Are GK considered a chapter of the Adeptus Astartes?

[The Branded]

I didn't think they were, but I was curious nonetheless. Can anyone help me out?

[SinnerBeta]

They are Space Marines as far as being Space Marines goes.

 

They're just stronger, possess better resources and their existence is kept in secret - at least in my opinion.

[Grif 69]

No, they're considered a part of- the militant branch of the Ordo Malleus.

[- 7eAL -]

They are Astartes, but are the militant arm of the Ordo Malleus and thus operate under the control of the Inquisition. Unlike other Space Marine chapters, they do not operate independently. They do not make contact with other Space Marine Chapters, individual Inquisitors, planetary governments, Guard Regiments or even the Administratum and Ministorum - they are dispatched only at the call of the Inquisition.

 

Of all people in the Imperium, only Inquisitors and apparently, other Space Marines, are not executed or mind-scrubbed for seeing them in action. Inquisitors cannot be mind-scrubbed of the information for obvious reasons, and loyal Space Marines cannot be carelessly sacrificed.

[Diddlysquat]

7eAL has it down....they're Chapter 666 of the Adeptus Astartes which I believe has something to do with the 666 Detestation Rituals they have to endure as part of their doctrination process to become a Grey Knight.

[- 7eAL -]

7eAL has it down....they're Chapter 666 of the Adeptus Astartes which I believe has something to do with the 666 Detestation Rituals they have to endure as part of their doctrination process to become a Grey Knight.

LOL And that chapter number is rather odd, because fluff says they were founded between the First and Second Founding of the Space Marines. At that time there would only be 18 Space Marine chapters no matter how you look at it. The Emperor certainly had some ideas going if he already thought of skipping to Chapter number 666.

[Eddie Orlock]

Of all people in the Imperium, only Inquisitors and apparently, other Space Marines, are not executed or mind-scrubbed for seeing them in action. Inquisitors cannot be mind-scrubbed of the information for obvious reasons, and loyal Space Marines cannot be carelessly sacrificed.

From what I recalled, only senior deamon hunters could avoid mind scrubbing, and that even non-knight astartes were so cleansed. Lesser Troops were liquidated with full honours to their regiments.

[- 7eAL -]

So how did Logan Grimnar get away with any memory of they Grey Knights and their efforts in the 1st War for Armageddon? Or did he never actually see the Grey Knights, only knowing that some secret warriors arrived and wiped Angron off the map before he and his Space Wolves got there ...?

[Eddie Orlock]

So how did Logan Grimnar get away with any memory of they Grey Knights and their efforts in the 1st War for Armageddon?

I have a couple of answers for this.

 

First, consider the sources. The mindscrub bits I referance come from early second edition rulebooks. I suspect that Grimnar and the Knights first came from a novel or a board game. At the time novels were regarded as a lower source of canon as they were created by authors under contract and not by the studio itself, this discredits those events. Given that this is second ed fluff, the whole idea of summary executions and mind purges is in itself somewhat discredited, there have been reports of lowly guard regiments fighting deamons and living to tell their grand children.

 

Second, there is fluff suggesting that the Wolves aren't on the best of terms with the Inquisition. In the semi-feudal state that the Imperium exists in where might makes right, the deamon hunters present lacked the ability to enforce the regulations on the Wolves. It's entierly possible that the Great Wolf is at the top of some hit list somewhere but hasn't made a priority of himself. From what I recall, the banishment of Angron decimated the strength of the Grey Knights present, they may not of had the man power to enforce the liquidation of the Wolves.

 

There has been a general trend to remove this aspect of the fluff and in my opinion, while it might make story contiuity easier to write, it detracts from some of the grimness of the setting.

[SinnerBeta]

1) Mindsrubbing and execution methods are from early editions, the current ones make the DH more forvgiving.

 

2) Trying to scrub a Chapter Master would lead to a open civil war with the Wolves.

 

About the origin of the hostility of the SW towards Inquisition, it's because of what happened to the civilians after the Second War of Armageddon. Currently the Wolves hate the Inquisition but don't have the strength to attack them and survive the ensuing war, while the Inquisition has no business in killing the dog that's doing it's job... until it bites the hand that feeds it.

