Need help Wth Chaos

[travh20]

Hi, I am having trouble beating SM's (or anything for that matter) with my Black Legion force. I know it must be my list. Here is what I use, any advice would be very useful:

 

Chaos Termi Lord w/ lightning claws and MoK

 

2 10 man Chosen Squads, 1 W/ PF, lascannon and plasma gun, 1 w/ MoK and PF w/ 3 power weapons

 

2 10 man Bezerker squads in Rinos (1 sqd w/ PF & melta bomb, 1 sqd w/ PW & melta bomb)

 

SOmetimes I can squeeze in a 5 man possessed squad with MoS or MoK if I change a few things up.

 

Now this list get owned all the time. I was thinking of ditching the Chosen and making them regular CSM's. Anything I could do with the models I have (that list is everything)?

 

I do want to get a Greater Deamon, and maybe a Land Raider to ferry around the bezerkers, but dont think I can put the Chaos Terminator Lord in with a bezerker squad, can I?

[Brumgert Da Mad]

First how are they beating you? Are they charging you or standing back? Are they our manuvering you or going gun line ussually?

[travh20]

Well, pretty much they shoot me to pieces while I try to get into assault range.

[Sarrat]

Bet good money he's getting his pants shot off.

Almost no anti-tank ( I see LC and metla bombs)

Ditch the Chosen, invest in some heavies. (Oblits,Vindi, Pred, Defiler etc)

Get some icons and couple small squads of lesser demons to tar pit and distract.

[Plague Pie]

One of your Chosen Squads seems a little split in its role. Having a Lascannon, PF, and Plasma gun means you have something for extreme ranges, something for mid-range, and something for CC. This rounding out may seem like a good idea, but Squads generally perform better when they have a distinct purpose. You have tons of PFs throughout the army and you seem to want to get into CC. My first suggestion would be to ditch the Lascannon and let the PFs do the vehicle killing (Lascannons are to pricey in the first place, IMO). Spend those points getting your second Zerker Squad a PF and an Icon of Chaos Undivided for your unmarked Chosen.

[Zeller]

May I suggest Rhinos?

 

Perhaps a couple of deep striking units to throw your opponent off balance?

[Kalrik]

Hi, I am having trouble beating SM's (or anything for that matter) with my Black Legion force. I know it must be my list. Here is what I use, any advice would be very useful:

 

Chaos Termi Lord w/ lightning claws and MoK

 

2 10 man Chosen Squads, 1 W/ PF, lascannon and plasma gun, 1 w/ MoK and PF w/ 3 power weapons

 

2 10 man Bezerker squads in Rinos (1 sqd w/ PF & melta bomb, 1 sqd w/ PW & melta bomb)

 

SOmetimes I can squeeze in a 5 man possessed squad with MoS or MoK if I change a few things up.

 

Now this list get owned all the time. I was thinking of ditching the Chosen and making them regular CSM's. Anything I could do with the models I have (that list is everything)?

 

I do want to get a Greater Deamon, and maybe a Land Raider to ferry around the bezerkers, but dont think I can put the Chaos Terminator Lord in with a bezerker squad, can I?

 

SO Many problems...

 

#1, Lord, it works fine, its a CC eating monster, it can do its job

 

#2 the chosen squads, I'd suggest droping the PF, Lascannon, plsmagun, and run something like tihs:

 

Chosen: 2-3x Meltagun, 1x Flamer 1-2x Power Weapon Mark:CG or if you MUST Mark CG == Templates are powerful but the meltagun is the absolute KING Tank buster. -- A squad of this type, is cheaper, and all its weapons serve the same function, move-shoot-charge.

 

#3 Khorne Beserkers don't need meltabombs, if they have powerfists, STR9 on the charge, will kill most tanks with their 5 attacks. give both powerfists.

 

#4 Do not EVER EVER consider possessed an option if winning is a primary concern of yours, if you're upset about losing' stop using possesed, I'm sure someone is about to reply and disagree with this point, but if you like winning especially against marines, you need to use more efficent choices, ESPECIALLY come october when they get a new codex of insanity.

