Are GK considered a chapter of the Adeptus Astartes?

[- 7eAL -]

As for waging war against chapters such as the first founders, forget it. Marines stand in many aspects above even the =I=. According to themselves tehy answer only to the emperor himself and their big brothers, the Custodes stand over the inquisition as well as the high lords themselves.

Actually I understood the other way round that the inquisition was the highest authority able to requisition space marines, although the space marine chapter could refuse but they would usually respect the inquisition and would do as they ask.

A representative of the Inquisition is always included amongst the High Lords, though the Inquisition as a whole has greater authority than the council. Any member of the council can be accused of heresy and then judged by the Inquisition. It is not clearly stated whether Custodes hold authority over the Inquisition, but the Custodes do not always hold enough political power to maintain a seat on the council of High Lords. Presumeably, they are not normally subject to the scrutiny of the Inquisition because the Inquisition automatically assumes their loyalty, but if it comes down to a serious issue then the Inquisition always has greater political power, regardless of its "blanket" authority over all individuals of the Imperium.

 

Space Marines generally work on request or on their own initiative, and are considered independent organizations, but not above the authority of the Inquisition. A chapter has the right to refuse any request - however, many chapters hold ties and debts to the Inquisition or to individual Inquisitors, and refusal to honor these agreements will put them in lower standing with the Inquisition and with the greater organization of the Administratum, Ministorum and so on. These organization can cut off supplies and resources, refuse them support, sanction size limitations or even accuse them of mutation (because geneseed is regularly returned to Mars for analysis by the Magos Biologis).

 

A chapter may have its own level of military strength, but the Inquisition is not necessarily a military force and would not deal with a rogue or traitor chapter through the use of force. For example, the Celestial Lions chapter was decimated by Orks, but were deliberately dispatched by the Inquisition: they were promised additional support from the Inquisition and other chapters, but none ever arrived and the remaining men had to pull out on their own. Similarly, the Soul Drinkers chapter was declared Excommunicate Traitoris and so they became legitimate targets for other Imperial forces. The Inquisition can dispatch other loyal Marines, Sisters, Guard, Navy and so on to pursue and destroy the traitor chapter. The Inquisition does not need to use any of its own resources to cause serious problems for Marines, but when they do, they are extremely unforgiving: they would most likely declare Exterminatus Extremis upon the chapter homeworld, and then pursue any remnant battlegroups to the limit of the Astronomican or into the Eye of Terror.

 

 

Remember how the black templars are described. Scattered as they are they are powerful enough but if they were united, the 6000 or so, of them, nothing would be able to stop them. Imagine the combined resources of 3-4 first founding chapters, they could seriously threaten the inquisition with destruction if all other chapters stepped aside.

Remeber the inquisition is an organisation based on Terra and so a chapter wishing to destroy the inquisition would have to attack Terra, getting past the many defences of Terra including the defenders of the emperors throne would be an almost impossible task in itself enless there was a mass heresey, they also have many allys on call at a moments notice including the Titans on Mars and the whole chapter of Grey Knights on Saturns moon Titan which are both right next door so to speak. I think you underestimate the power of inquistion if you think they can be destroyed by a few chapters.

The Inquisition is an amorphous organization sactioned by the Emperor. There is no distinct hierarchy of leadership, because even the representative on the council of High Lords is only an elected representative - he or she does not necessarily hold any greater authority within the Inquisition. The location on Terra is only a political seat rather than a vital headquarters, because Inquisitors operate independently as they see fit and so the Inquisition has no single centralized headquarters that controls all of its actions.

 

If the Marines were to turn on the Inquisition, that technically means that they renege on the will of the Emperor because the Inquisition holds such great authority under him. Many chapters supposedly chafe and distrust the Inquisition, but since they are indoctrinated to obey the will of the Emperor they generally agree to obey the Inquisition so long as the orders they recieve are not somehow in conflict with their own beliefs and goals.

 

If the First Founding Chapters turn on the Inquisition, they will be declared excommunicate for one reason or another. If these parent chapters are attacked, then their successor chapters will similary turn on the Inquisiton, and there will form a chain that results in the Imperium going into direct conflict with the independent Space Marines. Very few chapters will honor their agreements with the Inquisition rather than their parent chapters, but these loyal Marines will be joined by the Sisters of Battle (some of whom apparently despise the Marines), the Guard, the Navy (who generally have greater fleet capabilities), the Titan and Skitarii legions of Mars, as well as the Temple Assassins and the Custodes on Terra. All of these organizations operate under the command of the Inquisition, independent or not, and though they will not be able to defend Terra indefinitely, they do present a daunting force.