[traitor_dice]

yes, they are a chapter but i think they have more than just 1000 marines. they are supposedely spread all over the place and so i think they may be similar to black templars in some respects.

[Utsujin]

I beleive their numbers are around 3,000 while the Black Templars are around 6,000.

[Da Myth]

7eAL has it down....they're Chapter 666 of the Adeptus Astartes which I believe has something to do with the 666 Detestation Rituals they have to endure as part of their doctrination process to become a Grey Knight.

 

Designed only to face off against daemonic infestations of the warp, ie warp equaling to hell in some sort of way, 666=symbol for the devil or hell itself. The whole 666 rituals is to make you go wow, what a coincidence....interesting. But yea, Grey Knights fight off the daemons for the fact you can not say demons and sell it, due to religous reasons that GW does not want to get into. An go through the horrors of hell, case in point like in Constatine when Keanu Reeves goes through hell through a cats eyes. So im pretty sure the Knights have been through the Warp and know what the hell [oh my bad, heck] is going on. I would really like to know every single one of their rituals. I bet one you have to face a daemon they capture and pit you up against. But back on track, Grey Knights are a chapter, but they are MIB or in this case MIG, you notice anything of the warp and they are around you get the look into the here and bam memory gone and your back to fighting on the frontlines of frantic shooting and yelling. All prayer and fight and no talk make you a Grey Knight....

[Pyriel]

Except for the different wargear and certain command members and their field functions the GKs follow the exact same structure and layout as a normal codex astartes chapter.

This is strongly hinted in the imperial armour books.

 

As for mind scrubbing it is as with everything with the inquisition and its modus operandi, quite relative all depending on what strenght is applied to what defence and what region of the galaxy it takes place in.

 

There are instances where the inquisition makes small squads of marines or at least their corpses "dissapear" (read about this in the fluff about the "Q" ships but cant remember the sourse but I think it was a WD article)

since tehy saw to much or were part of something considered tainting.

There are also instances where the inquisition wages open warfare against whole chapters based only on their hunches.

 

Then there are instances where the inquisition or at least individual inquisitors (more then one though) really wants to wage war or declare sanctions against chapters but since those chapters are simply to strong with to strong and powerful allies there is nothing the inquisition can do so no, the inquisition is far from omnipotent.

If the =I= really got their way the space pups would have been "taken care of" after their little conflict (also anyone noticed the mutual respect the pups and the GKs showed one another?)

 

There are a bunch of inquisitors that openly try to prosecute chapters such as the blood angels and the salamanders for alledged taint and geneseed defects but they cant touch them since those chapters are to powerful.

 

What are you going to do, assault a salamanders strike cruiser and kidnap a couple of marines and then your =I= fortress is going to be leveled to gravel, the inquisitor lords responsible tortured to death and if anyone tries to intervene the entire space wolves chapter is just a phone call away and they would love nothing more then hammer a nail into the inquisitorial coffin.

 

Even the small instance where the =I= secretly withheld the corpses of the brothers of some small chapter was a very worrisome prospect for the inquisition out of fear of what might happen should the chapter find out about this, storm the =I= fort, kill everybody and extract their brothers.

[Ambro]

I dont think the inquisition are so weak that they couldnt wipe out a few chapters of spacemarines if they felt they where tainted. Remeber the inquistion has the whole force of the imperium at their command and so could easily wipe a chapter of spacemarines. I imagine the reason that they dont is because they know spacemarines are not easyily tainted and are too valuable to the imperium to destroy on the very slight chance they could be tainted. The way I understood the codex was that spacemarines would not be used as allys because it would increase their exposure to deamons which would eventually corupt even a spacemarine, although I dont think they would destroy a space marine just for having seen a deamon, they would have to of been exposed for a long time for the inquisition to deem the threat high enough. Also you mentioned some inquisitors wanting to exterminate certain chapters for geneseed defects such as the salamanders and space wolves, you have to remember that there are many different types of inquisitor randing from radical to puritan and so one or two inquisitors wanting to destroy a chapter wouldnt necessarily be taken seriously although if they could convince the lords of the inquisition then i'm sure that chapter would be gone before it knew it.

