Rewrite the Horus Heresy

[Godspear]

Hey Doc, I still disagree with you on female space marines. :)

 

Now, as for Horus, you can be a tactical genius while being a strategic failure. When anything in the military is said to be tactical, it means that the object in question is associated with achieving victory after the battle has started and ends when the battle does. Tactical thinking focuses on means and narrow ends, not global ends, and sees things through a relatively short time period. It is narrow in scope, and affects few functional areas. So, it is appropriate that Horus is called a tactical genius because he can orchestrate a battle with superhuman intelligence and efficiency, however, perhaps the nuances of the overarching war eluded him.

 

However, if it were me, I would have taken those remembrancers, mind wiped them, and reprogrammed their heads with chaos lore and an innate love for the ruinous powers, kinda like how space marines have that love of the Emperor instilled in them. Then, I would drop a few off on every planet I conquered, building secret cults while feigning loyalty to the Emperor. I'm immortal, I've got the time. I would borrow chaplains from the Word Bearers, and slowly turn my marines more through faith than the lodges. Those that did not turn would simply find themselves dead on a random battlefield in the service of the emperor, no need for grandoise displays of rebellion or alerting the Emperor to my true intention. Let the Emperor complete his secret project, it can only help me in the long run. When he's done, take him on a cruise around Istvaan, because we didn't blow it up, and blast his ass out of an airlock. Blame it on a failure in life support or some such nonsense, name a holiday after him, take the throne. After the death of their god king, people will need something to turn to. Bring "grieving counsellors," from all those cult planets I've already created out to Terra to console the grieving population. Use the pain of the still loyal primarchs as a opening for conversion. Anyone that doesn't turn gets obliterated, dubbed heretics, and met with the full might of His Majesty Horus' Imperial Guard and the Traitor Legions.

[Pulse]

Now, as for Horus, you can be a tactical genius while being a strategic failure. When anything in the military is said to be tactical, it means that the object in question is associated with achieving victory after the battle has started and ends when the battle does. Tactical thinking focuses on means and narrow ends, not global ends, and sees things through a relatively short time period. It is narrow in scope, and affects few functional areas. So, it is appropriate that Horus is called a tactical genius because he can orchestrate a battle with superhuman intelligence and efficiency, however, perhaps the nuances of the overarching war eluded him.

Your bang on with that matey, i very much agree. Its something pratically all people seem to miss, then again unless your military minded/have been/are in the military you wouldn't see it.

 

They're based of a human genetic template- so my vote is they do feel human emotions, etc. Though I think they're supposed to be conditioned to be stronger in controlling emotions having to be generals of vast galactic armies and all.

I agree with that 100%. The marines are of near full human genetic template, there is no way you can get around them having emotions. They are conditioned so as to control their emotions but even still their emotions come out, emotions cannot be fully blocked out no matter what anyone says or how the "fluff" indicates. Then again all the Primarchs had emotions and they were the Emperors' "ultimate creations", so that pretty much says it all in a 40k "fluff" sense, emoitons cannot be removed.

 

As for changing the Hersey i think it was a huge concern that the council of Terra was formed. I think people like Malcador the Sigalite had a role definately and that he should have kept the power he had, but the others should not have had the authority to speak on the Emperor's behalf. The Emperor being completely focused on his project im sure would have thought the council were doing a good job and so let them do their job, but i think they actually started to ruin the Emperors plan very early on. I mean sending out taxation staff plus all the rest to hassle all of the Primarchs i mean come on, would the Emperor really allow so many annoying distractions to interfere with his Primarchs (sons/generals) i don't think so at all.

 

All those remembrancers getting in the way wasn't very clever as they got in the way of what essentially was a military operation. Yes they had a role to play in documenting what was panning out amoungst the stars, but they should have been doing it in far smaller numbers and once the operations where out of the way.

 

There are so many more i could mention. :P

[Doctor Thunder]

Hey Doc, I still disagree with you on female space marines. :huh:

Really, cause from the tone of your posts I totally thought I had convinced you. B)

[Servant of Ultramar]

They're based of a human genetic template- so my vote is they do feel human emotions, etc. Though I think they're supposed to be conditioned to be stronger in controlling emotions having to be generals of vast galactic armies and all.

 

I distinctly remember a Space Marine as saying, "We feel fear, we just don't act on it" or some such. I believe it was either Loken or Ragnar who said this.

 

I'd say Space Marines can most definitely feel human emotions.

[Master Jeridian]

All those remembrancers getting in the way wasn't very clever as they got in the way of what essentially was a military operation. Yes they had a role to play in documenting what was panning out amoungst the stars, but they should have been doing it in far smaller numbers and once the operations where out of the way.

 

Bit late then, hard to document a war after it's over, after the records are burnt, the mass graves buried...

 

We have to remember that the Emperor's new order was far closer to today than to 40k. He preached truth, transparency in organisations, athiesm (or humanism), trust in scientific progress and hope.

He imparted these wishes to his Primarchs when he found them.

 

Sending out rememberancers is exactly like sending out embedded journalists today- it's to show your people why and how the war is being fought in their name, and why they should support it. A modern society of personal freedoms and shared social responsbility does this, a 40k era society of fascist dictatorships and brutal dogma does not.

 

Unfortunately, the Primarchs were flawed either by genetics or by the various hellish ways they where forced to grow-up.

