Quick Rules Question

[Morkhai]

Ok, so I played a game against my buddy who plays orks the other night and he came up with an interesting idea. In 5th Edition if you shoot through an enemy or friendly unit at a target your target gets a 4+ cover save. What he was doing was mingling a unit of Gretchin, Ork Boyz, and Ork Nobz so that pretty much whatever I shot at was "through" another unit therefore allowing even his gretchin to get a 4+ cover save thus completely ignoring the fact that my bolters would AP through his armor on all but the nobz. Is this legal? I couldn't find anything in the rulebook to say it's not but it does seem kind of overpowered and a dirty trick. Any thoughts?

[Rymeer]

basically, I feel your friend was 'cheating'. yes, models can get intermingled during a battle, but it's the players responsibility to at least TRY to keep 'em seperate.

 

There is nothing wrong with moving your groups so that at a glance they SEEM to be all one giant mob. But, in reality, one should use some method to keep 'em seperated. Yes, this allows your opponent to shoot thru a group at another unit (with resulting 4+ cover save), but intermingling to where you can't distinguish between groups is just twisting the rules to your advantage.

 

When playing against my friend's 'nid army, he trys to keep one group seperated by at least 1/2" of space between groups. In the event he ends up with group's bases touching.... each group's base, in the back, is marked with a colored stripe or series of stripes on the base edge. This helps him know which group is which, and keep group members from inter-penetrating another's group.

 

Your friend should do the same. IF he does not, with gentle pursuasion... then cease playing with him and find other players to play with that will not try to bend the rules to their advantage. twisting the rules to benifit you is just cheating in my book. you get one warning from me about it, and should the behaviour continue, I cease playing with you. and yes, I do explain why. Sometimes they amend their ways and I play with them again.... sometimes not. But if a player gets a 'rep' of being a rules twister, then their pool of possible opponents dimishes rapidly until they either fix what they are doing wrong, stop playing, or only play with those that don't know how to play, and thus can get away with such behaviour.

 

The rules say that an enemy unit cannot stop its' move within 1" of an enemy model. But there is no reference to how close you may put your own units together. Base-touching units is not a problem - IF - the units can be distinguished from one another easily, or their bases are marked to make recognition easier. So far as I know, inter-penetration of units is NOT allowed... sort of an 'unwritten' rule, since it's not specifically stated in the rules you CAN do so.

 

Enough from me,

 

Rymeer

[SeerDude]

I`m not sure since I don`t have my rulebook but I`m sure that there is a rule where you can`t get models to go though other squads.

 

Edit: Never mind. see above post.

[Morkhai]

Well, the reason I want to really try and find an official thing that says no is because my friend is the one who works the local gaming store on 40k night. (I.E. that's the store rule now)

[Xman]

I would like to point out that nowhere in the rules does it say you CAN'T mix everything together, as long as you can still tell the difference. However, logic states that one of the units should not get a cover save due to the fact it is the unit that you are shooting through to get at the back unit.

 

You could disagree (if you honestly do) and give them a 5+ cover save.

 

But it is not "cheating" as someone said. It is perfectly legit. But I think there may be a little rules bending involved. Or at least a gray area. So just say you disagree with the cover save, and give them all a 5+. It shouldn't be too hard to make the argument.

[Morkhai]

Well this is how he sets his units up. I'll use ABC to distinguish between squads. I can tell they're different squads but this is the layout of the units:

 

 

A B C A B C A B C

 

C A B C A B C A B

 

B C A B C A B C

 

So pretty much I could hit one model and that model not get a cover save but then the rest of my shots hit models "in cover". I haven't found anything in the rulebook yet saying you can't do this but I think it's really cheap due to the fact that it pretty much gives "invulnerable" saves to ork hordes and 'nid swarms as they book it across the table which messes up the game balance as that's one of the best defences against these kind of armies being that you shoot them to thin them down before the inevitable assault. Just my 2 cents.

[Massawyrm]

Step One: call him a douche for abusing the rules.

Step Two:Tank Shock Rhinos right up the middle of his intermingled mess to force all three units out of coherency.

Step Three: Use Template Weapons like Vindicators, Plasma Cannons, Missiles and Whirlwinds (with the missiles that ignore cover.)

