Legions, Cult and Renegades

[refuse]

Gentlemen, things change. Rather than focus on the unchanging, concentrate upon the elements that can be changed. Practice greater acceptance for greater providence.

 

We should be grateful that GW is publishing new army material, irregardless of our own petty codex.

Why should we be grateful?

Shouldn't GW be grateful that we continue to purchase their products? Shouldn't they be the ones striving to produce better products, to show their appreciation of customers? Or should they like the RIAA and other companies that feel their customers should be grateful, sue their own customer base?

 

 

Acceptance of mediocrity does not promote solutions, it promotes stagnation and sub-par goals.

 

Sorry, I expect more from life then acceptance of mediocrity. I expect it from myself, and those I deal with. GW is striving for mediocrity, and blind acceptance by their customer base.

 

Personal Responsibility.

 

After looking over the Chaos book last night I was thinking. Does it not seem that a number of the Legions have splintered into smaller warbands? Look at the number of Cult troops that are joining Abaddon. I think the goal of the Choas book was to offer diversity through the breaking of the original Legions. This by far offers the most flexible forces. The problem is that now those who had collected armies according to the previous codex were left out in the cold, and lost a good amount of character.

A couple of quick things.

1) I agree with you kind of.

Cult being Slaanesh or Khorne, doesn't imply the Chaos warriors came from the legions. They could be just converted, renegades and more.

Legions have fragmented since the time of the heresy. With individual leaders forming warbands and sub-armies.

 

The Lord Commander's Database tried to promote this vision. With the Splinters/subfragments and other groups associated with the Emepror's Children having their story told. The legions (each depending on the particular legion) has broken or stayed together in it's own way.

 

BUT.

If we assume there are different armies of chaos.

From most common (my assumptions) to least common.

 

1) Renegade - not aligned with chaos, just fed up with the imperium

2) Chaos aligned, but not aligned with the powers of chaos. (I would put Icons here, as the worshippers know about chaos, and worship it, but are not dedicated to it, and haven't received gifts/marks)

3) Chaos undivided, aligned with a smaller chaos power, or truely undivided. i.e. worshiping chaos in all it's glory. This is where I put mixed armies. Such as Khorne/Nurgle.

4) Cult - Aligned to a specific gods. All Slaanesh, all Khorne

5) Legion

 

Legions transend Cult. Some were aligned with cult (Emperor's Children), some may have been undivided (Black Legion), some could just be Renegades and never aligned with chaos (Alpha Legion) .

But the armies that represent them are different then any of the others. There are "behaviors" that have lasted 10,000, and wouldn't probably be changing any time soon.

 

We see in fluff (the only thing we can associate with) that the legions maintain their behavior in groups (storm of iron, the Word Bearer series and the night lord book) so are still existent in the current world. Of course fluff isn't rules, and rules is what we are discussing.

 

My thoughts.

[Joah from Alberta]

Refuse, I challenge you to a duel.

 

You are all pretty familiar with my esoteric views by now. I promote equilibrium of change. That is to say that I take note of any changes with great pronunciation, yet I promote my acceptance (and struggle for sportsmanship) to make the best of my situation. With the permission of our community, I formally request a duel with Refuse here on B&C.

 

Refuse, you are a good vocational thinker, yet your views are as brutish as they are profound and your lack of humility is unsporting (or at the least, unyielding). It is not now my intention to insult you sir, only to request a friendly duel. As we are like-minded in our pragmatic views, I challenge your methods of conservative advocacy by means of demonstrating a show of what we have accomplished in our Chaos armies.

 

I propose that we post a portfolio of our work both past and present and allow our community the benefit of seeing which method: (conservative) adherence to righteous heritage vs (liberal) let's walk/run to the Forbidden Kingdom: will achieve the best results.

 

Do you accept my challenge?

[refuse]

Refuse, I challenge you to a duel.

