Psychic Hood

[Ambro]

As the title says does it still count as being used if the power is nullified, I couldnt see anything specific relating to it in either the SM codex or the DH codex. This is primarily an issue for shooting attacks as if your shooting attack is nullified then would you still be able to shoot a weapon. I always assumed that it did but upon closer inspection I cant see anything which says that it does and in the rule description it just says that the psychic power may not be used that turn?

[SpideyScott]

Well you have to declare what unit your shooting at with your psychic power. So when its stopped you can choose another target just like with any shooting attack if you fail to hit or are outta range etc you cant simply choose another target. I use the hood to good affect agaisnt tyranids warp blast etc.

[Praeger]

Its considered your shooting atack.

 

If you miss with your bolter, can you fire your pistol?

[Ambro]

Thats true, but if you are stopped from firing you bolter before it actually gets a chance to miss then you would fire your pistol instead.

[SeattleDV8]

Not the same at all. you attempted to use the power, if you failed your Perils of the warp roll you would not get to shoot your weapon. the fact that you were stopped just means the power "missed"

[Ambro]

The fact that you were stopped just means the power was stopped and so couldn't be used... where does it say that it has missed or did you just make that up. We all have are opinions on how it is intended to work but I am asking about rules which is how it "actually" works by RAW.

[SeattleDV8]

The power was used. the fact that the hood stopped Its effect does not change that. missed was in quotes...it was a simple way to show the logic.

[Iron Father Rik]

To use a psychic power you must first declare that you are using it, then you must test to see if it is successfull. As soon as this test is rolled for you have made your move and are committed. The enemy only attempts to stop the power after it has tested as a successful use of psychic abilities, therefore the power has already been used and counts as such.

[Ambro]

Actually the power was not used. Here is an extract from the ruling for psychic hood. "If the Daemonhunter beats the opposing model's score then the psychic power is nullified and may not be used that turn". May not be used that turn means that the power hasnt been used at all which is why I think it's either bad wording or maybe GW intended that another ability can be used instead.

[Iron Father Rik]

Actually the power was not used. Here is an extract from the ruling for psychic hood. "If the Daemonhunter beats the opposing model's score then the psychic power is nullified and may not be used that turn". May not be used that turn means that the power hasnt been used at all which is why I think it's either bad wording or maybe GW intended that another ability can be used instead.

 

If it was the latter, then you would end up constantly using power after power until one beat the psychic hood, or the psyker suffered perils of the warp. There would be no point in it at all, since each nullified power would count as not being used, then you'd try another and another until you were successful.

[nighthawks]

generally speaking, once you roll dice for an ability, test, etc.. in a phase, the opportunity for the model/unit to do anything else is lost. if you make a difficult terrain test, you can't decide to move 6" in a different direction if you don't like the result. roughly the same thing here.

[GTang]

If a power wasn't used, it couldn't be nullified by the Psychic Hood.

 

The null rod text in the current DH FAQ says that powers like that count as being used.

[Ambro]

If it was the latter, then you would end up constantly using power after power until one beat the psychic hood, or the psyker suffered perils of the warp. There would be no point in it at all, since each nullified power would count as not being used, then you'd try another and another until you were successful.

 

No thats not true as it does say the power may not be used that turn so you couldnt keep using the same ability again.

 

generally speaking, once you roll dice for an ability, test, etc.. in a phase, the opportunity for the model/unit to do anything else is lost. if you make a difficult terrain test, you can't decide to move 6" in a different direction if you don't like the result. roughly the same thing here.

 

It does specifically state that in the rulebook though, this is different as there is nothing specifically saying you cant use another ability.

[SeattleDV8]

you are missing the point.A nullified power just means that the power is used but has no effect. A normal model gets one shot in the shooting phase. the libby can use a power instead of the shot. by rolling for perils of the warp you have used your one shot. doesn't matter what happens after that. that is your action for the shooting phase.

[Ambro]

Your missing the point actually, I understand perfectly what your trying to say as that is how I play the rule anyway. But as I said above this is a rules forum and everything ive mentioned is fact in the rule book wheras everything you mentioning is somthing youve made up to suit your own interpretation.

[SpideyScott]

psychic shooting powers follow the rules for shooting, that is in the rule book. so you must declare a unit you are targeting and then check range and fire (roll a psychic test). Hoods come in to affect at the last part meaning the player has already targeted and shot at a unit. Once this is happened regardless if you miss etc you cant choose another target. The only excepts are MC's that fire 2 weapons or psychic attacks at the one unit or models that can use 2 psychic powers per phase. They could fire again. Basically for psychic shooting powers they follow the normal shooting rules unless specifically stated that they dont.

[Ambro]

The problem is that the rulebook does not state what happens when a unit attempting to shoot at another unit is stopped from be able to shoot. It is important to make a disctinction as well between actually missing your target eg rolling the dice and then missing and being physically stopped from shooting in one way or another. There are only a couple of other times this situation occurs in the rules where a unit is stopped from shooting rather than actually missing eg shrouding, nightfighting and in both those cases it specifically states that the unit may not shoot at another target so it is clear, in the psychic hood description it doesnt state any condition other than the psychic power can not be used in that turn which would mean that you can use a different psychic power or shoot another weapon.

[SpideyScott]

But the unit that was stopped from shooting has already pick a unit to shoot at so how can it pick another unit? Once youve picked a target you cant unpick it regardless if you missed or were stopped from shooting.

I dont see a problem there. If a unit is able to fire 2 or more psychic powers per turn it still can only choose one unit to fire at and each psychic shot nullified wouldnt work for the rest of the turn.

[nighthawks]

I am confused as to the problem as well - we all seem to agree, though Ambro wants to find proof, that a psychic power nullified is a psychic power used, just the same. is that right?

 

if a power may only be used once in the turn, then the attempt to cast that power satisfies that use.

 

Ambro used a shooting example. in shooting, withough considering special powers such as shrouding, a unit must declare a target unit or model, then check range, then roll dice. if the target unit is found to be out of range for any or all weapons of the firing unit, then tough - there are no shots resolved and the firing unit is not allowed to act further in that phase. yes, I know this is explicitly spelled out in the BBB, and that the psychic test is not. sorry, it's the best I can do...

[Ambro]

I am confused as to the problem as well - we all seem to agree, though Ambro wants to find proof, that a psychic power nullified is a psychic power used, just the same. is that right?

 

Yes that is correct although I don't mind if there is proof or not, I just noticed it when I was reading the rule so I posted it on here. Also it does seem slightly overpowered for an item that only costs 20 points to be able completly cripple psykers who might have spent a lot of points to get their powers especially if they are only leadership 8 and the librarian with the hood is leadership 10.

[Praeger]

Ok, so the simple answer would be this.

 

Psychic rules follow ALL shooting rules unless SPECIFICLY mentioned.

 

Are there any specific rules allowing you to use another power if your original can not be used becouse of a hood?

 

Remebering that all weapons (including psychic) MUST be mentioned before rolls are made.

 

The proof really resides in the fact that there is no proof saying you can do anything else.

 

This would work exactly the same was as a bolter firing at a Harlequin - weapon can not be used if the roll isnt met.