Step Four: Lather Rinse repeat.

 

There was talk of this early on as a concern about the new cover rules and it is just as cheesy as modeling your army shooting from Prone positions or cutting the bottom of your tank to make it a low rider. Sure, you can do it - but you lose serious style points for doing so. So play mean. Tear apart coherency to keep him from shooting, then lay down lots of template pain. Also force him to maneuver through tight areas on the board to keep him from being able to keep everyone spaced 2" apart. Force him to bunch up and then obliterate his troops en masse.

[Morkhai]

Won't he still be able to get cover saves from Plasma Cannons and such? I know the flamers and Whirlwind missiles will ignore cover but not sure about the others. Good idea on the tank shock though, I hadn't really thought about that.

[Pacific81]

I thought doing this was a perfectly valid tactic? Not the tactic of 'mixing', but of achieving the desired effect of having a unit you want to protect behind a 'bullet shield'.

 

Using gretchin to shield a unit of orks is a tactic hailing back to the old 2ed days.

[the jeske]

Step Two:Tank Shock Rhinos right up the middle of his intermingled mess to force all three units out of coherency.

and get three auto hits with powerfists on the back door[as it is hth] .hmm I think the rhino is dead.

 

also all this whining has no sense . an sm player who puts a unit of scouts [with trenchcoats for +1 cover] in front of his devastator squads is using a good tactics , but an ork or nids players is being unsporting ? yeah right . Ever tried to play with a nids army in the 5th [against top tier army lists] ? its plain sad [specially against chaos with lash]. Cover doesnt make nids a better army [they are not even tier 2 right now ] , it gives them a semi fighting chance . And your opponent still can have tons of stuff that ingores or makes cover not so good [all hellfire stuff , flamers , lash , eldrad etc etc ]

[Telveryon]

You know that what he's doing is more of a two edged sword, all his units might be in cover, but so are any enemy units he's trying engage, because while you have to shot through his units to hit any of them, so does he have to shoot through his own units.

 

If he's an ork, and you're using marines then he has a slight edge but I'd wager if you get a few flamers in close there should be allot of ork-stake going around!

[Morkhai]

The reason I'm bringing this up isn't because I think SMs can use cover through units just fine and other armies it's beardy, any army can do this, foot-slogging Black Templar/Khorne armies and just about anyone else. I was referring to 'Nids and Orks in particular because when I think "Horde Army" that's what comes to mind with me. I'm talking about how the unit is set up. If it was one unit, then another behind it and then another behind it, I wouldn't have ever thought anything was wrong. I'm just wondering how it works if 3 units are all mixed up on the same spot. If he has gretchin standing in front of his guys that's totally fine by me. You want to screen your Hormaguants by putting your Termagaunts in front of them? That's cool. I just want to know if it works with models being jumbled into a big mess, because for some reason it makes no sense to me. If one unit is in front of another then the unit in back gets cover saves, but the unit in front does not however. With how this is set up it's entirely possible to make your entire army count as being in cover the entire time.

[Morkhai]

Basically, I'm just wondering if there is a way I can avoid this conversation without it going into a huge arguement:

 

Me: I'm shooting at your Ork Nobz.

 

Other guy: Ok, but they get a 4+ cover cuz they are behind the boyz.

 

Me: Ok, well I'll shoot at the boyz.

 

Other guy: Well, they're behind the Nobz so they get a 4+ cover.

[o'rieley]

well have another look at the rulebook p11. "models in the way" paragraph. and if hes a horde player p34. "moving assaulting models". There must be a unit in front which will not get the cover save, and is giving the save to others, ie one unit is screening the following units. if there isnt a unit in front, you can assume they are all in front and your opponent doesnt get a cover save. also flamers ignore cover.

[Mildew]

Basically, I'm just wondering if there is a way I can avoid this conversation without it going into a huge arguement:

 

Me: I'm shooting at your Ork Nobz.

 

Other guy: Ok, but they get a 4+ cover cuz they are behind the boyz.

 

Me: Ok, well I'll shoot at the boyz.

 

Other guy: Well, they're behind the Nobz so they get a 4+ cover.

