Anyone use lesser daemons?

[travh20]

I was thinking of getting some lesser deamons in my Black legion force, and even a greater demon too. Fluff wise they are pretty cool, and they seem to be almost as good as SM's in close combat. Anyone have any experience using lesser deamons, or greater demons for that matter?

[Deacoknight]

Fluff wise, they fit with armies like Word Bearers, Black Legion, and really any of the cult units.

 

Game wise, they are cheap assault marines. Instead of having to go headlong up the board they get to pop in and assault which is the trade off for the low save and the lack of jump packs. When I do use them, I normally field one squad of 15-20 and use them to support a shooting unit with rapid fire weapons (unit with 2 plasmaguns). They can come in, deal some damage and either hold a unit still for a turn or two or wipe them out and provide a little cover to your more expensive marine units.

 

The greater daemon I've found to be a crap shoot. I usually get it on the board far to early and it has to walk and take fire. AT that point, you're better off with a daemon price in my opinion.

[travh20]

I did proxy a greater demon the other night (with a giant Po from Kung Foo Panda, it was quite comical) and he came in at turn 2 and never made it to combat,a s he was blasted apart by lascannons and missile launchers. So I see what you mean.

 

I do want to try a force of lesser deamons (probably Bloodletter models). Tehy can come in and assault right away, that would be awsome.

[Massawyrm]

They can be fairly nasty when used properly. Being able to come down 6" from a rhino with an Icon, then assault 6", it allows you to assault soft units or tie up bigs ones while you get into better position. Had it screw me pretty hard last night as a unit of five dropped in and rushed two melta attack bikes, locking them down and ultimately protecting his LR full of termis long enough to let them pop my LR. they're also great for reigning troops onto an objective, then scooting off to secure another.

[Roultox]

20 Lesser daemons is about as much as a unit of marines numbering 10, with 2 gun upgrades, champ with weapon upgrade and a cheap icon+rhino.

2 Lesser daemons have 1/3 chance to save, two daemons doubles that chance to 2/3rds.

No ranged firepower, they may assault the turn they arrive (High chance of no casualties before melee) double the attacks of a unit of 10 marines, great for support after marines rapid fire from a rhino, then assault with daemons.

The Lessers do very well against units like genestealers, orks, Certain Gaunts, Harlequins, Incubi, Banshees, Monstrous critters and non terminator armor characters.

 

They have their uses, use them wisely.

[the jeske]

another words , they have a use in tailored armies or certain army builds that go with 1.85/2k pts . but in smaller games or all comers lists they just take up space for normal csm[pr PMs] and tend to die really fast .

[travh20]

maybe, but I think it would be fun to bring in some daemons along with my CSM's. Otherwise it seems almost like they are just regular marines but with bad intentions.

[aberrant_unc]

Seems to me there are three ways people have used them with some success.

 

One is small squads used defensively. By this, I mean using a small unit of them that pops in where you need support. Maybe you are going to get assaulted, and you want to use the small cheap demon squad to tie someone down and soften them up, or you have already been assaulted and you want some backup support.

 

Second is small squads offensively- they basically just add bodies to whichever assault unit gets into CC first.

 

Third is using large squads offensively- someone mentioned like 20 demons popping off the front of a Rhino with icon and charging into a unit. I haven't tried this one, but it sounds too expensive for a unit that will kill one enemy unit then get pounded by shooting... 20 demons is a lot of cover though.

 

I prefer the small squad uses. I use mine to support shooting units like K-Sons, or pop them in with an icon standing near obliterators.

[Sception]

I've played them a lot. I don't play them anymore.

 

Without grenades or any way to puncture troop armor, they aren't very good assault units.

 

With their minimal save and relatively high points cost, they aren't very good at absorbing attacks, and thus aren't very good tarpit units.

 

 

Their arrival is unreliable. When they do arrive, their performance is reliably bad. They're no-slot scoring status doesn't matter much since chaos marines don't seem to run out of troop slots before APO sized games, anyway.

 

 

Not that you can't win with them, and not that there aren't a couple of rare situations where you would rather have daemons then bog standard chaos marines, but even then they aren't very good.

 

 

I tried to make daemons work. I really did. I like having some Chaos in my Chaos Space Marines. But I have just not been at all successful with them, and for me the go on the same shelf as possessed, chaos spawn and dreadnoughts. The 'wait a few years for a new chaos codex' shelf.

[Smurfalypse]

another words , they have a use in tailored armies or certain army builds that go with 1.85/2k pts . but in smaller games or all comers lists they just take up space for normal csm[pr PMs] and tend to die really fast .

 

Personally im in agreement with thejeske here on this topic. I use them more in my larger point games, but at 1500 or less i usually dont use any. 2500 i use 4 units so the scale seems to slide very quickly on how many i take.

