styled i'm going to convert my current undivided marines into plague marines and start using them.

[DuskRaider]

I would think the only good reason to give regular CSMs the MoN would be for the weapons you would be able to access. I personally have never and probably will never do this. The price of a MoN is more then 2 PMs alone.

[teh_perfesser]

Plague Marines are extremely points effective and the strongest Troop option in the 'dex, in my opinion. They have a handful of disadvantages, however.

 

Firstly, they can't take heavy weapons. This is offset by the ability to take two specials at any unit size and the fact that taking heavies in a Troop unit doesn't make much sense anymore. Secondly, Fearless isn't necessarily as good as re-rolling morale checks--but Fearless-ness isn't incumbent on the survival of an icon bearer either. The drop from I4 to I3 is actually significant; more significant than a Noise Marine's I5 is to I4.

 

Here's a quick list of some I3 units that you won't have an Initiative advantage against: Kroots, Battle Sisters, Imperial Guardsmen, Tau Crisis, Stealth and Broadsides (the 'sargents'), Necro Pariahs and Ork Nobs, Kommandos, Big Meks, Flash Gitz and some others.

 

While that list might not concern you to much, this list of common I4 units that now have an advantage on you might: *gaunts and the majority of Marine flavours

 

Now in that I3 list, most are also S3 and nothing to be concerned about with the PMs T5. The Tau suits won't get into assault with you anyhow. Pariahs are an exception with S5 and T5 as their attacks allow for no save and no FNP roll--however Pariahs are a very, very rare sight. The I4 list is a little more worrisome, as assault marines and *gaunt swarms are actually quite common and very willing to assault PMs.

 

Anyhow, choosing PMs over normal CSMs is not a complete no-brainer if for no reasons other than less models for offense and the I drop. But it's pretty close to a no-brainer...

[Joah from Alberta]

I'm gonna use a 10-man CSM with rocket or las to protect my objective (along with 2 havoc-rhinos). I'm gonna send 3X 5-man PM ea. 2 plasma to storm my opponents objective. My 9 oblits will Plasma Swarm the battle field. And Mr. T, well-- he just hangin' out.

[deadfuse]

Plague Marines are extremely points effective and the strongest Troop option in the 'dex, in my opinion. They have a handful of disadvantages, however.

 

Firstly, they can't take heavy weapons. This is offset by the ability to take two specials at any unit size and the fact that taking heavies in a Troop unit doesn't make much sense anymore. Secondly, Fearless isn't necessarily as good as re-rolling morale checks--but Fearless-ness isn't incumbent on the survival of an icon bearer either.

Well, in this case I would say that Fearless is better. I'm assuming you're talking about the No Retreat! rule? Plague Marines are probably least concerned with that, since they would get both of their saves against any extra wounds inflicted through No Retreat!

 

The drop from I4 to I3 is actually significant; more significant than a Noise Marine's I5 is to I4.

Can't argue with that, certainly, but as you said, most of the I3 list is pretty harmless. Ork Nobs will probably have power fists, while I've never seen Pariahs in person, in my entire WH40K career.

 

The I4 list is a tad bit worrisome, but then again, gaunts don't have rending or power weapons, have S4 at most, and lose their extra attack when assaulting, so between T5 and two saves, you should be able to laugh them off. The do have the number/cost advantage (almost 2.5 hormagaunts per marine if no biomorphs are utilized), however, so it will probably take a while to hack through them all, unless you handily beat them in combat and force them to take No Retreat! woulds with their 6+ saving throw.

 

Assault Marines are a bit more of a problem, but then again, they also lose their initial attack, have to wound T5, and since most of the rank 'n file won't have power weapons, they have to beat both saves. Also, assault marines are only 1 point cheaper than plague marines. Once again, the advantage is to the Plague Marines over CSM. The sarge will ignore saves, but more than likely will have a power fist (tanks are tougher and there are a lot of 'nidzilla lists out there not to pack powerfists wherever you can).

 

Tooled up Honor Guard or Terminators will certainly make a mess of them, but a unit like that would make a mess of a regular marine squad too. We'll call this one a tie, with CSM having the numbers, and PGs the toughness and blight grenades.

 

Damn it, it seems like I'll be converting my CSM to Plague Marines. It sucks that the dollar is so weak right now, the ForgeWorld plague marine conversion set is 40 friggin' bucks! Before shipping!

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I'm going to be running berzerkers alongside my plagues, hammer and anvil style. This pretty much negates all their initiative oriented downside.