 

Someone stars doing that, well there is only one reply......................... 'Have a nice day', and then pack up and leave.

 

To be frank you'll always find players like this, and in my experience you NEVER end up having a fun 'game' against these chaps (as you spend all the time arguing). If your opponent can't see a common sense resolution to a problem (or even worse start to manover his troops to cause a problem), then your common sense should be telling you to 'get out of there'.

 

40K (like most wargaming rules/periods) is only as much fun as you and your fellow gamers make the game.

[Mildew]

well have another look at the rulebook p11. "models in the way" paragraph. and if hes a horde player p34. "moving assaulting models". There must be a unit in front which will not get the cover save, and is giving the save to others, ie one unit is screening the following units. if there isnt a unit in front, you can assume they are all in front and your opponent doesnt get a cover save. also flamers ignore cover.

 

Valid point, if some of the models are providing cover for a second unit, and some models in the second unit are porviding cover for the first unit. Then that means there are models from both units at the front. So if your opponent, starts to argue that both are in cover, then simply point and state 'I'm shooting at the troops in front of that mass of models. Now I'll kindly let you rearrange them so clearly show which unit is in front, or I'll decide which unit is in front if you can't decide yourself'.

 

.....But then your getting into the argument, and thats probably more effort than its worth. Naaah take a walk and find better opponents.

[Massawyrm]

Step Two:Tank Shock Rhinos right up the middle of his intermingled mess to force all three units out of coherency.

and get three auto hits with powerfists on the back door[as it is hth] .hmm I think the rhino is dead.

Since when? Death or Glory attacks are always against the front (pg 68) and a stopped tanks stops right in front of the model making the attack - still forcing a clump. You have a good point though about the powerfists (I'm not prone to tankshocking units with them myself, and don't often play Orks.) It's a risky tactic.

 

But I would hardly compare it to hiding a unit behind another for cover. In that case the front unit isn't getting a free cover save and the units don't posses the freedom of movement that this abuse does.

[Morkhai]

.....But then your getting into the argument, and thats probably more effort than its worth. Naaah take a walk and find better opponents.

 

True, but when the common rule at my gaming store is if there's an arguement about rules ask the store employees to make the call and the guy who thought of this first is the guy running the store and most people at my store try to take every advantage they can...

 

Maybe I should re-evaluate the other stores around. I went to the current one because they seemed the least messed up but I'll take another look I suppose.

[Teg]

Step Two:Tank Shock Rhinos right up the middle of his intermingled mess to force all three units out of coherency.

and get three auto hits with powerfists on the back door[as it is hth] .hmm I think the rhino is dead.

Since when? Death or Glory attacks are always against the front (pg 68) and a stopped tanks stops right in front of the model making the attack - still forcing a clump. You have a good point though about the powerfists (I'm not prone to tankshocking units with them myself, and don't often play Orks.) It's a risky tactic.

 

But I would hardly compare it to hiding a unit behind another for cover. In that case the front unit isn't getting a free cover save and the units don't posses the freedom of movement that this abuse does.

The Death-or-Glory guy also only gets one attack. One powerfist to the front is a lot less frightening than three to the back. :D

 

However, if the tank is stunned/immobilized/destroyed then yes, you will get three PF attacks in the back next turn Also around 40-80 S4 attacks from the Boyz. Ouch...

[Massawyrm]

No, I think The Jeske is right on the thee powerfist count...as you are charging through each unit - and doesn't each UNIT get one guy to attack? Or is it actually only one fighter? Also, if I'm not mistaken, it's not any one from the unit, but any model specifically being shocked (pg 69)...so if you avoid the fist, you're in the clear. Not exactly the hardest thing to do when shocking 60-90 guys at a time...

[Teg]

Ah, didn't think of that. >.<

 

I think you'd treat it as though you tank shock each unit in turn: the first unit would take a Ld test, then a model from that unit can make a DoG attempt, then if the tank is still mobile then the repeat with unit 2, then if still mobile, unit 3. That's three auto-hit Power Klaw (or however they spell it!) attacks.

