BrianBlessed Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 I'm intrigued by a little bit in the book, I think its just before the dead traitors are bought back to life by Nurgle on the Eisenstein, it describes a dazzling warp display and unNurgelike creatures flying about, which are otherwise ineffectual. Disks/screamers of Tzeentch maybe? part of the lord of changes plans no doubt. Would you guys agree? I don't have the book on me right now but I will dig out the page number in a bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pig Of Sparta Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 now that you mention it, yeah i think you're right. Saying that tzeentch is down right sneaky and he, or one of his minions could have 'loaned' the daemons to the nurgle cause, or perhaps, they just got there first. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/#findComment-1657899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianBlessed Posted August 9, 2008 Author Share Posted August 9, 2008 OK so I can't find it again. I'm sure I read it. Am I going mad? someone please confirm/refute this for me. Pig of Sparta, yeah this was why I thought of Tzeentch even though he doesn't like Nurgle, Garro and his boys potentially saved humanity so it makes sense for Tzeentch to help out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/#findComment-1658525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pig Of Sparta Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 you're definately not going mad, they are in there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/#findComment-1659096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Remember that not every creature living in the warp is alligned to one of the chaos pantheons - many are just small beings of chaos that exist in the empyrean, and therefore have no underlying motives. The creatures flying onto the ship could quite easily have been those, bursting through the gap into realspace. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/#findComment-1660295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneris Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 I'm intrigued by a little bit in the book, I think its just before the dead traitors are bought back to life by Nurgle on the Eisenstein, it describes a dazzling warp display and unNurgelike creatures flying about, which are otherwise ineffectual. Disks/screamers of Tzeentch maybe? part of the lord of changes plans no doubt. Would you guys agree? I don't have the book on me right now but I will dig out the page number in a bit. Page 261- "...a spinning disc, a wide purple blade trailing stinging cilia from its edges..." Sounds like a Disc/Screamer to me, too... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/#findComment-1660725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianBlessed Posted August 12, 2008 Author Share Posted August 12, 2008 I'm intrigued by a little bit in the book, I think its just before the dead traitors are bought back to life by Nurgle on the Eisenstein, it describes a dazzling warp display and unNurgelike creatures flying about, which are otherwise ineffectual. Disks/screamers of Tzeentch maybe? part of the lord of changes plans no doubt. Would you guys agree? I don't have the book on me right now but I will dig out the page number in a bit. Page 261- "...a spinning disc, a wide purple blade trailing stinging cilia from its edges..." Sounds like a Disc/Screamer to me, too... Thanks for the pagenumber. It does sound very Tzeentchy. Its dying shreik turns into a psychic call. Then a load of Nurgle daemons arrive. Pacific81 I agree but I like the idea that Tzeentch could be meddling/helping. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/#findComment-1660778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordus Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 you know, you are right. Its possible that Tzeentch was attempting to get them for its own sick purposes, but was driven back. The dying screams of the horrors/discs brought them to Nurgles attention. He then sends in the plaguebearers/ressurects the Life-Eater victims. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/#findComment-1660964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Librarian Benarius Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 I think Tzeentch would have wanted Garro to make it. According to Tzeentch’s greatest deamon in the book “The Eye of Terror” the whole rise and fall of the Emperor was coordinated by Tzeetch so that the Emperor would end up in a stasis field unable to die; for if the Emperor were to die he would absorb the other chaos gods as aspects of the human psyche and become the one true God of all. If you think about it the only Tzeentch corrupted force during the Heresy was that of Magnus and they never took part in the siege of Terra if I remember correctly; although I might be wrong there. But the point I’m trying to make, as much as I might hate to say it as a staunch imperial player, is that the whole history of the empire has been designed by the great schemer himself according to that bit of fluff. One can then argue that the alien coalition in the book “Legion” was either orchestrated by Tzeentch (misleading them with the wrong vision) or that they simply fooled the Alpha Legion into creating the current situation so prevent humans becoming the future race in the universe and so prevent their own extinction. I do not believe the alien coalition really believed the Emperor would end up in a stasis field if the Alpha Legion had “remained” loyal (parenthesis because in a sick way they are still loyal) unless Tzeetch had influenced their vision. If so then it was in their interest to trick the Alpha Legion into defecting so that the current situation would in fact come to