Khorne Bezerkers vs. CSM with Mark of Khorne

[Ork]

I'm building my list right now and I cant come to a conclusion. (10) Chaos Space Marines + Mark of Khorne are 18 points each, and for three more points I can get a berserker. This is how i've put the benefits and costs so far:

 

CSM +Mark of Khorne:

 

Bolters

 

Special Weapons

 

Cheaper

 

Bezerkers:

 

Furious Charge

 

Fearless

 

WS 5

 

So furious charge and fearless for three points, but in doing so you lose you ability to rapid fire (flexibility) and special weapons (anti tank pew pew)

 

What does everyone else think? Maybe one of each?

[Euraldius]

It really matters what you are basing your army on.

 

I like taking one squad of berzerkers with my lord and sticking them in a raider.

 

However, for maximum flexibility I recommend taking the CSM squads with Khorne and putting them in Rhinos.

Move close to the enemy and jump out with rapid firing bolters. Have an aspiring champion w/sword or fist and a flamer/melta/plasma gun for some added power. If something survives the torrent of fire, then you still have a rock hard unit in close combat. Berzerkers are somewhat more single minded. Also, the squads in Rhinos are better at securing objectives, as they are quicker and better protected (and who doesn't like mobile cover?).

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Also, the squads in Rhinos are better at securing objectives, as they are quicker and better protected (and who doesn't like mobile cover?).

 

You can put berzerkers in Rhinos.

 

I'd say it really comes down to the rest of your list. Let me sum up the pros and cons as i see them:

 

Khorne Marines:

Pros: Cheap, bolters, special weapons.

Cons: Vulnerable to moral failure.

 

Berzerkers:

Pros: Furious charge (able to damage monstrous creatures and kill vehicles on the charge), fearless.

Cons: Price

 

Cheap is great. But then again, 3 points difference isn't going to be getting you that many more marines. Are the extra marines you will have due to using vanilla instead of cult going to outweight the fact that zerks wound more?

 

Rapid firing is great, but how often will it happen? If you are 12' away you are always going to move and then assault, not just rapid fire. So you will only use it when you are out of range. So maybe once a game, twice max? That is assuming you are using rhinos to move in. Similarly having that shot at 24 inches makes them better for sitting on objectives than zerks, but unless you are 100% khorne you can probably find something better to do that.

 

Special weapons are always sweet. Meltas to take out some tanks or MCs, flamers for anti horde is great. Plasma would probably be a waste. I'd say double flamer squads would be better anti horde than zerks, except that hordes tend to drop lots of wounds on you, and with the new moral mechanics you'll find yourself very vulnerable to being swept if you lose any combats. Meltas are nice for killing tanks and MCs, but berzerkers can do that on the charge as well. Meltas are a little more flexible of course due to range, but then again you only get 2 rather than your entire squad have str5 on the charge. 40 str 5 attacks are going to hurt a toughness 8 mc or rear armor 10 vehicle mor than 2 str 8 shots.

 

Vulnerable to morale failure is a major problem with the new mechanics. Personally i never run regular marines with anything except Chaos Glory because 15+ points a model is way too much to have run off the board or get sweeping advanced. The 3pt difference to get zerkers is worth it to me just for this despite the fact that they take extra wounds in cc now.

 

So, to sum it up, khorne marines are better at sitting on objectives than zerks, and can be better anti horde, but otherwise are inferior offensively and more vulnerable to being swept/running off the board.

[Euraldius]

Normally, I too never run CSM w/o Chaos Glory, but since these have Mark of Khorne:

10 Marines w/2 meltas + Rhino - 205 pts.

10 'zerkers + Rhino - 245 pts.

 

Vs. Space Marine Tac.

The CSM move within 12" of the enemy and pop out of the Rhino.

About 10-11 out of 16 bolter shots hit, about 5 wound, and about 2 Marines die.

Conservatively, 1 melta shot hits and kills a Marine, for a total of 3 dead Marines.

At this point the Tac. Marines have the option of either rapid firing their bolters, inflicting about the same amount of damage and leaving themselves open to the charge, or charging a unit which will get 30 attacks with the Khornate Mark.

 

However, the 'zerkers cannot charge out of a Rhino that has moved, meaning that they have to get out and snap away with their pistols before getting speared by Space Marine fire, or wait for a turn and expose their Rhino to fire while letting the SM move back out of charge range.

[Roultox]

If you want to be conservitive with points to body ratio, and dont want to rely on powerfists for anti vehicle (Facing Tau/Eldar often) then CSM/wMoK is a good option. Otherwise run them up on foot exceeding 10 models, or just stick with 10 zerks in a rhino.

 

I prefer Havoc squads with MoK exceeding 12 models however, using flamers and meltas. If you want such an option. Offbeat though, Raptors fit the role the very best using the MoK. They've got a reason to take the icon, and do the same as the CSM without the need of a rhino and deep strike ability lacking the bolter of course. The only reasoning I would pick bolter-zerks(CSM MoK) would be for rapid fire when exiting the rhino right next to the enemy for a good support before the blades start swinging.

 

Minor details really when you compare, if you have other spots open like fast attack, elite and heavy support, really they're the better options because they arent troop choices, you can sacrifice them on the offence and they have minor(or major depending how you use them) bonuses over CSM with MoK. Considering zerks now hold objectives, strange huh?

[Lady_Canoness]

As a person who fields both on a regular basis, all I can say is that Berzerkers take the cake every single time. WS 5 alone is enough to make them that much better, then with Furious Charge and fearless you get a vastly superior unit. All too often do the MoK CSMs flub because they still need 4s and 4s, whereas KBs need 3s and 3s.

 

Berzerkers everytime. Unmarked Chaos Marines are of more value that MoK Chaos Marines.

[Terminus]

I like one unit of berserkers for the higher weapon skill and furious charge and fearlessness, and then use Khornate marked CSM troops for support. They can shoot stuff with bolters and special weapons, or assist in assaults with berserkers leading the way.

 

Question though, there are a lot of people talking about jumping out of Rhinos to rapid-fire. If you disembark from a rhino, whether it moved or not, the occupants are considered to have moved, so you can't rapid fire. Or am I missing something?

 

edit: I was totally missing something. :D Skipping 2 editions is confusing.

[Joah from Alberta]

Stupid rapid-fire rules triggers something in our dyslexic brain. Yeah, move and rapid-fire as long as you're within 12" but can't assault after rapid-fire.

 

I agree with Lady, 'zerks all the way. Go hard or go home.

[Ork]

I'm not so concerned about having to pop off pistol shots with the 'zerkers. Unless this changed from 5th, I understand you can disembark (2), move (6), and still assault (6) as an alternative. So I still have an effective assault radius of 14 inches with bezerkers. Oh, and 1 lash of course. Heresy I know B).

[Joah from Alberta]

Yeah, rhinos are about to-- explode in 5th.

[Plague Pie]

One more cost you have to factor into the CSMs with IoK is that the Icon Bearer can be capped by massed fire totally losing the overall benefit while the Zerkers have no such weakness.

So to sum up the Pros of Zerkers vs CSMs:

-Fearless

-WS 5

-Furious Charge

-Can't Lose Abilities through loss of one model

[Euraldius]

I'm not so concerned about having to pop off pistol shots with the 'zerkers. Unless this changed from 5th, I understand you can disembark (2), move (6), and still assault (6) as an alternative. So I still have an effective assault radius of 14 inches with bezerkers. Oh, and 1 lash of course. Heresy I know :).

 

You can't assault out of a transport that has moved unless it is a Raider or open-topped.