[RedSarge]

Then you best start with the Flesh Tearers and after them, the Relictors. Good luck, you'll need it.

I don't question the GK's ability to destory "regular" marines, however the missing chapters will not go down without a fight nor without notice. This could spark a much bigger war than what the Inquisition was expecting.

[Utsujin]

I think certain chapters would definately be missed by others, including their parent chapters and I don't think they would look at the Inquisition too highly anymore, and would rather give them the "stink eye."

[Heru]

Then you best start with the Flesh Tearers and after them, the Relictors. Good luck, you'll need it.

I don't question the GK's ability to destory "regular" marines, however the missing chapters will not go down without a fight nor without notice. This could spark a much bigger war than what the Inquisition was expecting.

The Relicitors already saw the nasty end of the Inquisition pain stick, but then they didn't make themselves any allies killing other Imperials and messing around with Daemon junk.

 

If the Inquisition went after the Space Wolves we'd end up with another Heresy era type war, in which the majority of the First Founders (Ultras, BA, Sals, WSs... all of them, maybe even the DA) and their successors would stand up and defend their well liked and respected brothers.

[Leethal]

Grey Knights are indeed a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes.

 

Afterall their designation is Chapter #666.

 

But thats where the similarities end, they are the muscle arm of the Ordos Malleus.

[Pyriel]

I dont think the inquisition are so weak that they couldnt wipe out a few chapters of spacemarines if they felt they where tainted. Remeber the inquistion has the whole force of the imperium at their command and so could easily wipe a chapter of spacemarines.

As Heru Talon said, some chapters are simply to strong and/or have to powerful friends for the inquisition to be able to touch them no matter how much they would want to.

The fluff is quite specific on that point.

 

The =I= with all its might stand united behind doing some serious investigation of the DA chapter and remember, its not war they want "just" a bit of snooping around but even that the mighty inquisition cant achieve.

 

As for waging war against chapters such as the first founders, forget it. Marines stand in many aspects above even the =I=. According to themselves tehy answer only to the emperor himself and their big brothers, the Custodes stand over the inquisition as well as the high lords themselves.

 

Remember how the black templars are described. Scattered as they are they are powerful enough but if they were united, the 6000 or so, of them, nothing would be able to stop them. Imagine the combined resources of 3-4 first founding chapters, they could seriously threaten the inquisition with destruction if all other chapters stepped aside.

[Orisis]

Hmmm. What you are suggesting is ultimately another Heresy.

 

Most organisations would be eliminated by 3-4 Founding Space Marine Chapters descending on them. However, I cannot envisage other servants of the Imperium (such as the numerous Guard regiments), who hold the Inquisition as an ultimate authority standing idly by. Isolated and alone, the Inquistion means nothing. Its their authority to requisition resources and military strength (both Navy and Armies) that gives them their power.

 

After all, who would dare refuse an Inquisitor?

 

I would be interested though in some fluff reference to SM>Inq. I don't recall coming across this and have always thought that the Inquistion is the next authority down from the Emperor himself. Considering they are the only people able to destroy entire planets and condemn billions of the Emperors servants to death.

[Luther - the fallen]

After all, who would dare refuse an Inquisitor?

 

if the choice was between doing what the bloke in a fancy robe with a bil -][- on it said or listening to the giant in the near invincible armour, whom you've been taught since you were a little boy, were the indestructible gods of war, I'd side with the big dudes in armour..

 

but that's me.. I think several of the regiments of the IG would side with the marines, and most chapters that know their parrent chapter would join them through loyalty (read UM, IF, DA and BA successors), and the result there of, as mentioned before, would be another Heresy.

 

Luther..

[Pyriel]

After all, who would dare refuse an Inquisitor?

Lets see...

Dark Angels, Salamanders and Space Wolves come to mind instantly. And that even without calling for support amongst their children chapter and other allies.

 

Face it, if the =I= would want to wage war against the entire adeptus astartes the =I= would be totally annihilated.

