Do CSM lesser daemons cont as troops?

[travh20]

So in the CSM codex it says lesser daemons take up no slots on the force organization chart but are counted as a troop choice, so does that mean they can hold objectives?

[L0NEW0LF]

yes they can

apart from not taking up a force organisation slot it states they are treated as troop units

so yes they can capture and hold objectives

[Massawyrm]

Yup. They sure can.

 

Thankfully they can't deep strike anywhere outside of a 6" radius of an icon. So no last minute surprise troop strikes.

[Lord Humongous]

On the other hand, that icon does not need to be carried by a troops unit, so its a great way to go from contesting an objective, to claiming it.

[travh20]

WEll that is awsome, because I just went out and bought 10 bloodletters to use with my Blacklegion.

[Son of Corax]

Everyone get your hatin' caps on, cause I'm gonna rile up a whole lot of people.

 

According to several GW staff members, they aren't scoring as they don't take up a troop allotment.

 

Go ahead and flame me.

[teh_perfesser]

According to several GW staff members, they aren't scoring as they don't take up a troop allotment.

So they aren't worth kill points either? I'mma loading up! :lol:

 

The GW folks you spoke to should read their own printed material. This is from a brochure that explained how existing armies would be impacted by the 5th ed:

Chaos Marines and Daemons provide many units of Troops to capture objectives.

Barring an FAQ on it, I'll stick to a printed statement from GW's design team as evidence of intent.

 

 

Edit: Just to say, flaming is pretty much universally frowned upon here. You should really write "Go ahead and respectfully disagree with what I wrote. I appreciate your opinion." instead of "Go ahead and flame me." Bonus points will be given if you can slip a please and thank you in there ;)

[Ian MacKay]

According to several GW staff members, they aren't scoring as they don't take up a troop allotment.

So they aren't worth kill points either? I'mma loading up! :lol:

 

The GW folks you spoke to should read their own printed material. This is from a brochure that explained how existing armies would be impacted by the 5th ed:

Chaos Marines and Daemons provide many units of Troops to capture objectives.

Barring an FAQ on it, I'll stick to a printed statement from GW's design team as evidence of intent.

 

 

Edit: Just to say, flaming is pretty much universally frowned upon here. You should really write "Go ahead and respectfully disagree with what I wrote. I appreciate your opinion." instead of "Go ahead and flame me." Bonus points will be given if you can slip a please and thank you in there ;)

 

Chaos Marines and Daemons have more than the single Troop entry common to most armies. Per Page 90 of the 5th Ed Rule Book, "...scoring units are all the units that come from its Troops allowance." While summoned lesser daemons are treated as Troops, they do NOT come from the Troops section of the book and do NOT take up Troops sections on a Force Org Chart.

 

Therefore they are not scoring, but can contest an objective, just like everything else in the army.

 

PS: shouldn't this get moved to the Official Rules forum? ;)

[Lascannons]

Just because they're not in the troops section doesn't mean they're not troops. IE RW and DW for the dark angels and bikes for some DIY foolishness. Just because they don't occupy a slot doesn't mean they're not alloted to you. It just so happens your troops allotment for lesser daemons are unlimited just so long as you have the points to pay for them.

[Ju'kosian]

"units of lesser daemons do not use up any force organisation chart selection, but are OTHERWISE treated as a troop unit"

chaos codex p102

 

I don't see why they can't score. Anyway they can contest so that's fine by me too

[Brother Gothard]

units of lesser daemons do not use up any force organisation chart selection, but are OTHERWISE treated as a troop unit

This is the clincher for me as well. If they merely intended to say that they are deployed as troops, they would have said so (i.e., but are DEPLOYED as troops unit).

 

I fully understand RAW, and also the 'permissive set', but even going by both of these they are still scoring. Why? Well, simply: Daemons are treated as a troops unit. That satisfies that only units from troops selections can score.

 

Wouldn't you have found it odd for the writers of the 5th ed chaos codex (who were probably the same guys writing the 5th ed rule book, or at least in close cahoots with those writers) to have included that particular line about Daemons counting otherwise as troops BUT NOT intending it to be used with the "only troops score" rule of said 5th ed rulebook?

 

I would.

 

[edit]

 

According to several GW staff members, they aren't scoring as they don't take up a troop allotment.