 

You are all pretty familiar with my esoteric views by now. I promote equilibrium of change. That is to say that I take note of any changes with great pronunciation, yet I promote my acceptance (and struggle for sportsmanship) to make the best of my situation. With the permission of our community, I formally request a duel with Refuse here on B&C.

 

Refuse, you are a good vocational thinker, yet your views are as brutish as they are profound and your lack of humility is unsporting (or at the least, unyielding). It is not now my intention to insult you sir, only to request a friendly duel. As we are like-minded in our pragmatic views, I challenge your methods of conservative advocacy by means of demonstrating a show of what we have accomplished in our Chaos armies.

 

I propose that we post a portfolio of our work both past and present and allow our community the benefit of seeing which method: (conservative) adherence to righteous heritage vs (liberal) let's walk/run to the Forbidden Kingdom: will achieve the best results.

 

Do you accept my challenge?

:D

 

What do you want?

 

I don't have any "present" as my army stopped at 4th. :P

 

I am up for anything. :lol:

[refuse]

So my work:

 

Lets start with dedication to Slaanesh.

 

Back a bunch of years ago, TAS made a challenge to me that I took up.

TAS' original post. A great read if you have read this thread. Very fun.

 

So a month later I got it up and running. March 2003 I created a site on my hosting at the time for Slaanesh, well Emperor's Children. There were a few previous starts, but this one stuck for abit.

http://29thgreatcompany.home.comcast.net/~29thgreatcompany/

 

It was to collect the glory of the 29th Great Company (my Emperor's Children), and later expanded to include the Lord Commander's Database. I even did an IA article for them:

http://29thgreatcompany.home.comcast.net/~...dexAstartes.doc

 

And there I started my other love, Daemons, missing since 2nd edition.

http://29thgreatcompany.home.comcast.net/~...aemonWorlds.doc

Later this word doc was converted to the wiki (More on that later), you can find it here. For an older version of the game.

Pictures of my Daemons here

http://www.pbase.com/refuse/daemons

I love keepers, so I bought a bunch on EBay. (all RT era daemons were bought off ebay painted)

http://www.pbase.com/refuse/keepers

 

 

So from there I didn't like editing HTML to make a change. So I migrated to CMS style products (PHP/MYSQL) and built the emperor's children.net

http://emperorschildren.net/

And because I believed in the Lord Commander's fluff, and the idea of promoting people building fluff for their armies, I carried it into a wiki. But the wiki grew, so not it collects fluff and modeling ideas.

The Whole Wiki

The Lord Commander's Database

 

Also because I wanted to provide Slaanesh/EC players with somewhere to store pictures (back when pbase was starting to charge for their service) I used some more open source products to produce a gallery that was free to any member of the ec.net.

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/

 

 

 

Now a quick tour of my armies:

Carnal Cabal - meant for Necromunda

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/CarnalCabal1.jpg

 

4th Cohort of the Emperor's Children

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/...ls.php?album=13

You can read about them in the wiki. They are a homage to the beastmen of RT era, and meant to be an imperial army that is LatD for the 29th Great Company.

 

29th Emperor's Children

3.0 and 3.0 IA article version:

http://www.pbase.com/refuse/oldstyleemperorschildren

 

3.5 Edition

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/wholearmy.jpg

4th edition

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/wholearmy2.jpg

 

 

Aquila chapter - Evil Loyalist version of the Emperor's Children

Information about the chapter, sparse though it may be, is here.

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/...ls.php?album=26

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/...ls.php?album=22

 

Some work in progress pictures of the army

http://www.pbase.com/refuse/worksinprogress&page=1

 

Daemon Army for Fantasy/Daemon World, now C:Daemons (but mono armies are way to weak, so only for fun)

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/daemonarmy~0.jpg

It has never been fielded, but I do love Slaanesh.