 

#5 Yes, a Terminator lord can ride in a land raider with 8 Khornites, (terminator armor takes up two slots)

 

Moving forward:

 

It sounds like you and your opponent play games with all the models you own, instead of at a "set points limit" say 1000pts or whatever, it would be helpful to know what you're facing on a regular basis, if its armor, or a marine gun line there are things you can do about that

 

Anti-armor options: Obliterators , Raptors with Meltaguns , Chosen in a rhino with 5x Meltaguns, these all aid in armor busting

 

Anti-infantry options: Defiler, MORE BOLTERS!

 

Try and analyze what beats you, and then let us know!

 

Sorry for the harsh-or-abrupt sounding of this post, I was trying to type it really fast before I ran out the door!

[empchildrenbob]

you should get rid of the chosen and get obliterators or a vin or a defiler (sorry if its been repeated)

[Smurfalypse]

Just a point of fact here...I run 10 possessed in my 1500 point lists standard and i win easily 95% of my games, including tournies. Most of this game is tactic's not what model you place on the board. Just my two cents vs the possessed hater :)

[Gerrick]

I can't think of a single reason I'd use my possessed over terminators other then the flavor ... But your right, tactics are always more important. I think the important thing if your getting shot apart is to limit the amount of shooting you take, and Rhino's are a wonderful choice for getting up there quick so you only take that first turn of rapid fire, and much cheaper then that Land Raider. Now, Land Raider, that lord and 4 terminators with Lightning Claws? That'd be a thing of beauty.

[Allerka]

The Chosen definitely need some tweaking. I run a 10-man squad with 4x PGs, a ML, and a MoN. Kinda pricy, but infiltrating them into cover makes them virtually impossible to kill, and they do wonders for holding a flank.

 

Some bigger guns would be good, too. A dakka Predator can make for some cheap firepower on the go (though they're not quite as effective now with the reduced movement rules), though Obliterators can work good, too. 1K Sons are like Miracle-Weed against SMs, as well.

 

You should never get owned by SMs. I've yet to lose against SMs with the CSM codex, in fact I've yet to have anything less than an outright slaughter. Obviously that'll likely change with the new codex, though. :)

[chillin]

Your list is....well...bad.

And some of the squad builds are bad as well.

-

- You have a termi lord by himself, no other termi's, no LR. You you just walk him down the table till he gets his face shot off ? Or do you DS him and he has to stand there that turn and get his face shot off ?

- VERY bad build on those chosen squads. Lascannons, PF, plasma guns, they're all over the place, not to mention very expensive for what they can do. I find chosen usefull as 5 man infiltrating hvy weop/plas squads (125 pts). I have read that in 5th, you can outflank even if infiltrating squad is in rino (we haven't started playing 5th yet), if that is true the chosen load out with 2 meltas, maybe a flamer, IoCG and a PW champ like kalrik suggested would be good (but don't go all crazy and make it too expensive).

- I'd drop those brzrkrs down to 8, as they are good enough at 8.

 

*

couple of other things

- I know Smurf runs possessed successfully, but maybe a novice player like yourself might want to stay away from a tricky unit and stick to the basics.

- some rino tactics to hopefully get you into CC with out getting shot up too much :

Start rinos out of LoS 1st turn if possible or at least in cover. Use cover to advance when possible even if it is not THE most direct way of getting where you want to go, if no cover pop smk.

X armor on rinos always. And if unit does have to disembark early, they can do it behind rino to stay out of shooting the rest of that turn.

Good Luck, hope this helps

[travh20]

Thanks guys. All good suggestions. I obviousy need some more stuff. I do have one more SM melta gun I could give to one fo the chosen. Other then that What is in the list is what I have. Most of my resources are going into building up my Ultramarines right now so I cant really go crazy on buying new models for my Black Legion.

 

I will tinker around with what I got and come back with a new list.

 

Thanks!

[Smurfalypse]

Might want to try out normal CSMs instead of the zerkers. Zerkers do rip in melee but there is the small problem of getting there vs a gunline type army, you end up with no transports and have to walk there. For less points you can get a unit with an icon of khorne (so same amount of attacks, though lower WS and no furious charge) and you can take the ever popular flamer/melta combo within the unit.

 

Terms are good. Im a firm firm believer that you take them either as a 3/4 man squad OR a full 10 man unit walking up the board, there is kinda no in between for these guys. If you take a smaller squad for deep striking then a heavy flamer and some combi-meltas are the way to go. If you decide a bigger unit for massing on the board take the two reapers and 5+ combi-plasma, they get within 24 and can really put a unit out of the game.

 

Ive never been a fan of chosen BUT that is not to say they arnt good or cant pull their weight, they just arnt my style i prefer the possessed. With the new 5th rules of the outflank, you can actually just take the chosen as is kited out with some assault weaponry and move on from a side board to create some havoc.

 

There are a bunch of tricky things you can do with this codex. Havocs with nothing but assault weapons (flamers and meltaguns). Chosen rolling on from a board edge with 4 plasma guns and unloading their hate on a unit.

 

From your list i dont think your lord fits with a small unit of terms. Its not a bodyguard so he can be targetted out in melee and wont last but a round or two on average. You might think about just running a daemon prince or combi-melta him up with term armor so he can at least drop a vehicle when he hits the board.

 

All in all you need to find a tactic that suits your personality and your legions/renegades background and build around the idea. This will make the games much more enjoyable and they will turn into about more than winning and losing, and as time goes on you will get better and better as you understand the tactics and what your army tries to accomplish on the battlefield.

 

Good luck to ya and if you need any more advice feel free to post all ya want, we are all here to help.

[Sception]

A) Assaulty terminator lord is ok... if you've got terminators to run him with, and particularly if you have a land raider to drive them in. If you're deep striking the terminators, you'd probably prefer a sorcerer for the better shooting options on the turn they arrive.

 

He's not bad, mind, I'd just reccomend holding off on him for a while. Let him run small battles from the command deck of his warship - he doesn't need to make planetfall unless the stakes are particularly high. Alternatively, model up a power armor version of the same character, and say he saves the heavy suit for big battles.

 

 

As for what you will want for a hero in smaller games:

 

An undivided or slaaneshii lord with a daemon weapon isn't bad; neither is a khornate lord with power armor and lightning claws.

 

The Daemon Prince is, point for stat, the most efficient of your HQ options, and also gives you a unique element to your army which can respond to individual threats - just try not to send him into melee unescorted, use him instead to shore up fights that need support. Also, don't leave him open to fire - hop from cover to cover, don't just rocket him up the middle. Always give him wings to help with this, otherwise spice to taste. I like wind of chaos, myself, but really, keep him cheap or bulk him up - as long as he has wings you can't really go wrong on this guy.

 

A sorcerer can be very nice support for infantry, arguably better then the lord since they come with the force weapon built in, and can buy warptime if they need more killing. If you want to spend a lot of points, a tzeentch sorcerer who can cast warptime and activate the force weapon each round of combat is pretty scary. If you like cheap, at a mear 110 points a sorcerer with doombolt has a decent number of power weapon attacks in close combat and a nice shooting ability on top of it - an excellant character to augment the dual close/melee range abilities of a basic CSM squad.

 

 

Side Note: Daemon Princes and Sorcerers with the mark of slaanesh can also make use of the Lash cheese, dragging enemies closer to assault, and pushing them off of objectives, bunching them up for blast or template death. If you care about winning, it's the most powerfull tool in the army. If you care about making friends, you might not want to use it in a casual environment. But a prince or sorcerer with the mark of slaanesh can always choose to use other powers in casual games, since psychic powers aren't typically modeled. It's something to consider, although with your heavy khorne leanings, a slaaneshii general isn't going to win you many flavor points.

 

 

 

The chosen...

 

Ok, that's too many chosen. Remember that in 5e, only troops can claim objectives. Like all units, chosen can contest objectives, but as it is the enemy only has to kill two of your units to prevent you from having any chance of winning 2/3 of 5e games. With your troops dead, the best you could hope for is a draw.

 

With that being the case, two big squads of chosen is just too many, and one of your squads is pretty general, and seems like it could serve just as well as a basic squad of CSMs. You'd want to drop the las for another special - two flamers, meltaguns, or plasmaguns would be better then mixing two different, imo. Keep the fist on the champ, keep the icon of chaos glory - the other icons aren't really worth it on CSMs. Adding a rhino wouldn't hurt.

 

 

The other chosen, try two meltaguns, two power weapons, and a champ with a power fist in a rhino, using the new flank march rules. You move on from the side and threaten tanks and heavy infantry. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't (flank march is still new to me), but it should be interesting, and give your opponants something to think about.

 

 

Troops:

Well, turn one of your chosen squads into a CSM squad, as above.

 

As for the berzerkers - they're great, but you want fists in both units. Drop the meltabombs to pay for it. Due to a quirk of the 5e wound allocation rules, you don't want your berzerker champs to strike at the same init as the rest of the squad, even if it means giving up that nice Init 5 on the charge.

 

 

Possessed are... cool. Great models. Not good, though. I'd drop them until you get into the swing of your army. Once you understand it, and get a few wins under your belt, you can think about something pretty but inefficient like possessed.

 

 

 

After that, you're going to want to add some ranged support, particularly antitank. A pair of oblits is nice, as is a defiler or a possessed vindicator. All are around 150 points, so go with what you like.

 

 

 

Tentative list:

 

Prince w/ wings

 

8 Chosen, Icon of Chaos Glory, 2x meltagun, 2x power weapon, champ with power fist

- Rhino with extra armor

 

10 Berzerkers, Champ with Power fist

- Rhino with extra armor

 

10 Berzerkers, Champ with Power Fist

- Rhino with extra armor

 

10 Chaos Space Marines, Icon of Chaos Glory, 2x special weapon (I'd take meltas, since you're shy on anti-tank, but plasma or flamer are also very good), champ with power fist

- Rhino with extra armor

 

Defiler with Battle Cannon and 2x close combat weapon.

 

That should leave you with about 50 points spare to customize the prince, or add combi weapons to a couple rhinoes or to the CSM champion in a 1,500 point list.

 

Notes: 10 kill points, 6 distinct elements, 3 scoring units, 44 models, light tank armor and high body count (for marines). assault bias, but a reliance on rhinoes. A couple tricks to catch the enemy off guard. Has some issues with anti tank since the defiler can scatter, and the meltas are short range and rely on rhinoes to reach targets.

 

 

 

Alternatively, you could put your terminator lord with 8 'zerkers in a land raider, but I think that would be more of a departure from your current model collection. If you were to go for that, you might try something like:

 

Termi lord of Khorne, L.Claws

8 Zerkers, fistichamp

Possessed Land Raider

 

10 CSMs, 2x special weapon (probably meltaguns), fistichamp, Icon of Chaos Glory

Rhino w/ ex.armor

 

10 CSMs, ditto

Rhino w/ ex.armor

 

2x Possessed Vindicator (or one Possessed vindi and a Defiler, or a vindi & 2 oblits... vindi's are probably best for the extra tank armor - the list would be a lot of tank armor for some enemies to deal with)

 

Should also have about 50 points spare to taylor bits.

 

Notes: 9 kill points, 5 distinct elements, 3 scoring units, only 34 models, leans heavily towards tank armor, relies heavily on a powerful shock assault unit, has some issues with anti-tank, since the vindis can scatter, and the land raider wants to be moving in the first turn or two.

 

 

 

Anyway, those are the directions I could imagine taking if I found myself with your model collection. Take it with a grain of salt, though. I've been playing chaos for a long time, but I haven't played all that much since the current codex came out, and 5e has really thrown me for a loop - I'm still getting my bearings back.