[deadfuse]

Well, I guess this whole discussion begs the question of whether the Plague Marines need to be modeled all bloated and junk, or whether you could just slap some Nurgle shoulder pads and symbols on them, and call it a day. Reason I ask is because the GW models are ugly, while the FW models are crazy expensive.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Well, I guess this whole discussion begs the question of whether the Plague Marines need to be modeled all bloated and junk, or whether you could just slap some Nurgle shoulder pads and symbols on them, and call it a day. Reason I ask is because the GW models are ugly, while the FW models are crazy expensive.

 

Luckily its one of the easiest conversions to do, as long as you can do greenstuff. All the best plague marines i've seen short of forge world were greenstuff conversions. Luckily one of my 3 squads of regular marines isn't basecoated yet. Just need to make some grooves, maybe pull off some tzeentchish helmets in favor of the nurgle one and get to work with the green stuff.

[deadfuse]

Well, I guess this whole discussion begs the question of whether the Plague Marines need to be modeled all bloated and junk, or whether you could just slap some Nurgle shoulder pads and symbols on them, and call it a day. Reason I ask is because the GW models are ugly, while the FW models are crazy expensive.

 

Luckily its one of the easiest conversions to do, as long as you can do greenstuff. All the best plague marines i've seen short of forge world were greenstuff conversions. Luckily one of my 3 squads of regular marines isn't basecoated yet. Just need to make some grooves, maybe pull off some tzeentchish helmets in favor of the nurgle one and get to work with the green stuff.

Got any pics/links?

[Roultox]

A note on why the icons are good in regular CSM squads.

 

Firstly, put a 50 point icon in 10 man size squad, you are paying 5 points per marine for the bonus. Spread that bonus to 20 men, your paying 2.5 points each. Get how this works? Its a reward for using very large units of chaos space marines. (You know the guys, the ones that get MORE stuff than their imperial dopplegangars) Just ice cream added to the cake. Just have to have enough cake to enjoy the amount of ice cream in even amounts. (No this isnt a 4chan referance)

 

Same thing goes for large units of Raptors and so on. If you compare regular marines to plague marines on foot, no transport, same guns and champ upgrades you will find interesting benefits. How well they do against being hit by ordinance, lots of anti tank firepower, shooting down scores of gaunts before they arrive etc. They all have their uses.

 

What I use each troops for listed below:

1k Sons: 3+/4+ save killers, character and monsterous creature hunters (both melee and shooting, force weapon!)

 

Zerks: All around munchers, powerfist usually included for a basic melee unit. (I know, use termies instead, but I use termies for other things like deep strike melta-tank hunting and so on)

 

Plague Marines: Rhino units, if they're getting shot with things that make them die like normal marines, its better off getting them into melee asap like using berzerkers (unless power weapons involved, then I throw them in cover waiting to be charged).

 

Noise marines: My basic and all around unit, a heavy bolter against toughness 4 is 3 shots, it takes 4 bolter shots to do the same, so every marine standing still is like 3/4ths of a heavy bolter and to have a whole troop deddicated to them, is insane. (I use ord with these guys to make them able to hunt squads individually inside rapid fire range while retaining small space for a great mobile firepower tactic)

 

Basic Marines: For when I like to swarm the enemy with my basic trooper, I make sure I have so many bodies on the table (and very damn good troops) to take the charge from a witch hunter dreadnought-and kill it before its attacks get to me (I4-krak grenades) and so on, there is no better troop then a proficient troop that already has everything+numbers. (Compared to the other troop choices)

 

L-Daemons: Pretty much if I dont know what I'm facing and I'm adding icons, nothing says NO to power weapons and dreadnoughts then a batch of these guys. ( find best used along with plague marines, zerkers that like getting close, thousand sons, and points filler if I add icons to beef my basic marines, noise marines dont use them too well IMO - unless you kit them for melee)

 

 

Why make comparisons between a bunch of fruit, some dishes require certain fruit more than others. Dont put oranges in apple pie, or pineapple in a Ice Cream Sundae.

[Smurfalypse]

Well the post was Plague Marines vs CSM's...Now if you take a normal icon and same other gear (which you probably wouldnt do two plasma guns on the CSMs) Your cost difference is very noticable, no there isnt a real reason to do an icon of nurgle other than fluff reasons but there are a pile of reasons to take a normal unit with a different mark, most especially a mark of chaos undivided.

 

x10 marines

x2 plasma guns

x1 champ

x1 PF

equals 220

 

Quite a difference in pts cost and you still get an effective unit, not nearly as survivable but a unit that can hang non the less.

[Plague Pie]

Sometimes you just need more gun. You can get 3 CSMs for the price of 2 PMs. That an extra bolter that may actually make a difference. Not in every game and not all the time, but it's nice to have a little more room for error by getting a bit more Dakka. I play a very Plague Marine heavy force and I'm planning on adding some standard marines to my 1500 pt list just to have a few more bodies to throw around. It's also more attacks at I4 for the same price which can make a big difference.

[flintlocklaser]

Your cost difference is very noticable, no there isnt a real reason to do an icon of nurgle other than fluff reasons but there are a pile of reasons to take a normal unit with a different mark, most especially a mark of chaos undivided.

 

I agree, even though several people jumped on me for saying I intend to use IoCG in a Purge list - although everyone was very friendly, I should point out!

 

I don't want to hijack this thread, and I certainly don't want to turn it into another thread slagging the new 'dex, but I do think that it's hard to deny that this dex works better if you are willing to mix Icons and/or cult troops. Normal troops with the IoN cost too much for what they buy you, when compared to Plague Marines. If I want more bodies on the field, or a heavy weapon, or I4, sure I will be fielding CSMs - and fluff/modelingwise, I'd be fielding them anyway. But not with the IoN, because the 'competing' Nurgley unit (PMs) gets too much other stuff for a similar point cost, with no real restiction on using them for all your troop options (other than your own hangups on what is/isn't fluffy).

[ComradeRed]

The Plague Marines real weakness is a lack of offensive capability. They're rock hard defensive troops and can take a beating, but they don't have any extra firepower over a regular marine. They have their place in the chaos army but they don't completely replace standard CSM. They great for holding objectives, but inefficient at taking them.

[deadfuse]

Well the post was Plague Marines vs CSM's...Now if you take a normal icon and same other gear (which you probably wouldnt do two plasma guns on the CSMs) Your cost difference is very noticable, no there isnt a real reason to do an icon of nurgle other than fluff reasons but there are a pile of reasons to take a normal unit with a different mark, most especially a mark of chaos undivided.

 

x10 marines

x2 plasma guns

x1 champ

x1 PF

equals 220

 

Quite a difference in pts cost and you still get an effective unit, not nearly as survivable but a unit that can hang non the less.

 

7 Plague Marines with the same loadout are 231. Not much difference at all.

 

Sometimes you just need more gun. You can get 3 CSMs for the price of 2 PMs. That an extra bolter that may actually make a difference. Not in every game and not all the time, but it's nice to have a little more room for error by getting a bit more Dakka. I play a very Plague Marine heavy force and I'm planning on adding some standard marines to my 1500 pt list just to have a few more bodies to throw around. It's also more attacks at I4 for the same price which can make a big difference.

That is true, however, this comparison assumes the unit is unmolested the entire time. Once casualties start rolling in, the number advantage swiftly disappears.

 

But I guess the best non-fluff reason for using CSM over PMs is because you don't have to buy the ugly metal ones, the really expensive forgeworld ones, or model them yourself. How ironic, the main reason not to use Plague Marines is sloth. -_-

[aioannou]

personally, i think its numbers, and in the small point games i get the chance to play i cant afford 7 man squads that cost as much as my 10 man squads.

 

i go with a

 

10 man squad, 1 melta, 1 flamer, icon khorne and a rhino transport.

 

its a defensive unit once it hits its area, and can tangle most units in combat.

 

i run 3 of these rhino units.

 

and 1 5 man mark nurge squad as troop choices

[Ian Hockert]

Well there is also the fact the survivability advantage of plague marines is dependent on the enemy's weaponry. Plague Marines are no more survivable against plasma, ranged rending (CC rending they are due to blight grenades), battle cannons, or demolisher cannons. If you are getting shot with small arms then they are more survivable but against large scale weapons they are just as vulnerable as ordinary marines. So then you have to decide if you would rather have more bodies on the table with a little more firepower or fewer bodies that work better against small arms fire.

 

Personally, I don't use plague marines because the one time I used them it felt like cheating and because my army is starting to develop a Slaaneshi theme. However, plague marines are definitely an excellent troop option, especially for highly competitive lists.

[the jeske]

They great for holding objectives, but inefficient at taking them.

at first i was like :D but then I :D . first of all no single unit in the game can take and hold an objective[unless its like on the other end of the table and your opponent is ignoring it or noob].

PM's not good at assault . they same arment . same fist same IC as support as csm . the +1I is all good , but when your taking less dmg even from power weapons [huzza for 5T] this means that the end game resolution of hth phase is going to be more in favor of you .

[Cale]

It's worth pointing out that the Icon of Nurgle is a bad investment on your average Chaos Space Marine squad--and this is where your comparison really fails.

 

Plague Marines are great. What regular marines have going for them is that they're significantly cheaper--but you're just wasting your time if you spend those extra points you save on Icons of Nurgle.

 

To put things in perspective, I can get a Chaos Space Marine squad with two meltas, a Rhino, a Power Fist, and an Icon of Chaos Glory for 255 points--which is not only less than your Plague Marine squad, but it comes with a Rhino, too.

 

In 1500 points, I can fit four Chaos Space Marine squads in Rhinos and still have a reasonable HQ and a reasonable number of lascannons in my Heavy Support slots. You can't do that with Plague Marines. Four decently large squads of plague marines in Rhinos cost way too much. You basically only get three.

 

Anyway, as I said, Plague Marines are certainly good. They're not as strictly superior to regular marines as your comparison makes them out to be, though, because your comparison is predicated on a bad chaos space marine squad. Good CSM squads have other advantages, like Rhinos and reduced cost, which go a lot farther towards balancing them out against Plague Marines.

 

All your comparison really shows is that the Icon of Nurgle is a bad buy on Chaos Space Marines--but, then, everyone should have figured that out by now anyway.

[the jeske]

so .. we were not talking about the icon or nurgle ? well first all its rather hard to build a non pure csm army with chaos under 1,75k pts . Its true , thats how GW made the new dexs . But then again . For in most cases it better to have 3 units of pm then 4 of csm . its a pts and play style thing [and probablly a lot of meta game ] . also I didnt say that csm were crap troops [like demons were in the 4th] for me and the tournament lists I see the pms are just plain better , even with the changes to FnP.

[Smurfalypse]

so .. we were not talking about the icon or nurgle ? well first all its rather hard to build a non pure csm army with chaos under 1,75k pts . Its true , thats how GW made the new dexs . But then again . For in most cases it better to have 3 units of pm then 4 of csm . its a pts and play style thing [and probablly a lot of meta game ] . also I didnt say that csm were crap troops [like demons were in the 4th] for me and the tournament lists I see the pms are just plain better , even with the changes to FnP.

 

 

I think the original thing was the reason if ever to take an icon of nurgle on a base marine unit. think we kinda cleared it up that unless for fluff purposes no one probably would as the pts cost difference between a CSM unit with IoN and a PM squad is practically nil (at 10 man units at least).

 

What i think was proven as well though is the fact that CSM units with icons to other gods (khorne, tzeentch, and glory most especially) can be very much worth it.

[Terminus]

I think the original thing was the reason if ever to take an icon of nurgle on a base marine unit. think we kinda cleared it up that unless for fluff purposes no one probably would as the pts cost difference between a CSM unit with IoN and a PM squad is practically nil (at 10 man units at least).

 

What i think was proven as well though is the fact that CSM units with icons to other gods (khorne, tzeentch, and glory most especially) can be very much worth it.

That's funny, and here I thought the original intent (if you re-read the OP) was that Icon or no, Plague Marines were better (he compares PMs with Chaos Glory Marines). Although I also have to agree that CSM with Icon of Khorne are great tactical units, having good firepower (with 2 specials and a combi-weapon), and also a very solid melee presence.

 

Mark of Tzeench is a pretty neat one, too, but the invulnerable save is devalued with the abundant cover saves. Probably still worth it, though, if only for the extra edge against enemy power weapons.

 

I also have to agree that the regular Plague Marines are ugly models (what the hell are their torsos supposed to be? I get bloated abdomens with corroded power armor, but the GW models look like they have giant flaps of skin instead). The FW are awesome, but considering they are $40 + shipping, and you still have to acquire arms, legs, backpacks and bases (i.e. practically another squad), and you're looking at some serious scratch.

[the jeske]

What i think was proven as well though is the fact that CSM units with icons to other gods (khorne, tzeentch, and glory most especially) can be very much worth it.

well and here is where I disagree mainly because of the change to the wound allocation system. right now you have 2 special guys and asp champ and an icon guy . that 4 marines out of 10 . the 5th armies are going to be[or already are] build to force a massive amount of save [because of the cover saves everyone has] . i expect to see more 6 man devi squads with 3 hvy bolters , more jetbikes and maybe even a foot slogging army of eldar with warwalkers [cant force my wife to play one ;/ ] . the fact that there is a chance of losing the icon guy [and the buff] is a huge turn off for me . [specially as the cult units dont suffer from that ] . + there is the fact that the pts cost dont leave much options to pick [well at least at 1.750 pts] taking an icon of khorn or slanesh [why not take noise marines without sonic weapons ?] offten means one less oblit or not enough pts for rhino/gear for asp champions . In a perfect world the icons would have been all balance and would be more like the special buffs the sm characters give [did you know that they work even after the specials death?] . but they dont . But we are talking here about abstract things . lets make lists with icons and we will see , if it works .