I just picked up 10 new daemonettes

 

Other related Hobby stuff:

For the hobbiest, I identified all the parts that were useful for Emperor's Children/Slaanesh players: When you could bit order

http://emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php...ldren_Bitz_List

http://emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php...anesh_Bitz_List

Daemon Bits:

http://emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php...emons_Bitz_List

 

FW bits:

http://emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php...World_Bitz_List

 

 

I started and created the B&C AOD Space Hulk, put the rules up for others:

http://emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php?title=Kill_Team

Based off GW's kill team.

 

 

That is my non-painting work (well including the armies, so you can see what I have).

The Aquila hasn't been updated since I modified their past a bit to fit better with 4th edition, now having to wait to see how it ties in with 5th.

The 4th Cohort was painted for the Boston GT, but I never played it there.

The Daemon Army was because I had been collecting daemons, so they might as well get painted.

The 29th has been done 3+ times. I sold the first, still have parts of the second (sold of parts), and the third is on my shelf.

 

In addition I have a Imperial Fist army I can never get around to finishing. A Genestealer Cult army (72 genestealers).

[refuse]

Fiction:

Stuff here on B&C

I tried to make up little stories (or was doing it) for each of my characters.

Recoveirng an old friend

The Daemon Prince

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/DPfront.jpg

 

The Imperium and how it creates it's own problems.

The Second Sin

 

He is afraid, but will learn to be feared.

The Third Sin

 

 

Stuff not on the B&C:

A story about the Land Raider Indomitable.

Indomitable

Back in the colors he deserves to be!

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/Pb120023.jpg

 

The story of how Legions continue to grow

Big Game Hunt

Big Game Hunt 2 - what to do with the prize

 

A quick story written to challeng a Space Wolf who use to be a mod here.

Fast attack

[Joah from Alberta]

Ahh, nothing like hurry-up offense.

 

I fear that you are unwilling to yield to my intention.

 

Acceptance of mediocrity does not promote solutions, it promotes stagnation and sub-par goals.

 

I ask again, do you accept my challenge?

[flintlocklaser]

Ahh, nothing like hurry-up offense.

 

I fear that you are unwilling to yield to my intention.

 

Acceptance of mediocrity does not promote solutions, it promotes stagnation and sub-par goals.

 

I ask again, do you accept my challenge?

 

 

Maybe you should explain what the challenge is with less tortured prose, since refuse seems to have answered exactly in the spirit of your earlier post:

 

I propose that we post a portfolio of our work both past and present and allow our community the benefit of seeing which method: (conservative) adherence to righteous heritage vs (liberal) let's walk/run to the Forbidden Kingdom: will achieve the best results.

[refuse]

I ask again, do you accept my challenge?

Yes, I thought I was answering it.

To be fair, as I said in PM, RL gets in the way, and I am more of a do now, don't wait.

 

Please spell out the challenge for the forum. I accept. But again, I am trying to cover the portfolio. No offense was meant the first time, nor the second.

 

So we are clear (the forum and I).

I thought Joah's original question was good. The part about warband and splintering.

The other thing came along due to my cut and paste.

[refuse]

Or better yet (after re-reading your post).

I will put up only what I have done till 4th (when I stopped with EC).

You can have 2-3 weeks to develop anything you would like to, to show dedication.

I, to be honest and evident in my posts, really don't feel like creating anything new for EC, not till there is a reason, a codex to design to.

I bought (as indicated in my PM), 10 new daemonettes (you can see, that I don't ever consider there being not enough daemonettes). But I can't imagine me painting any in 2-3 weeks. I may do one, but, again. .

 

Chaos to me is dead. <_<

Mono-Daemon Armies (I will only play Slaanesh) are ineffective, I will collect one, but not play one. Heck I have one! And did before it was legal.

 

I will continue to post stuff I have done prior to the new codex, until you tell me otherwise. Take the time to organize and develop things to show your current dedication. I will show you the dedication lost. :P

 

We can still have a contest if there is addition stuff you want.

[Joah from Alberta]

My intentions are good, but as my dad always says, the road to Hell is paved with good intention.