fruition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/#findComment-1661100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHawk Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 Interesting idea, about the tzeentch thing. It would require an awful lot of patience to accomplish, but the powers of the warp (especially tzeentch) often take the long view. The HH story does have elements of unbelievable chance and luck about it that makes people wonder, was it just good imperial leaders and warriors making their own luck or was there something more planned about it?....The heresy led to a victory but one with an almost too high a price- a weakened imperium and a half-dead emperor, maybe not a chaos dominated galaxy that chaos would want, but certainly the closest thing to it they could get. In Flight of the Eisenstein, it may be that either the chaos powers are working together or alternatively, as has been previously suggested the creatures may have be controlled by minor warp powers, but the description certainly sounds like a disc/screamer. I always forget which of the chaos powers don't like each other IIRC khorne doesnt like tzeentch, but as for tzeentch and nurgle I'm not sure. POSSIBLE 'LEGION' SPOILER On the subject of Legion, I had also wondered about whether the whole ending to legion was a chaos-inspired trick to get them to rebel. The aliens may themselves been vehemently anti-chaos, but their vision of the future seemed to have been gained from technology that may be powered by the warp (in w40k fiction most prophetic talent or technology is either by psykers and thus indirectly by the warp or simply powered by the warp itself). That vision may have been shaped by chaos to make the vision overly pessimistic and then when passed on by the unwitting aliens, guided the alpha legion towards chaos because chaos made it seem they had to chose the lesser of two evils. Though having said that I still seem to side with the idea that the alpha legion chose the way they did in an attempt to fight chaos- if that makes sense :D ... SPOILER ENDS The subtlety of GW fiction is half the reason it's so interesting. The good authors are able to write articles (like the index astartes) and books that allow the readers to see the story from their army/sides perspective or allow the story to fit into the various W40 universe conspiracy theories (the role of the inquisition, cypher, the ad mechs allegiances, the old ones and the engineered species they created etc...). Even though readers can see the story in a different light and often the theories are mutually opposed, they nevertheless still seem equally valid. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/#findComment-1667053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solid Zaku Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 We must remember that even though Tzeentch and Nurgle hate each other, Tzeentch does like to have his brothers do his dirty work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/#findComment-1668016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerka Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 We must remember that even though Tzeentch and Nurgle hate each other, Tzeentch does like to have his brothers do his dirty work. Very true. There was a story in the new rulebook for the Daemons about the daemonic incursion to a planet. Nurgle started it, but went to the other gods for help, and Khorne and Slaanesh joined in, but Tzeentch just ignored him. Eventually the world got virus-bombed, effectively defeating the daemons, and the three gods were ticked and started arguing amongst themselves. The story ends with, "While the other gods bickered, Tzeentch smiled." Can't believe I didn't pick up on the Screamers in FotE. It may be they were simply there to provide the initial impetus for the Nurgle daemons to pop up, which would draw the attention of Nurgle himself (and is possibly what led to the assault on the rest of the Legion during their warp transit). Or Tzeentch did it to give those Marines some experience against daemons, which would force the Council of Terra to acknowledge their threat and decide to create organizations designed to fight them... The plots of Tzeentch are many and complex. Even actions which seem to set him back are all part of his plans, and only serve to benefit him in some way. Then again, Screamers are little more than animals, so it all may just be a coincidence, too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/#findComment-1668947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHawk Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 Tzeentch did it to give those Marines some experience against daemons, which would force the Council of Terra to acknowledge their threat and decide to create organizations designed to fight them... The plots of Tzeentch are many and complex. Even actions which seem to set him back are all part of his plans, and only serve to benefit him in some way. Indeed, good point.... For example, the HH caused the inquisition to be created and the inquisition was created to fight (amongst other things i.e xenos, internal threats etc..) chaos and daemons. Which might seem to set back the plans of chaos.....but within the inquisition there are some radical factions who believe the only way to help the imperium is to tear it down and start afresh and so they actively promote rebellion and unrest. Maybe tzeentch knew this would happen, set the pieces in place to cause it to happen, even if it meant initial losses for chaos, because it knew once the imperium was falling apart, it seize could it's chance. So a step forward for the imperium in the short term may end up being two steps back in the long term. The free pdf of the inquisitor rulebook (core rules section) from the specialist games website lists the radical factions on pages 8+9 (The istvaanians in particular have a scheming