 

I personally think they are great now in 5th edition. Cheap 5 man unit that costs 65pts and is safe off the board for the first turn or two, they pop on and can hold an objective, soak fire, tie up annoying units, jump into an existing melee and help turn the tide, the uses are literally endless. This is all provided they go with the flow and style of play. Just my two cents guys.

[aberrant_unc]

I personally think they are great now in 5th edition. Cheap 5 man unit that costs 65pts and is safe off the board for the first turn or two, they pop on and can hold an objective, soak fire, tie up annoying units, jump into an existing melee and help turn the tide, the uses are literally endless. This is all provided they go with the flow and style of play. Just my two cents guys.

 

 

This is basically how I use them. They aren't good or great, and I may stop using them in the future, but the small squads have a lot of utility for a pretty cheap points cost.

[chillin]

Some people don't think daemons are good in the dex, b/c they are not the squad killlers they used to be. But I think they still think they have their uses, they are now a complamentary unit rather then a headlining one.

I use them one of two ways

1- as a protection unit for a unit of T'sons, they step in the way ofa unit that tries to assault the T'sons, with any luck the assaulters will kill all the daemons allowing the T'sons to open fire on them next turn

2- more commonly I use them in my more assaulty armies. For 130 pts I have a unit that can pop up outta nowhere and add 30 str 4 attacks to an assault. Sometimes the daemons don't come on at the exact turn you would have liked, but my opponents still groan when they come on b/c they know they are going to have to deal with 30 attacks they hadn't counted on.

Also they can tie up shooty squads like tau firewarriors to keep them from shooting at your more expensive units, they can't kill a unit of firewarriors but they can keep them tied up for basicly the whole game.

As useful as I think they are, I, like others, have a hard time fitting them in unless the game is 1700+ pts.

[Night Stalker]

i use them for whining

 

seriously - they are quite ok, despite their point cost [too much - 11/12 would be sweet spot].

[Brother Mayhem]

I am thinking of using Daemon Bombing, in a more objective grabbing way...

 

Have a unit of Bikers w/ IoN (T6) or IoT (Inv 5+) to give them added survivability to go into the enemy and land 2 units of 10 Lesser Ds' and a Greater Daemon. With a greater daemon, the lesser ds' have more of a punch in their assaults, and the amount of them can suprise enemies. It works well in theory against armies with lots of cheap troops, but i'm not sure for going against MEQs (except Necrons mabye) and specialist armies (like Daemons and Eldar).

[Roultox]

Thousand Sons players love daemons in their drive-by army list.

 

9 T-Sons+Sorc in a rhino, they get close, shoot the sorc from the hatch. Daemons come out next round, they disembark and jolly-roger them with a basket of dice, then the daemons take on the leftovers preventing T-Sons any bodily harm while they move onto the next target to bucket-bash.

 

The mere fact they can pop out to defend a rhino with a icon inside is cool now. Powerful without scatter, and still classic being able to assault. Remember, larger units means closer to the enemy once the several rings are layered.

 

Also I would like to mention that hard hitting units without many attacks despise these cheaper daemons when they want to munch on the horns of chaos helmets. Terminators(Not assault T's), Repentia, Plaguebearers, normal-ish dreadnoughts, etc etc. You get the point.

[Mr L]

I'm playing a DG army and I love the support of cheaper troops like lesser deamons because the plague marines are excellent but expensive and deamons can give the first blood at I4.

[Deneris]

Also I would like to mention that hard hitting units without many attacks despise these cheaper daemons when they want to munch on the horns of chaos helmets. Terminators(Not assault T's), Repentia, Plaguebearers, normal-ish dreadnoughts, etc etc. You get the point.

 

Aye- I used a squad of 9 to tie up/speed-bump an Eldar Avatar that was intent on chewing on a squad of terminators... The demons eventually died, but it took so long the Avatar was essentially out of the game while the Terminators eliminated a scoring Dire Avenger squad and their attendant Wraithlord "brother"...

[Inquisitor Medina]

As the poster earlier said

 

"I've played them a lot. I don't play them anymore. Without grenades or any way to puncture troop armor, they aren't very good assault units. With their minimal save and relatively high points cost, they aren't very good at absorbing attacks, and thus aren't very good tarpit units. Their arrival is unreliable. When they do arrive, their performance is reliably bad. They're no-slot scoring status doesn't matter much since chaos marines don't seem to run out of troop slots before APO sized games, anyway. Not that you can't win with them, and not that there aren't a couple of rare situations where you would rather have daemons then bog standard chaos marines, but even then they aren't very good. I tried to make daemons work. I really did. I like having some Chaos in my Chaos Space Marines. But I have just not been at all successful with them, and for me the go on the same shelf as possessed, chaos spawn and dreadnoughts. The 'wait a few years for a new chaos codex' shelf."

 

I really like daemons, they change the army from spiky marines to Chaos. I love the bloodletter models and I've tried so hard to make em work. Sadly after tonight's kicking I just can't keep 'em in my list.