 

I do have a Master plan. I am glad that you have accepted my challenge, for I intend to prove something to you. I do care for you refuse, yet I believe that your contributions to the community could be a great benefit if your attitude was not so negative. Well, that is my opinion.

 

As you can all see, refuse has posted his beautiful work. Thousands of hours and much care has been placed in creating his armies. Yet, I believe that if he feels his beautiful army has been made obsolete, he should just quit lamenting and allow the community to continue growing without his defeatist attitude.

 

Ah-- hear me out. I realise that these are harsh words that I present to our honoured member. Yet he has accepted my challenge, so sit back and enjoy the show gentlemen. I have a good feeling about this.

 

I must state that I am completely dedicated to worldeaters.net and all of my work has been published exclusively to worldeaters.net ... I love you guys ...

 

Now to find my banner ...

[refuse]

My intentions are good, but as my dad always says, the road to Hell is paved with good intention.

 

I do have a Master plan. I am glad that you have accepted my challenge, for I intend to prove something to you. I do care for you refuse, yet I believe that your contributions to the community could be a great benefit if your attitude was not so negative. Well, that is my opinion.

 

As you can all see, refuse has posted his beautiful work. Thousands of hours and much care has been placed in creating his armies. Yet, I believe that if he feels his beautiful army has been made obsolete, he should just quit lamenting and allow the community to continue growing without his defeatist attitude.

Not sure how it is defeatist, to be honest.

It is brutal, and obnoxious, and in your face as much as possible. But not defeatist.

I think, as I have made clear, that accepting poor quality, or poor performance increases the likely hood of poor performance. If GW (and they do) think people will accept mediocrity, then that is what they will give. Time and time again.

 

I don't complain about prices. I pay more for other luxuries then 40k. But I do expect my expenditures to be worth their cost. If I buy bad meat at the super market (i.e. I didn't know it was bad) I take it back. If I get bad service, I indicate such (quite nicely in fact as influencing people requires certain actions), and if it is unsatisfactory, I indicate it.

 

I work for a large corporation, very large. And I am building a new product. And right now, today I have done 13 hours of work, to deliver the best I can. Less then the best, and my associates would let me know. Heck, after being near done, I had a review and we just added in 7 more hours of work (to be done by 3pm tomorrow). All good comments that I didn't see, and accept as improvements.

 

 

Ah-- hear me out. I realise that these are harsh words that I present to our honoured member. Yet he has accepted my challenge, so sit back and enjoy the show gentlemen. I have a good feeling about this.

Actually the cool thing is. :)

If I do a poor but adequate job, you have to accept it. As that is your POV. If you challenge me to do my best, then I win, as that is my POV. If I choose to do nothing, you have to be polite, and not point it out, as you should let me get on with my life, and you shouldn't bother me with a defeatest attitude. :) All in all, I win regardless of the outcome. And you prove my point by not doing any of the above.

 

I must state that I am completely dedicated to worldeaters.net and all of my work has been published exclusively to worldeaters.net ... I love you guys ...

 

Now to find my banner ...

Woah now. ;)

First off, Slaanesh vs Khorne, couldn't ask for better.

 

2nd off, if you didn't create the worldeaters.net and don't pay for it's maint, and don't support it and maintain it. I think I win there alone! :)

[Joah from Alberta]

Winning is relative. As all life is conserved, you win (something) if you lose and you lose (something) if you win. You will never know what you could have become had you done things differently in life. In a spherical Universe, the height of our existence is always upon the apex of the curvature. And lastly consider that, sunbeams don't compete.

 

I do not believe that a poor product will lead to poor performance necessarily. Perhaps this is an American failing, to believe that if it's not the best it can only ever be mediocre. This thinking will only lead to obscurity. In my school, we learn to make the best of things and by virtue of greater acceptance will come greater providence.