 

If only the six thousand Marines of the Black Templars, for example, were to move against Terra to fight the Inquisition, then they would likely be stopped and questioned by the Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists and other chapters stationed near Terra and chapters loyal to the Inquisition. The Imperial Fists may step aside if another chapter says that they are after the Inquisition, but they will not release their given responsibility to protect Terra as a whole. The Imperial Fists in particular are probably able to call upon more support than the Black Templars, as well, because they hold a central location in protecting the region around Terra and have a somewhat longer history of connections with other First Founding Chapters and have more successors to call upon (though the Black Templars are one of their successor chapters).

 

Generally speaking, it would take the leadership of a man even more charismatic than Horus to unite the Space Marine chapters enough to move against Terra. Horus was able to sway half the existing Space Marines because he was already the chosen "son" of the Emperor and because Space Marine chapters were huge to begin with. Some five to ten thousand Marines of a single chapter following the leadership of their father Primarch is much easier to believe than five to ten thousand men of different chapters following the leadership of a single Grand Master who would never be able to achieve the same level of status as Horus had.

[Pyriel]

It would more likely be the other way around. Because it wouldn't begin with an open declaration of war... bur rather... a few accidents taking out key heroes. Sabotage causing a warp drive to fail and make large contingents of Space Marines to be lost in the warp. Requests for help not fulfilled. Shipments of supplies and equipment rerouted through "accidental" paperwork mistakes. Muddled intelligence gathering leading to Space Marines getting in over their heads. And so on and so forth.

 

 

=I= is far, far more subtle than you give credit for. The vast majority of their work is not on the field of battle, especially for the Ordo Hereticus.

 

 

 

Not saying they actually WOULD declare war on the entire Adeptus Astartes, covert or not (many =I=s respect the Space Marines even if they're annoyed at their independance) , but do not overestimate the power of the Space Marines. Not all threats stand in front of you with guns blazing.

Well, you are right and you made a very good argument. But you missed a couple of points.

You forget that there are chapters out there that have the skill and ways to detects such things.

Powerful librarians will devine such things and the strongest chapters have powerful friends and allies in the form of other chapters, guard regiments, naval fleets, OTHER inquisitors, planetary governors etc etc.

 

So you on the otehr hand give far to little credit for the subtlety and intelligence of the marines.

 

Besides the =I= would never suceed if a war was declared on the astartes as the =I= is extremely fractionated and at all times as a whole strive to maintain a balance within its own ranks, be it by self destructive measures.

As soon as the =I= would make such a grand scale move many inquisitors would side with the marines, helping them and giving them with all the inside intel that they´d need.

It´s all a question of power.

 

In reality the fight, shoulod a hypotetic scenario where the =I= would go up against the Astartes, be won by the side that is the least fractionated and no matter how we turn and twist things the marine chapters will always be more in tune with one another fighting on the same side then the inquisition in its whole.

Especially with parts of the inquisition siding with the marines.

 

although if the inquisition deemed the threat high enough for them to have to deal with it then i'd hardly say they couldnt touch them, for a start they'd probably be able to assasinate some of leaders within the chapter.

As I said, a project on that scale would by its very nature warn the chapter in advance (especially if it is a big and powerful one with allies in every dark place) and their librarians have detected far subtler events then "project-lets-assassinate-Calgar" in previous times.

 

It is said that basically nothing could stand against the combined black templars so I take it when the =I= decides to delete a first founding chapter and it calls for aid and 3-4 additional FF chapters show up as support the =I= will be in serious trouble.

It wouldnt be to odd if some of the very armies arranged against the marines should side with them.

 

Actually I understood the other way round that the inquisition was the highest authority able to requisition space marines, although the space marine chapter could refuse but they would usually respect the inquisition and would do as they ask.

All they can do is to ask and petition a chapter to give aid.

Many chapters do so due to long standing oaths but then all this is a give and take deal when all "gifts" are in time paid back with services and deals and other gifts.

 

Marines are the ones that stand the closest to the emperor, they all have his blood in their veins.

The ecclestariarchy for example make great fuss about commanding the Imperium (next to the inquisition) but marines basically spit on the church (most chapters at least) as they preech a creed that differs on a fundamental basis from what the marines belive in.

 

The =I= have absolutely no power what so ever over the Astartes (on a grander sale), only the high lords of terra can decide such big things like a creation of chapters etc and although the =I= is part of the high lords of terra ALL high lords must ultimately obey the Adeptus Custodes.

They and they alone have the ultimate power over everyone including the inquisition and technically speaking marines, should all go to hell, answer directly to the Man himself and that means the Custodes.

 

This doesnt prevent the =I= from deleting wayward chapters and meddling in pretty much everything but still, despite their fervent wishes the =I= with all their might and power and subtlety have still not even been able to take a peek inside the dark angels organisation.

 

Remeber the inquisition is an organisation based on Terra and so a chapter wishing to destroy the inquisition would have to attack Terra, getting past the many defences of Terra including the defenders of the emperors throne would be an almost impossible task

Who said the marines would want to get past the defenses of the throne?

That the =I= is based on terra means nothing. If the Custodes (marines) say the =I= is to be deleted it will be so (although after a great deal of fuss).

If the Custodes tell the head =I= honcho that he is summoned before the throne then he better hurry and if he is then told to take his =I= and realocate into the eye of terror then so be it.

 

they also have many allys on call at a moments notice including the Titans on Mars and the whole chapter of Grey Knights on Saturns moon Titan

The GK are nothing if a war like that would come to pass. One chapter against a thousand?

One chapter highly specialised against daemons facing 1000 chapters or at the least a handful of first foundign chapters specialised at killing chaos marines, well there would be few GKs left.

 

Also what do titans have to do with this?

Titans are controlled by the general fabricator of mars...adn this fellow is ultimately controlled and ordered by you guessed, the Adeptus Custodes.

 

Should a titan legion or army dissobey they will be declared excomunicae and there are hundreds of forge worlds who would like nothing more then to take up their mantle and get the fabricating honours for themselves.

 

 

 

My point is that the Astartes ARE closer to the emperor then "normal" humans no matter if they call themselves inquisitors or high lords of terra.

The Astarted ultimatedly also answer only to the Emperor himself.

And should there be open war between the =I= and the Astarted the =I= will be destroyed from within by inter struggle and fractioning.

 

And finally, should things really hit the great fan in the sky I just cant see the Emperor allying himfels with the =I= against his Astartes. It would be the opposite, the =I= would be ordered to stand down by the Custodes and if they refuse THEY would be declared heretics.

Also, who do you think most armies would follow if open warfare occured, the hated =I= or he noble astartes that all martial people look up to?

[Pyriel]

Generally speaking, it would take the leadership of a man even more charismatic than Horus to unite the Space Marine chapters enough to move against Terra.

As would to unite the inquisition.

But this is strictly a never-happen hypotetical question.

 

It wouldnt neccesarily need to be one man, it could be the throne itself.

Imagine the Custodes calling 300 chapter masters to attend before the throne and they would hear that marines must stand united against the corrupt =I=.

 

The leadership of the Imperium are 12 men, the inquisitorial representative is just one man.

The nice thing is that all these people constantly fight for power and if they could they would happily assassinate each others.

 

Thus, if ONE faction declares war on all marine chapters there will be a power struggle amongst the others and alliances would be set up supporting the side that has the higher prospect of winning.

 

The inquisition itself would shatter completely. The entire =I= can be likened by a slab of over-tempered steel. The only thing that keeps it super hard are all the inter tensions made by all the microscopical cracks permeating the whole structure. All parts work against a generally accepted norm but they achieve this work by always struggling against one another.

A structure like this works just fine...untill a gigantic event smashes a big crack throughout the organisation (like the sudden and also contested orders of "hey, lets kill all marines") and it shatters instantly just like a glass dropped to the floor.

 

I still maintain that ultimately the Custodes hold the key to the victor of such a conflict.

Should they call out to the chapters and say that the =I= is unstable and needs to be clensed then this will unite the chapters better then a hundred horuses could ever do.

 

 

An example (and ponder this because this is heavy fluff stuff):

Say the Emperor came to such a time in his plans that he decided he needs to "wake" up.

Lets assume that this needs to be done in his thrown room so he simply just cant be reborn again but needs to actually step up from his throne.

Now to do so there must be an active involvement from the inquisition as teh throne needs to be repaired and the Custodes cannot do it.

It is also known that overall the =I= does not want the Empror to "wake up" (sme factions want but a ruthless balance is maintained).

Basically this happens:

The Man needs to be reborn but the Inquisition and those that hold power do not want to permtit this as they would loose power (and various other reasons).

What do the Custodes do? Let assume they have proper channels to contact pretty much any chapter they want.

 

Where would the Emperor turn in order to burn out the cancer that keeps him imprisoned in his current state?

[Melissia]

You forget that there are chapters out there that have the skill and ways to detects such things.

No I didn't. So what if a few chapters can? THey'd be alone against the galaxy. They'd be <DELETED BY THE INQUISITION>ed.

 

Powerful librarians will devine such things and the strongest chapters have powerful friends and allies in the form of other chapters, guard regiments, naval fleets, OTHER inquisitors, planetary governors etc etc.

And powerful inquisitors will have friends amongst the Marines tha will attack other Marines, except, of course, that the Inquisition is KNOWN for such power and connections, while the average SM chapter is more likely to be beholden to the Inquisition than the other way around.

 

It´s all a question of power.

And the Inquisition has more. The Astartes have independance, but nowhere NEAR the authority of the Inquisition.

 

In reality the fight, shoulod a hypotetic scenario where the =I= would go up against the Astartes, be won by the side that is the least fractionated and no matter how we turn and twist things the marine chapters will always be more in tune with one another fighting on the same side then the inquisition in its whole.

Especially with parts of the inquisition siding with the marines.

The Space Marines are also highly fractured in nature. In this war, many chapters would side against the other Astartes with the Inquisition, others would strike out as independants. Meanwhile, the Inquisition works BEST fractured. It is decentralized, and thus unpredictable or very difficult to predict even for Librarians' psychic powers.

 

It is said that basically nothing could stand against the combined black templars

Which is complete bull of course, nothing but an attempt to make them look better. Similar statements are made about all armies.

[Amit]

Back onto Original Topic...

 

Yes, GK's are a Space Marine Chapter/Adeptus Astartes BUT they are solely and exclusively part of the fighting arm of the Daemonhunters. However, their organisation, background and sole purpose are quite unique.

 

The way I see it Adeptus Astartes; the 'Humanities Shield' (IA Vol 3); Multi-role and capabilties and able to prosecute all kinds of warfare (from surgical strikes, guerrilla warfare to prolonged sieges). Grey Knights; to confront and destroy the Daemonic PERIOD!

 

This is probably been mentioned lots of times in this post.

[Heru]

Ok lets say with the hypothetical situation that a group of powerful Inquisitor Lords decide to move against the Space Wolves. First off they'd need more than a bag of dirty tricks (Officio Sabatorium/Assassintorium) to take on the Homeworld based Chapter (Homeworld Chapters don't conveniently fly around in Chapter sized fleets that can get sabotauged and Warp lost like the Fire Hawks). They'd need to get troops to take on the Wolves, so they'd have to call on the Imperial Guard, and some Space Marine Chapters (this would alert many people loyal to the Space Wolves, such as Guard commanders who have fought alongside them, to many Inquisitors themselves as well as other Space Marine Chapters). We'd then have not only many of the First Founding Chapters rushing to the Wolves aid, but many of their Successors and many Imperial Guard / Navy units and Inquisitors (remember the Ultramarines virtually run their own little Empire).

 

It would spiral very badly for those Inquisitor Lords, as if they really really wanted to remove the Wolves a Heresy type conflict would be inevitable. The mistake is to assume the Astartes would be alone, or it too small numbers to win such a conflict. Heck even if it got to the point where it was Astartes + allies vs the Inquisition + Allies you know the Astartes and their allies would win even if they had to besiege Terra again (Horus Heresy and Age of Apostay).

 

And if the Astartes are in the right the Custodes would be on their side, and if they are on their side so are the Sisters of Battle (remember the Age of Apostay people).

[Pyriel]

No I didn't. So what if a few chapters can? THey'd be alone against the galaxy. They'd be <DELETED BY THE INQUISITION>ed.

lOl

And how would they be deleted? The =I= cant even delete a primitive warband that is the soul drinkers and they dont even have a fleet to speak of to run away with.

 

And powerful inquisitors will have friends amongst the Marines tha will attack other Marines, except, of course, that the Inquisition is KNOWN for such power and connections, while the average SM chapter is more likely to be beholden to the Inquisition than the other way around.

Ah, 4 lapdog chapters against 1000 proud marine chapters that dustrust the inquisition:lol:

 

And the Inquisition has more. The Astartes have independance, but nowhere NEAR the authority of the Inquisition.

Marines order the inquisition and can drag them before the throne.

Also no troops in the galaxy are are skilled and good at planetary assaults and ship to ship or other baording/storming warfare.

The inquisition is rotten to the core and full of interpolitics and inter power struggles, backstabbing, inner clensings and powerful dogmas that stand teeth to teeth all in one huge delicate power balance.

Good luck uniting THAT against a thousand chapters with the word from the throne guardians themselves uniting them :D

 

The Space Marines are also highly fractured in nature.

Not nearly close to the inquisition. Sadly the =I= barely work as it is. They direct just as much power and resources at fighting their own rivals or warring against their own factions as they fight against mankinds enemies.

This is the sad truth and no matter how you try to twist it the chapters are light years from the same destructive interfighting as the inquisition is.

At most two widely opposing chapters such as the DA and SW will look at each others with distrust but still fight against the common enemy whereas one inquisitor will have no qualms massacring another inquisitor, his army and the entire project he was undertaking simply to get ahead in the power ladder.

Maybe you ought to read up on the Anphelion project.

 

The loyal marines fight in occasional small skirmishes based on a pride thing but are still brotehrs and act like such. The =I= act like traitorous and backstabbing courtesans at the kinds court.

Its simply laughable to say that the backstabbers would unite and work together with more efficiency.

 

Which is complete bull of course, nothing but an attempt to make them look better. Similar statements are made about all armies.

Ah. And your baseless claims of the inquisition working better when they are busy killing and backstabbng each others is not bull? :)

 

 

 

 

The way I see it Adeptus Astartes; the 'Humanities Shield' (IA Vol 3); Multi-role and capabilties and able to prosecute all kinds of warfare (from surgical strikes, guerrilla warfare to prolonged sieges). Grey Knights; to confront and destroy the Daemonic PERIOD!

Cool. It would give us something more to go on in the GK projects.

The people that want to kit out the GKs with lascannons ought to take strenght from this.

 

Ok lets say with the hypothetical situation that a group of powerful Inquisitor Lords decide to move against the Space Wolves. First off they'd need more than a bag of dirty tricks (Officio Sabatorium/Assassintorium) to take on the Homeworld based Chapter (Homeworld Chapters don't conveniently fly around in Chapter sized fleets that can get sabotauged and Warp lost like the Fire Hawks). They'd need to get troops to take on the Wolves, so they'd have to call on the Imperial Guard, and some Space Marine Chapters (this would alert many people loyal to the Space Wolves, such as Guard commanders who have fought alongside them, to many Inquisitors themselves as well as other Space Marine Chapters). We'd then have not only many of the First Founding Chapters rushing to the Wolves aid, but many of their Successors and many Imperial Guard / Navy units and Inquisitors (remember the Ultramarines virtually run their own little Empire).

 

It would spiral very badly for those Inquisitor Lords, as if they really really wanted to remove the Wolves a Heresy type conflict would be inevitable. The mistake is to assume the Astartes would be alone, or it too small numbers to win such a conflict. Heck even if it got to the point where it was Astartes + allies vs the Inquisition + Allies you know the Astartes and their allies would win even if they had to besiege Terra again (Horus Heresy and Age of Apostay).

 

And if the Astartes are in the right the Custodes would be on their side, and if they are on their side so are the Sisters of Battle (remember the Age of Apostay people).

This is so true.

Maybe you could help me to talk some sense into Melissia.

Since accordign to Melissia all chapters will start killing each others, the =I= will assassinate everything that moves, the Custodes arent even adressed and the =I= will become a franchmans beaurocratic wet dream when it comes to efficiency while all the inter struggle and backstabbing just make the =I= super strong, not to mentin that all citizen, armies and fleets who to a man hate the inquisition will gladly side against the legendary angels of death (of whom entire planetary and sector populations have their ancient pasts to thank for).

Geez, give me a break.