Do CSM lesser daemons cont as troops?

[Maddog176]

Wow Quillen talk about insulting me because i interrupted something differently to you. With this basically it can go either way as we can see and both sides have valid arguments. Its simply down to how your group feels. The group i play in all see it as they are scoring so we play as they are scoring until something in concrete comes along. And as for you say that having 7 - 12 scouring units makes it unbalanced, does that make imperial guard and space marines unbalanced because last i checked the impy have at min 3 scoring units per troop choice and marines can easily get 2 scouring units per troop choice.

 

Edit: also unless i missed it, quite possible, i don't recall it ever saying anything about scoring units having to take up a spot in the force organization chart.

[L0NEW0LF]

...And look at the balance of the game people. HEEEELLLLLOOOOO!!! :RTBBB: It would not be fair and balanced for someone to show up with 7-12 scoring units. There would be no balance...

 

what you mean like all you loyalist players taking 6 troop squads and splitting thm into 12 combat squads?

[OwenCrute]

So if a chaos player shows up with an HQ and 6 units of lesser daemons, you'd allow that as legal under the FOC? He has NO Troops as listed in the codex under the TROOPS section. Why else would the entry for the Lesser Daemons specifically state they DO NOT take up a FOC slot?

 

You misunderstood me. Perhaos 'take up' was the wrong choice of words. Substitute 'count as'.

[Doctor Thunder]

@Doctor Thunder: That is probably the most convoluted and nonsensical argument I have seen in a while. Why would GW put a FOC in the front of every army section if it did not matter to the game?

No one said it didn't matter to the game. It just isn't part of the scoring rules, just like the to-hit chart has nothing to do with setting up infiltrators.

 

Focus on what is actually being said.

 

The DA and BA lists have exceptions to the rules regarding what units occupy which FOC slots. Trying to say that their exception applies to another codex is violating the separation of codicies.

I never said that. Are you actually reading these posts?

 

They don't count towards the FOC due to these reasons. Summoned Lesser Daemons are clearly defined by this.

Clearly? How can you say clearly when it doesn't say what you claim it says at all? Is this some new and exciting definition of clearly of which I was previously unaware? (Hitchhikers Guide Reference)

 

 

Only Chaos Marines and their marked variants are "main fighting forces" and take up a FOC slot.

Again, you are quoting things that don't exist. Show me where it actually says that chaos space marines are the main fighting force. It doesn't actually say that. Let's try talking about what the rules actually say from now on.

 

Also, if GW did not think that Lesser Daemons were scoring in a GRAND TOURNAMENT, why would they think it's ok in a normal game?!? At least to me, the way rules are enforced at a tournament is the ultimate endorsement of the "party line."

Do you really think GW gives Grant Tournament Judges a packet with rules judgments in it or something?

Let me set you straight. I have been a Grand Tournament Rules judge several times, and GW gives them no guidance whatsoever. The purpose of a judge in a tournament is to make a ruling and move the game long. GW does not care if the ruling is correct or not, only that the players get back to the game.

[Spacefrisian]

Noting that someone states that only troops taken from the troops selection score i would like to point out that some transport vehicles are also listed under the troops section (although subsection called "transport"), going from this then they would be able to hold objectives.

[Maddog176]

Yeah troop transports would be able to hold objectives if it wasn't for the exceptions list what tells you vehicles can't score. Its on page 90 the first dot point in the exceptions.

[Tokunator]

@Quilien: If it isn't fair to have 7-12 scoring units, what are you going to say about the potential 36 scoring units an Imperial Guard army could have (6 platoons each containing 1 Command Squadron and 5 Squadrons, at 60 points each, they would be 36*60=2160 points, but nevertheless it would be legal)?

 

Concerning the discussion:

 

- Every unit from the TROOPS allowance can score unless it is a swarm, is a vehicle or has a special rule that says it never scores.

 

- Daemons are treated as TROOPS but do not take up a slot in the chart.

 

- The rules do not say that TROOPS that do not take up a slot don't count as scoring.

 

 

Indeed, what is a TROOPS allowance? a) The number of TROOPS you can have? :lol: Or units coming from the TROOPS sections? Either way though, it doesn't contradict that they can't score. If the book said that only TROOPS that occupy a slot in the chart would count, I would agree, but it doesn't.

[Praeger]

Iv moved this topic as its more of a rules question then anything else :mellow:

[Hlakir]

If you read the whole block of text (and not just the first sentence) it's perfectly clear that they are talking about units that are Troops (they even highlighted the word Troops).

[Tokunator]

Yes, and Daemons are treated as Troops in all respects other than not occupying any slots in the FOC. So they can score.

[Democratus]

bad post. don't know how to delete.

[KeithGatchalian]

Summoned Chaos Daemons in a Chaos Space Marines army count as troops and can claim objectives.

 

I suggest someone telling those "GT Judges" to call the 1-800-394-4263 number and discuss this issue.

[maniclurker]

The GW folks you spoke to should read their own printed material. This is from a brochure that explained how existing armies would be impacted by the 5th ed:

Chaos Marines and Daemons provide many units of Troops to capture objectives.

Barring an FAQ on it, I'll stick to a printed statement from GW's design team as evidence of intent.

 

 

Edit: Just to say, flaming is pretty much universally frowned upon here. You should really write "Go ahead and respectfully disagree with what I wrote. I appreciate your opinion." instead of "Go ahead and flame me." Bonus points will be given if you can slip a please and thank you in there ;)

 

This was in that little summary sheet that explained how different races will be affected by 5th ed, right? If you could direct me to a place on the internet with this, I'd be grateful... as I can't find it at all.

 

Also, I love you.

[Brother Gothard]

As a bit of an added "LOL" to this topic, I tried to e-mail the mailorder@games-workshop.ca people (because according to them they can "Always!" answer rules questions), but my e-mail was bounced because that "user no longer exists."

 

Heh, maybe they dont want to hear about this issue anymore :(