 

Yes, I did begin my army with Khorne. I chose World Eaters for their ease of play, it was a simple doctrine, open the Rhino gates and ToBB. Yet what I have to present to you is a show of my love for the spirit of the game. Allow me a few days to compose my portfolio so that I may prove to you that the Emperor's Children are far from dead, and have not lost but rather gained in the new days ahead.

[Roultox]

Yet to be seen if they do you justice in the so called Legions codex they've been chatting about some time back. Rumors, but said to be spoken by top brass word of mouth.

 

However, I assume if you played small games with your emperor's children, the bigger toys you used to use not being added you might not notice a large difference and enjoy the free grenades and blast rules. (If you like them that is)

 

The time I get to play as of recent though, Im starting to think of one day a month to play, the weekend where apocalypse is posted for my local shop so I can field chaos forces unseen by most people. You might enjoy such play style yourself, but either way I think you made your mind up on not playing the EC. (En-quote of your giving up on chaos, dont take my assumption to heart)

 

I sort of am keeping out of the main topic, its not really adressed to me directly.

[the jeske]

your really advocating apo as a way to get throught the chaos dex[so more or less 5th edition] for veteran games that dont want to play a BL/free for all renegade force ?

[Joah from Alberta]

http://belloflostsouls.tumblr.com/post/443...perors-children

 

Someone should tell him about the use of Spawn we discovered.

 

Cheers,

[refuse]

Refuse, I challenge you to a duel.

 

You are all pretty familiar with my esoteric views by now. I promote equilibrium of change. That is to say that I take note of any changes with great pronunciation, yet I promote my acceptance (and struggle for sportsmanship) to make the best of my situation. With the permission of our community, I formally request a duel with Refuse here on B&C.

 

Refuse, you are a good vocational thinker, yet your views are as brutish as they are profound and your lack of humility is unsporting (or at the least, unyielding). It is not now my intention to insult you sir, only to request a friendly duel. As we are like-minded in our pragmatic views, I challenge your methods of conservative advocacy by means of demonstrating a show of what we have accomplished in our Chaos armies.

 

.<snip>

.

.

And folks.

I think we see the absolute winner here.

 

Accpetance to change, vs Personal Responsibility. Demanding, and expecting quality vs mediocrity.

 

I propose that we post a portfolio of our work both past and present and allow our community the benefit of seeing which method: (conservative) adherence to righteous heritage vs (liberal) let's walk/run to the Forbidden Kingdom: will achieve the best results.

 

Do you accept my challenge?

2 weeks now, an the team conservative who initiated the challenge has done 0 work. Team Liberal has met the stated requirements.

 

From the PM I got

Should you accept my challenge, I have a few simple request. We should discuss time (say 2-3 weeks to post pictures). Pictures should only be our own work, both past and present. I a willing a small wager (perhaps a Slaanesh mini) to commemorate the challenge.

 

Cheers,

2 weeks have past, no indication of anything!

 

;)

 

Hurry up offense indead. Sad when the defense doesn't show up.

 

;)

[Roultox]

I accept things in my own little world I make up for 40k and pick the rules that best represent the force I want to use. An affinity to energy-based weapons that use infinite(based on energy limit) ammo. Laser, Sonic, Plasma(Plasma cores make them infinite for titans) and the ever present melee weapons. Giving me free reign over certain Imperial Guard, Noise Marines and Obliterators, and some other counts-as weapons with similar stats for their size.

 

I went with this playstyle according to that no matter what GW throws at me I wont have to change much and if I do it right, I wont be forced to buy anything other than what I wanted originally.

 

I believe I'm in the gray area between the two choices that refuse stated. "Accepting and changing." *VS* "Expecting a required level of customer service." (To put it nicely even if its not perfect)

 

I feel bad for the fellas still stuck with mainstream and not self-fluffed forces built on a firm basis that disregards change. Being able to buy a box with Games Workshop labels on it without worry if I'll regret it later feels good.