Also, I've heard some VERY stupid things come out of the mouths of GW staffers and managers about rules. VERY stupid. So, as a general rule, you should NOT listen to the advice from GW staff members to clear things up. They did not write the book, and their understanding of it is usually on par with, and frequently below, yours/ours.

[Doctor Thunder]

According to several GW staff members, they aren't scoring as they don't take up a troop allotment.

 

Unless it is published somewhere or they are judging for a tournament, a GW staff member's opinion carries the same weight as my opinion would, which is zero.

 

The rules say they score.

[Ian MacKay]

According to several GW staff members, they aren't scoring as they don't take up a troop allotment.

 

Unless it is published somewhere or they are judging for a tournament, a GW staff member's opinion carries the same weight as my opinion would, which is zero.

 

The rules say they score.

 

The GW staffer I got my info from IS a GT Judge for Chicago. Guess I should have mentioned that earlier...

[Son of Corax]

[The GW folks you spoke to should read their own printed material. This is from a brochure that explained how existing armies would be impacted by the 5th ed:

Chaos Marines and Daemons provide many units of Troops to capture objectives.

Barring an FAQ on it, I'll stick to a printed statement from GW's design team as evidence of intent.

 

Is this the same brochure that stated that since templates no longer have partials, sisters are much better with all their flame throwers?

 

The problem continues to be that deamons don't come from the troops allotment. They act like troops for all other purposes but it says specifically in their unit entry that the do not use up a troops slot, thus they do not use up allotment, thus they do not come from troop allotment.

 

Also, the staff member I was speaking to is the same one as Ian MacKay.

[Doctor Thunder]

According to several GW staff members, they aren't scoring as they don't take up a troop allotment.

 

Unless it is published somewhere or they are judging for a tournament, a GW staff member's opinion carries the same weight as my opinion would, which is zero.

 

The rules say they score.

 

The GW staffer I got my info from IS a GT Judge for Chicago. Guess I should have mentioned that earlier...

Then it held weight during that event and at no other time.

[Gentlemanloser]

Where in the BRB is your Troop Allotment detailed or explained?

 

Units that don't take a FoC slot, but class as 'Troops' aren't from your Troop Allotment? Where are they from then? HQ? Elite? There's only so many places they can be allotted to.

 

How about (only example I can think of off the top of my head) Space Wolf Wolf Guard Leaders. They come from a single Elite slot, no matter how many you have of them, but are attached to a squad (which can be a Troop squad) and count as a member of that squad for the entire game.

 

If a 10 Man SW Troop choice with an attached WGL was reduced to only the WGL, would it still be scoring?

[Brother Gothard]

The problem continues to be that deamons don't come from the troops allotment.

Well, then I hope Deathwing and Ravenwing players are really good at denying objectives and one-upping their opponents' kill points because ... "Deathwing Terminator Squads may be treated as a Troops choice as well as an Elites choice," and "Ravenwing Attack Squadrons may be treated as a Troops choice as well as a Fast Attack choice," found on page 79 of the Dark Angels codex. This is the same as "Lesser Summoned Daemons do not use up any force organisation chart selection, but are otherwise treated as a Troops unit," found on page 102 of the Chaos Space Marines codex. The operative word being "treated," and this means the problem is exactly the same for both armies.

 

So, to argue that Lesser Summoned Daemons do not count as scoring units is to argue that neither do Deathwing nor Ravenwing units in Deathwing and Ravenwing armies. Does that mean that all three do not count as scoring? No, of course not. It is merely to illustrate that the writers of these books, who clearly intended for Deathwing and Ravenwing units to count as scoring in 5th, have used the exact same wording for the Lesser Summoned Daemons entry. And yes, I know that intention and RAW are very different things.

 

So be careful how far you push this argument, with that in mind.

 

Ahh, but now something new comes to mind:

Per Page 90 of the 5th Ed Rule Book, "...scoring units are all the units that come from its Troops allowance."

Emphasis mine. If this is indeed the exact wording in the 5th Rulebook (which I cannot check as I have lent it to a fledging player), then this may be the end of the discussion.