streak to them that might be similar to tzeentch's plans): http://www.specialist-games.com/inquisitor...InqLRBpart1.pdf There's nothing to say that's the case- it's just a random idea, but it shows the sort of plans tzeentch could hatch. A question though....Does tzeentch actually what to 'win' or does it just want to constantly change the game, moving the chess pieces indefinately? BTW there's also a good little story about the start of the =I= on the third page presumably set just after the heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/#findComment-1670290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 I dont wish to rain on any parades, but i really hope that every defeat of tzeentch is not just a step forward for him...meaning that while he meant to lose here, in xxx amount of years some event will be affected by todays actions. it makes tzeentch too powerful, and robs the background of much of its richness. i personally see tzeentch as a truely powerful creature, but not omnipotent or all seeing. it can be foiled, defeated...i might be sounding naive, oh well. wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/#findComment-1670325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerka Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 A question though....Does tzeentch actually what to 'win' or does it just want to constantly change the game, moving the chess pieces indefinately? He actually doesn't. It was... the Daemons of Chaos book for WHFB, I think, that said he actually doesn't try to gain total victory, because then he wouldn't have anyone to scheme against, so he's content to let his power flow and ebb a bit. I dont wish to rain on any parades, but i really hope that every defeat of tzeentch is not just a step forward for him...meaning that while he meant to lose here, in xxx amount of years some event will be affected by todays actions. it makes tzeentch too powerful, and robs the background of much of its richness. i personally see tzeentch as a truely powerful creature, but not omnipotent or all seeing. it can be foiled, defeated...i might be sounding naive, oh well. wolf lord kieran It is stated Tzeentch's power of foresight is NOT all-powerful, something which frustrates him to no end (and led to his creating Fateweaver). So, occasionally, even his plans can get messed up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/#findComment-1670488 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 thank you allerka, i must have missed that reference about tzeentch's power level. wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/#findComment-1670878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireHawk Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Lol As a matter of fact I don't actually believe in an over-powerful tzeentch either and nor should I as a very pro-imperial IF gamer, I just started thinking about the possibilities (possibilities opposite to my own view of the w40k universe), to sort of illustrate as a sort of devils advocate, that w40k fiction is written with enough ambiguity that with a bit of effort any theory can be made to seem possible. A feature which is one of the corner stones of the background, because it sort of allows any gamer to see their army as playing a fundamental role in the w40k background. Indeed I personally favour the viewpoint that each faction, their armies, deities, leaders, or whatever each have a certain amount of power to shape the w40k universe, but the factions, knowingly or unknowingly confound each others grand plans often enough that no one can ultimately triumph, thus the status quo is always maintained. A sort of galactic rock, paper, scissors that never ends. Edit: A status quo that also allows GW to continue the game indefinately ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/#findComment-1673035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerka Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Lol As a matter of fact I don't actually believe in an over-powerful tzeentch either and nor should I as a very pro-imperial IF gamer, I just started thinking about the possibilities (possibilities opposite to my own view of the w40k universe), to sort of illustrate as a sort of devils advocate, that w40k fiction is written with enough ambiguity that with a bit of effort any theory can be made to seem possible. A feature which is one of the corner stones of the background, because it sort of allows any gamer to see their army as playing a fundamental role in the w40k background. And that's pretty much right. The exact nature of the fluff is left somewhat mutable, both to allow people to go crazy with it, and so GW doesn't have to be arsed to cross-check every piece of lore written to make sure it's "accurate". :) So we can theorize about Tzeentch's possible influence in the Heresy, and folks like Refuse can have crazy conspiracy theories that all the fluff from 2nd edition on is just "revisionist history" cooked up by the High Lords. :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/#findComment-1673965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dourine Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 I remember seeing in the C:CD that it says something like "It is speculated that tzeentch's powers have driven him mad, and even he doesn't know where his plans will end" Basically implying he's gone crazy and just starts making plans and has no idea how to finish them.....which come to think of it.....i do that a lot (Great i'll start a daemon army....2 months later.....ummmm..........) Is this the actualy embodiment of change? Having a plan and then not finishing it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143158-flight-of-the-eisenstein/#findComment-1675284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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