[Snozz]

Yes true, but if they actually get to make the three attacks then that means that at least 2 of the power klaws are dead because the tank wouldn't be moving if one of them had destroyed it, and if you don't destroy the tank you get dealt with by the poor servitor with the pressure hose who cleans the tank tracks after battle. And by my reckoning, one Rhino for 2 power Klaws is a good trade. Though I don't know the exact price.

 

Edit: Take as many flamers as you can. A demon hunter inquisitor ally can help. One inquisitor with an incinerator is only 50 points, and for another 45 he can take 3 flamer troops. Hide that behind one of your marine squads (with a flamer of course) and then burst forth from the middle when you reach the orks, unload 5 flamer templates on them, with no cover saves AND because you'll be hitting at least one model in each unit he has no shortage of models to remove AND remember you place all flamer templates before you allocate wounds so find a really dense spot (Shouldn't be hard with all those models) and hit all flamers on the same point, then make sure you have plenty of dice. Roast ork. Scrummy. Also the closer you get the better the damage you can do because there are no partial hits, so even the thin end can hit several orks. If you feel really mean, take He'stan from the new space marine codex, and all of those flamers get master crafted. Oh wow just realised you play Salamanders so it's not even beardy. Now go forth and remember the BBQ sauce brother. ;)

[InquisitorPhred]

Well this is how he sets his units up. I'll use ABC to distinguish between squads. I can tell they're different squads but this is the layout of the units:

A B C A B C A B C

 

C A B C A B C A B

 

B C A B C A B C

So pretty much I could hit one model and that model not get a cover save but then the rest of my shots hit models "in cover". I haven't found anything in the rulebook yet saying you can't do this but I think it's really cheap due to the fact that it pretty much gives "invulnerable" saves to ork hordes and 'nid swarms as they book it across the table which messes up the game balance as that's one of the best defences against these kind of armies being that you shoot them to thin them down before the inevitable assault. Just my 2 cents.

 

It's a totally legal way toget cover saves. The booking it across the table is where the flagrant cheating is probably happening. When packing up and leaving isn't the option, the simple solution is to politely require that the opponent play the entire game in a totally legal fashion. This is absolute death for them in a tournament, very rarely will an assault army win a game that only has time to get 3 or less turns in.

 

Measure exactly 6" of true movement for each *individual* miniature, accounting for going around the other units. Do not pass through any gaps smaller than the base. Keep the 1" side of a TAC template handy every time he trys to walk through the gap between two models in the other two units. Nope, sorry! Do not move one unit until another is completely done. Require that all assault moves be made exactly according to RAW, no more than a true 6", accounting for running around the other models. Check unit coherency regularly.

 

Claiming cover for intermixed units is not cheating. Picking up rows of models and leap frogging them 6" over other units is very much outright cheating. The arrangement you drew is almost impossible to actually move forward with.

 

Two units intermixed can be more or less managed legally as long as they only walk straight forward. It's almost impossible to make legal moves and legal assaults with 3 intermixed units.

[maniclurker]

I love the above poster. Finally, someone who can explain to me why this set up has a down side. Oh, and the orc players I play constantly field 150+ models, and more than one has bragged about how they are going to do this. Not to mention the fact that a great many of these orc players have a rather long 6" movement. I guess if they start this b-s, then I'll stop being lenient with their movement and assaults, and be rather strict about the whole mess.

[Mildew]

I'd discourage it as 'legal'......

 

Screening troops (where a unit is CLEARLY in front of another) is legal, and covered in the 5th Ed Rulebook.

 

Troops screening each other, so that no unit is 'in the open' is obviously not covered in the 5th Ed.

 

Just because the rulebook doesn't clearly catagorically state you can't, doesn't mean you can.

 

For instance the logic to this mixed unit mess is similar to 'all my troops get a 4+ inv save because I had a bannana for breakfast'. The rulebook doesn't say anything about mixed mob units (other than 2 units would be ranked up next to each other (Remember squad members can only be 2" apart, AND each squad would have to be EXACTLY the same distance from the firing unit AND each squad would have to have exactly the same amount of troops in the first rank to actually be 'mixed')....and all this isn't in the same section as the one explaining troops offering cover saves(I wonder why).

 

Honestly, if a player feels this legal and tourney proof, then I've got some real estate to sell you :whistling: