Question regarding cover saves for vehicles

[tomambrosio]

This is an issue that came up during a 5th edition game and my group would like your opinion. The situation was as follows. A space marine was shooting a lascannon at a defiler and the space marine had line of sight. The defiler was standing atop a hill out of range of any other weapons which could have hurt it. However, the marine was more 2" inside area terrain (a ruin), shooting through a space in the wall that had significant window grille or windowpane dividers (the crosses of the windows that keep the individual panes together). It was this last sentence that became a concern. The question is this: Can the defiler claim a cover save?

 

The debate broke down along the following lines. On the side of the cover save was the following evidence. First, it was pretty tough to tell whether “at least 50% of the facing of the vehicle that is being targeted” was “hidden by intervening terrain” (p.62), meaning the window grilles of the building. If the model was right up to the window, probably not, but given that it was significantly back, it was a bit hard to see the defiler through the window -- plus getting one’s head inside the building was going to be difficult. Therefore, making a clear ‘obscured’ ruling was impossible. Second, the model was “firing out of area terrain” more than 2" and therefore it should have conferred “a cover save to the target” (p.22). This side argued that, even if the first point was in dispute, the second point should have given the defiler a 4+ cover save automaticaly.

 

On the other side, there was compelling evidence. First, the window grilles were not that extensive and the vehicle itself was not obscured by the hill. Second, the whole bit about the 2+” inside area terrain bit only applies to infantry models and not to vehicles, given the statement on page 62 which identifies “the following exceptions to the normal rules for cover,” one of which is the 50% rule.

 

Which do you believe was correct. Or, did we over analyze this? Maybe it was not a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ question, but a ‘yes, but’, meaning that the defiler should have received a 5+ cover save, given the rule which says “if you’re not sure whether the vehicle is 50% in cover or not, simply modify its save by -1" (p.62).

 

We would like to hear your thoughts. Oh, and by the way, we never argued over area terrain under 4th edition. We are not enamored with TLOS.

[SpideyScott]

Well it says in the rules if you cant decide on a cover save then just reduce the save by 1, so it would of got a 5+ save. I would save it had a 4+ cover save since since the 2nd point would be valid. I would like to hear more about why point 2 was disputed?

[Ming]

Also - long this line - I played against a Tau player who thought if I passed the cover save, his hit was still glancing...I told him no, it was a MISS. In that case, he wanted to shoot a railgun at a target of which he could only see a glipse of hull through a distant open doorway under a stone/concrete building archway.

 

In the example above, I'd have gone with the 5+ cover save (like shooting through a fence...) to keep the game going...the SM should have been placed at the window to begin with...just to not worry about it. The building gives the SM a 4+ save, so why bother to skulk around in the back of the room...

[nighthawks]

Without considering area terrain, I would say that the defiler should get the 5+ IF there is a decent, but debatable, amount of cover from the TLOS through the window bits. no save if clearly not covered, and 4+ if there was clearly 50%+ coverage of it's body. this is pretty clear in the rules.

 

The 2" into area rule DOES apply to vehicles, as it is not stated as a difference from the normal rules to cover on page 62 of the BBB. so there's the 4+ right there.

 

as for your tau buddy, he should read the book.

[mad727]

I would say the pane was irrelevant and the key factor was the fact the model was firing from MORE then 2" inside the area terrain. The Defilier should get the full cover save of 4+.

 

As stated above, if the marine was at the window or within the 2" the Defiler would get NO cover save. Pane or not. The marine if it was real would lean or being a laser just fire through the pane.