 

Hey Refuse, you play apocalypse with your chaos? Able to use daemonettes, daemons of the right status, sonic marines to a decent degree and slaanesh cultists?

[the jeske]

apo , really ? the idea may be good for new players [lets bring our 1k pts armies and play a huge 8k pts game]. but for vets or peeps that have bigger armies , it turns in to who has more flyers and more FW stuff [ever seen what lord solar macharius does with 4 medusa siege guns and a pre battle bombardment with the siege company rules ?] .

 

also it only helps cult armies [or those with legal made by GW data fax] . Apo gives 0 to undivided legion players .

[kharn_the_betrayer]

also it only helps cult armies [or those with legal made by GW data fax] . Apo gives 0 to undivided legion players .

 

 

Actually I respectfully disagree with your statement. Yes the undivided legions have gotten looked over when it has come to data sheets, and I will agree with you on that. I think that until the alleged Legions Codex comes out Apocalypse is one of the best things for Chaos. This mainly comes down to the things that were lost out of the 3.5 codex, mainly the appendix lists that a lot of members on this forum had been using. While it would be cool to have a Word Bearers Host or a Iron Warriors Grand Company represented by a data sheet, at the moment we don't have that. We do have the option to take the armies as we feel they need to be played. IW players can now take their Basilisk and all the heavy support they want, NL players can take all the raptors they can muster, and WB can do all their troops. The other thing helping us as a codex is the ability to take two armies at once. The new Daemon codex lets us field fluffy lists with daemons in them. Imagine the new blood letters running along the Malestorm of Gore, or the EC warband going along all those Daemonettes. If anything the expansion allows vetran players to make the nice fluffy lists that we can't make anymore. I think if I went to work on a WB host it would have all the lovely Daemon rules for apoc to take all of them and use them in the vain of the old list.

 

This is just my opinion on how it has helped us as Undivided players but I do agree that some data sheets would be nice.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Once more, so people can understand. Night Lords are terror troops, not jump-pack fanatics. Night Lords =/= Raptors! Night Lords = scare the enemy troops, giving them leadership modifiers, if done properly.

[kharn_the_betrayer]

Once more, so people can understand. Night Lords are terror troops, not jump-pack fanatics. Night Lords =/= Raptors! Night Lords = scare the enemy troops, giving them leadership modifiers, if done properly.

 

My apologies. NL and AL are the two that I am least familiar with. I was looking for mimicry of the old list with them, and as such got what I felt was a semi accurate representation, of the list without the veteran skills that made it fluffy. With the other two legions its a little easier to get the feel of their fluff without the skills.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Sorry if I came across a bit harsh there, Khârn, I've just taken it upon myself of reminding people of the true Night Lords fluff. But yeah, I can see where the confusion comes from, the Night Lords and Alpha Legion weren't represented that well under the 3.5 codex, fluffwise. So yeah, the old rules have just made people think we're a combination of Chaos Raven Guard and Chaos White Scars, which is very far from the truth.

[kharn_the_betrayer]

Don't worry about it, it was late when I posted that stuff. I also got the idea to work on NL, AL, and WB data sheets, if anyone wants to help (esp with AL please pm me and leave a message here, I just dug 3.5 out to work on it).

[the jeske]

I dont know for me and people playing here [and by that I mean eastern europe] apo is a dead system . most games are played in shops [or on tournaments] , so people dont have time nor the place to play apo .

Also how is taking IG units or codex demon more fluffy for AL or NL players [and as am a player too , how does it make it better then the other data fax lists]? A BL/renegade list can take the same stuff [hey considering the ally rules are just guidlines you can techniclly take what you want] + stuff a fluffy AL /NL wont be able to use .

 

. The new Daemon codex lets us field fluffy lists with daemons in them

you mean the last 25 years fluffy or last dex "chaos one big happy family fluffy" ? because woe to the man who tries to run a mono demon list at any number of pts , specially in apo [0 anti aircraft units . unless you want to count the IG stuff ].