They can prosecute isolated smaller chapters or apparently renegade chapters with the aid of loyal marines but that´s about it.

 

Also when it comes to the whole destroy planets, who do you think does just that? Its almost always the astartes who are called on to destroy a planet or aid the inquisition in whatever they do so the =I= is heavily dependent on the marines while the marines, if it came to that, wouldnt care less about the inquisition.

 

There is no heresy in these thoughts either, this IS how the Imperium works, a constand balance of power and/or the working towards roughly the same goal.

[Melissia]

Face it, if the =I= would want to wage war against the entire adeptus astartes the =I= would be totally annihilated.

It would more likely be the other way around. Because it wouldn't begin with an open declaration of war... bur rather... a few accidents taking out key heroes. Sabotage causing a warp drive to fail and make large contingents of Space Marines to be lost in the warp. Requests for help not fulfilled. Shipments of supplies and equipment rerouted through "accidental" paperwork mistakes. Muddled intelligence gathering leading to Space Marines getting in over their heads. And so on and so forth.

 

 

=I= is far, far more subtle than you give credit for. The vast majority of their work is not on the field of battle, especially for the Ordo Hereticus.

 

 

 

Not saying they actually WOULD declare war on the entire Adeptus Astartes, covert or not (many =I=s respect the Space Marines even if they're annoyed at their independance) , but do not overestimate the power of the Space Marines. Not all threats stand in front of you with guns blazing.

[Ambro]

if the choice was between doing what the bloke in a fancy robe with a bil -][- on it said or listening to the giant in the near invincible armour, whom you've been taught since you were a little boy, were the indestructible gods of war, I'd side with the big dudes in armour..

 

You obviously dont understand inquisitors very well cause they are not just a bloke in a fancy robe, these guys have access to the best equipment in the imperium, if you had one looking down on you in terminator armour pointing a psycannon at your head then I think youd do what he says, especially considering how all imperial gaurd know how ruthlessly the inquisition deals with traitors.

 

Also as said above the inquisition are not stupid, they probably do not want to start a civil war within an already fragile imperium, but if they expect heresey then they have access to many forces superior to space marines, first the massive bulk of the imperial guard will always be troublesome to deal with, next you have assassins who are tougher and more deadly even than space marines, and finally you have grey knights who's geneseed is rumoured to have come from the emperor himself and the grandmaster of the grey knights is a highlord of the inquisition. Plus many space marines chapters are loyal to the inquisition as they represent the emperors will and an inquisitor has a great amount of respect from all space marine chapters.

 

As Heru Talon said, some chapters are simply to strong and/or have to powerful friends for the inquisition to be able to touch them no matter how much they would want to. The fluff is quite specific on that point.

 

Some chapters do have a very strong standing within the imperium which would make it very difficult for the inquisition to do anything about it if it wanted to although these chapters are usually allys of the inquisition anyway, although if the inquisition deemed the threat high enough for them to have to deal with it then i'd hardly say they couldnt touch them, for a start they'd probably be able to assasinate some of leaders within the chapter.

 

As for waging war against chapters such as the first founders, forget it. Marines stand in many aspects above even the =I=. According to themselves tehy answer only to the emperor himself and their big brothers, the Custodes stand over the inquisition as well as the high lords themselves.

 

Actually I understood the other way round that the inquisition was the highest authority able to requisition space marines, although the space marine chapter could refuse but they would usually respect the inquisition and would do as they ask.

 

Remember how the black templars are described. Scattered as they are they are powerful enough but if they were united, the 6000 or so, of them, nothing would be able to stop them. Imagine the combined resources of 3-4 first founding chapters, they could seriously threaten the inquisition with destruction if all other chapters stepped aside.

 

Remeber the inquisition is an organisation based on Terra and so a chapter wishing to destroy the inquisition would have to attack Terra, getting past the many defences of Terra including the defenders of the emperors throne would be an almost impossible task in itself enless there was a mass heresey, they also have many allys on call at a moments notice including the Titans on Mars and the whole chapter of Grey Knights on Saturns moon Titan which are both right next door so to speak. I think you underestimate the power of inquistion if you think they can be destroyed by a few chapters.