 

1) They are a poor melee unit. Consider. For 13 points you are getting an assault unit that doesn't have rending or power weapons. It has T4 but only a 5+ save. Whilst this is Inv, balance this against the stand CSM of 3+. It is relatively pricey compared to a standard CSM but has effectively the same no of attacks in CC but without grenades. Plus they can't shoot. So without power weapons to negative saves, or fleet, or a couple more attacks they simply don't work as a melee unit. Yes they can deepstrike in so people will argue that this makes up for lake of fleet or furious charge but consider that they only deep strike with accuracy if they are within 6 of a icon and this means that a unit of regular CSM are nearby already so really deepstrike is wasted on them. Plus no guarantee that they will even turn up in time to make a difference.

 

2) As an objective holder. Why would you try to hold an objective with troops that only have a 5+ save and can't shoot. You are asking to be sweep off the objective by heavy volumes of fire. T4 is good but not that good - ask any ork player. You have to be prepared to lose lots of lightly armoured boyz and daemons are too expensive.

 

3) As cover/bait. Hmm standard CSM has a 3+ save. How much cover do you need? Better to get a Rhino for 35 pts. Bait; well if you opponent hasn't faced daemons before he will pounce on them but after that, they aren't a high priority.

 

Still......I don't know, having said all that, I just can't give em up - they shall remain sacrifices to the uncaring gods of my army!!

[Roultox]

Hey Inquisitor, I know where your coming from. I mean, if we compare orgyns to other armies elite assault units, it would make them look sucky. For the IG though, they have valuable uses.

 

To respond to your 1,2,3.

 

1) 10 Chaos Space Marines, Icon, Transport = 195, add in a champ and the guns you wish and its 255 or so. You get near 20 Daemons for the same cost. Their invulnerable save is invaluable against power weapon assault units, sometimes taking the brunt charging them in first against some banshees and the like. For objective holding, you get 65 points to hold an objective and charge forward with the rest of the army thats nearby. (Remind you of IG?) They dont deep strike, they come in, dont scatter and may assault. 6" from the icon, places so its 5" + 7/8ths of an inch out with the icon, add in 15 models and thats 3 rings, three more inches from the icon bearer being 8.7/8" from the icon bearer, adding 6" assault thats 14.7/8" distance from the icon bearer in total. (remember when it says "within" its considered treated like coherency, not to be treated as the word "Inside") They come in on turn 2, if my daemons came in on turn 1 I would be pissed that they would have to run their behinds to the enemy. I at least want one of my 12" moving units to get them closer, turn 3 is cherry for me, thats when its all gritty and in the gut of the game.

 

2) An objective holder that hangs out with 3+ armor save units, keep the daemons back for a counter charge unit when on an objective, if some power weapons come close put them in front, and since they'll be in the back, if something like ord comes in and wipes the marines, they wont do that so easily to the daemons. Its a difference in use of durability. -- Also remember the expensive tzeentch icon counts as almost 3 lesser daemons worth in INV save wounds and a wasted 6 melee(9 charging) attacks.

 

3) Any troop choice is a priority if they hang out on an objective. Its all how the daemons are used, Ive had both good and bad luck, either way I like them!

 

Any horde style player that knows how to skim a low save unit into a useful spot in his/her army will make good use of them.

[Lord Asdamael]

I love the use of lesserdaemons because:

1. they look awesome.

2. they can deal a whole lot of attacks on the charge (3 attacks per model)

3. they can deepstrike

4. and with the new edition wh 40k they can capture an objective because they are troops!

5. the only bad thing about daemons is that they don't have any grenades as already mensioned by some people. but when you have the choice of deepstriking them whitin 6" of an icon ofcourse you pick a target that isn't in cover.

 

O and i was wondering lately can you use the icons of an opposite csm player to summon you daemons as long as you don't get within 1" of his models?

[Roultox]

Sorry only "friendly" icons can be used in the terms of using an icon to deep strike. Its like two space marine players using eachothers teleport homer device for eachothers terminators of opposing sides.

[the jeske]

please man dont go that way . As much as I support RAW and play by the rules there are somethings I would rather not think about .

[Smurfalypse]

Playing in games weve actually come across this before and have joked around about it. To be 100% honest it literally just says an icon, nothing about a "friendly" icon or anything else. I definitely dont think that was the intention but its there none the less...Just for the record, we dont run it that way, we only use our own icons.

[Xenocidal Maniac]

I really like lesser demons when I can squeeze them into a list. I always find that they are a great harrassment unit that is suprisingly destructive. I use Fantasy Beastmen models for them to differentiate them from the REAL demons like Bloodletters, Horrors, etc. These are mere lesser demons, after all :)

[chillin]

I use Fantasy Beastmen models :P

-

I love ;) me some beastmen models. I played beastmen in FB YEARS ago, and can't resist putting some beastmen on the table every now and again. I think the models are a good match for the stats of the lesser daemons as well.