 

Lesser Summoned Daemons do not use up any force organisation chart selection, and thus Lesser Summoned Daemons litterally do not come from an army's Troops allowance. Then, if the only units that count as scoring are units that come from an army's Troops allowance, and Lesser Summoned Daemons do not come from an army's Troops allowance, then Lesser Summoned Daemons do not count as scoring units.

 

Hmm. The key seems to be whether or not allowance is synonymous with using up force organisation chart selections. It seems to be. You are only allowed 6 Troop selections. Lesser Summoned Daemons do not come from that allowance. Therefore, they are not scoring units.

 

Bummer, dude.

 

[edit]

 

Oh, and just to clarify, Deathwing and Ravenwing DO count as scoring for the same reason Lesser Summoned Daemons do not.

[Doctor Thunder]

Hmm. The key seems to be whether or not allowance is synonymous with using up force organisation chart selections. It seems to be. You are only allowed 6 Troop selections. Lesser Summoned Daemons do not come from that allowance. Therefore, they are not scoring units.

You've correctly identified the key issue, but then you stretch to make a judgment, and stretching is never a good sign when interpreting rules.

 

"It seems to be" is not a strong argument, because it's just as easy to say, "it seems to not be."

[Brother Gothard]

You've correctly identified the key issue, but then you stretch to make a judgment, and stretching is never a good sign when interpreting rules.

 

"It seems to be" is not a strong argument, because it's just as easy to say, "it seems to not be."

I'm actually FOR lesser daemons being scoring. I'm merely reading the rules and trying to find a logical way to properly conclude the argument. While I have said "it seems to be" I also gave a very concise and good reason why it seems to be. I have not stretched at all; scoring units come from Troops allowances only, and lesser daemons strictly do not come from that allowance. So they don't score.

 

Now, if it is so easy to say "it seems not to be," perhaps you'll try your hand at it? You can't merely flip a ponens into a tollens. You're going to have to state why 'allowance' is not synonymous with force organisation chart selections.

[Maddog176]

An interesting thing is it says "...scoring units are all the units that come from its Troops allowance." Now this states nothing about weather its from the organization chart or not, just simply what you are allowed to take. So then you can easily say well i am allowed to take lesser daemons as a troops choice. Sure they don't take up a organization chart choice but nowhere does it state that the only scoring units are the ones from the chart, just simply your allowance and last time i checked i was always allowed to take lesser daemons. Like i said just something interesting but in all my games we will just allow them to be scoring, and if a tornie says otherwise well we will play by those rules for the tornies.

[Doctor Thunder]

Now, if it is so easy to say "it seems not to be," perhaps you'll try your hand at it? You can't merely flip a ponens into a tollens. You're going to have to state why 'allowance' is not synonymous with force organisation chart selections.

 

Well, the Rulebook says "Units that come from its troop allowance."

 

I say that refers to the Troops section of an army list, not the FOC, for the following reasons:

 

In 40K we do not take units from the Force Organizational chart, we take units from the codex. The FOC only gives us minimums and maximums that can be taken from the codex, but regardless of the FOC's restrictions, the units always come from the codex, so the rule is obviously referring to the codex, not the FOC.

 

Furthermore it says "from its troop allowance," which refers specifically to the army list. If it was talking about the FOC, which applies generally to all armies, rather that to a specific army, then it would have used the word "the."

 

"The" troop allowance would refer to the FOC, "its" troop allowance refers to the armies codex.

 

Page 87 of the Rulebook has a paragraph called "Other Exceptions" that talks about army lists that have choices that do not take up force organizational slots. If your argument were correct, it would there mention the fact that such choices cannot score.

Since the paragraph does not include any such exception to the normal rule, then none exists.

 

 

In summary:

 

Point 1) Units "come" from the Codex entries, not the FOC.

 

Point 2) "Its" refers to the specific army list the player is using, rather than "the" FOC.

 

Point 3) The rulebooks when specifically discussing entries that do not take up a FOC gives no exception to scoring status, so none exists.

[OwenCrute]

If it's treated as a Troops unit, then it is treated as taking up part of a Troops allotment, just like the Troops unit it is being treated as.

 

Seems clear enough to me.

[Brother Gothard]

Page 87 of the Rulebook has a paragraph called "Other Exceptions" that talks about army lists that have choices that do not take up force organizational slots. If your argument were correct, it would there mention the fact that such choices cannot score.

Since the paragraph does not include any such exception to the normal rule, then none exists.

I don't think that has anything to do with it. It also doesn't say that dedicated transports score or don't score, but they don't ever score. Furthermore, this rulebook, I think, is doing a good job of not mixing rules. The part you are describing is merely setting straight what units are that do not take up FOC choices. Its got nothing to do with scoring or otherwise, merely what those units are.

 

But I think you've proved your point. I can see that the Troops allowance refers to the army's Troops selections.

 

If it's treated as a Troops unit, then it is treated as taking up part of a Troops allotment, just like the Troops unit it is being treated as.

 

Seems clear enough to me.

Well, I can treat a rock like a delicate thing, but that doesn't make it fall under the classification 'delicate things.' I know that seems ad hoc, but 'treated as' just isn't specific enough for me. The summoned daemons don't come from the troops section of the book. If they were in the troops section but had a rule saying they did not take up any FOC slots, that would be different.

 

It seems unclear to me whether summoned daemons are scoring or not, but since I seem to be the only one willing to take the fight passed "so and so said they don't," or "the brochure says they don't" then I'll just be quiet. I'll continue to count them as scoring units, but I feel certain that a FAQ will get released explaining that Lesser Summoned Daemons were never intended to be scoring units.

[Ian MacKay]

If it's treated as a Troops unit, then it is treated as taking up part of a Troops allotment, just like the Troops unit it is being treated as.

 

Seems clear enough to me.

 

So if a chaos player shows up with an HQ and 6 units of lesser daemons, you'd allow that as legal under the FOC? He has NO Troops as listed in the codex under the TROOPS section. Why else would the entry for the Lesser Daemons specifically state they DO NOT take up a FOC slot?

 

@Doctor Thunder: That is probably the most convoluted and nonsensical argument I have seen in a while. Why would GW put a FOC in the front of every army section if it did not matter to the game? Or to your organization? You take units from your codex that fit the FOC. Taking more Elites or Heavies than allowed on the FOC is not following the rules. Just because I have 6 Heavy Support choices in my codex does NOT mean I can take 6 Heavy Support units in the army list. We choose things from the codex sections to FIT THE FOC!

 

The DA and BA lists have exceptions to the rules regarding what units occupy which FOC slots. Trying to say that their exception applies to another codex is violating the separation of codicies. Just because Codex: Space Marines 5th ed is probably going to give 3+ saves for storm shields does not mean my Templars are automatically going to get them. Ditto for BA & DA.

 

Page 87 of the rule book under "Other exceptions" also states that "units that, much like dedicated transports, are not part of the army's force organisation chart. This may be because they are too puny, specialized support unts or simply not a part of the main fighting forces of that race." Emphasis mine. They don't count towards the FOC due to these reasons. Summoned Lesser Daemons are clearly defined by this. Only Chaos Marines and their marked variants are "main fighting forces" and take up a FOC slot.

 

Also, if GW did not think that Lesser Daemons were scoring in a GRAND TOURNAMENT, why would they think it's ok in a normal game?!? At least to me, the way rules are enforced at a tournament is the ultimate endorsement of the "party line."

 

Oh, and I do play Chaos as well as BT and IF. So this does affect me. Lesser Daemons can contest, but not hold...

[Quillen]

Back it up and go this route with it.

 

Dark Angles can only take bikes and termies as troops if they take a Heroe that lets said unit be taken as a Troops choice. You have to have a heroe that lets the squad in question count as a slot. SO it has to be taken as one of the slots. So it is indeed a scoring unit.

 

Now Demons do not have that in the list. It says they act like troops. Which means they behave as troop choices when shot and assualted. Not "AND THEY ARE SCORING!!!" Which is not in there at all. As they do not take a slot and they take the time to say, "Hey these mofos don't take a slot."

 

Add in the book saying it has to be a troops choise slot to capture, and you see they are not scoring units.

 

And look at the balance of the game people. HEEEELLLLLOOOOO!!! :RTBBB: It would not be fair and balanced for someone to show up with 7-12 scoring units. There would be no balance. Which is why they put that in the book about it taking a slot. And they say they do not. So no they do not.

 

Anyways, if you suck so bad you have to find loop holes and contridictions to get more scoring units to win, well you suck at the game and maybe should get some magic cards or something else. :D