 

 

That the Emperor never bothered to explain the danger of Chaos and it's sentient evils that tempt to his Primarch's who where sent out to fight it is just simply imcomprehensible. It's a paradox in the story arc which makes an otherwise amazingly in-depth and intricate background- a bit silly.

[c-wrex]

I think Tim's (the Emperor's name is SO Tim) motivation for not explaining Chaos to the boys was along the lines of 'what they don't know won't hurt 'em' so he figured if he didn't teach them of chaos, then they wouldn't be interested in exploring it or learning of it. The fluff shows that the primarchs weren't terribly interested in things not pertaining to the military matters of the crusade, barring the personal likes and dislikes of the primarchs (Fulgrim's affection of art, Vulkan's penchant for crafting, etc.), so it seems reasonable to assume that they wouldn't go out of their way to seek out the nature of Chaos.

[Master Jeridian]

It's essentially not telling the Primarchs there are bad people who are locked up for crimes, then tasking them with cleaning the prison courtyards.

 

I get your example, but it's not just 'what they don't know won't hurt them'- the Emperor knew the Chaos powers existed, he knew they where fighting against him (the act of stealing the Primarchs for one), yet he tasked the Primarchs with going out into the galaxy and subduing worlds, many under the thrall of Chaos without telling them about the foe.

 

What you don't know will hurt you if your sent to face it.

[Ubermensch Commander]

Horus used armies as others would have used squads....at least according the Black Legion IA. So it wasn't strategic stupidity on Horus part to do what he did. Horus knew that he had to strike fast and hard or he would never have had a chance at the Emperor himself. Remember, the loyalist forces were still the majority. Horus rolled the dice at the Siege of Terra...and the pips came up "you are freaking dead Horus." Horus also attacked when he did because that was when his Chaos allies were at their strongest, cutting communicae and riling up warp storms to hamper the Loyalists activies. Remember, the storms began abating toward the end of the Siege of the Emperor's Palace. Horus struck when he thought had the best chance of victory.

Also, a few things happened that Horus never planned on: First: the loyalist elements of the World Eaters, Emperor's Children, and Death Guard receiving warning of the impending virus bombing and holding out. Second: Exacerbating this problem is that Horus never had COMPLETE control/command of his brother primarchs. Angron went down to the planet to sate his bloodlust, preventing Horus from just BLASTING the survivors to nothingness from orbit.

Third: The Eisenstein folks warning the Imperium of Horus' treachery, despite Dorn's best efforts to be a stubborn jackass. *shown evidence and still I DONT BELIEVE IT! I SHOULD KILL YOU!* Friggin twit.

I think I am forgetting Fulgrim's botched attempt to get Ferrus onboard with Horus against Horus orders....or was that retconned?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Ubermensch Commander Posted Today, 11:04 PM

Horus rolled the dice at the Siege of Terra...and the pips came up "you are freaking dead Horus."

 

Clearly even Horus can't roll 2+ saves :lol:

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I think I am forgetting Fulgrim's botched attempt to get Ferrus onboard with Horus against Horus orders....or was that retconned?

 

no, this still happened, only now with horus's permission...fulgrim insisted it could be done, horus trusted him to do so.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Servant of Ultramar]

Admittedly, Horus was saddled with incompetent fellow commanders that he couldn't really exert influence over fighting a group of extremely determined and resolute enemies acting almost in concert.

 

However, he took out the better part of three enemy legions in one fell swoop, never even really had to bother with the Ultramarines, and yet he still couldn't win. :\

[Neraka]

I think it is inevitable that Horus would failed.

 

1) Horus was not his usual self. He is of two-minds about the Heresy.

Remember, he still has affection for his brothers (eg. offering Sanguinius an opportunity to join him).

And was he possessed ? In the mini-story about the final battle, after the Emperor struck the fatal blow, Horus finally realized what he has done (dont have access to the full story now) - does this mean that he was living in a haze ?

 

So Horus most probably was not operating at full efficiency; which is no good, especially when dealing against the best and brightest in the Galaxy.

 

 

2) In addition there are several possible "hidden hands" which would have been working behind the scenes.

 

a) Eldar - Craftworld Farseers would have wet their pants at the thought of Horus winning.

They would have tried everything in their powers to prevent Horus winning.

 

;) Tzeentch - while he enjoyed Horus' treachery, he probably thought that it would be an even greater treachery to play Horus out... perhaps a psychic suggestion to Horus to lower his barge's shields so as to entice the Emperor to mount a teleport assault. And whatever happened to those Greater Daemons supposed to be in Horus' barge when the teleport assault took place ? Play hide-and-seek with the Emperor ?

 

:)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

BEWARE SPOILERS!

 

 

Neraka Posted Today, 05:18 AM

a) Eldar - Craftworld Farseers would have wet their pants at the thought of Horus winning.

They would have tried everything in their powers to prevent Horus winning.

 

No, in 'Legion' the Eldar show Alpharius the future, revealing that if horus wins he will destroy humanity through his guilt, meaning that the chaos gods will not be able to take over the galaxy. Not sure why (I don't have my copy on me), but it is clear that the Eldar wanted Horus to win the Heresy to gain the eventual defeat of the Chaos Gods.

[Skirax]

Tzeentch - while he enjoyed Horus' treachery, he probably thought that it would be an even greater treachery to play Horus out... perhaps a psychic suggestion to Horus to lower his barge's shields so as to entice the Emperor to mount a teleport assault. And whatever happened to those Greater Daemons supposed to be in Horus' barge when the teleport assault took place ? Play hide-and-seek with the Emperor?

 

If you read a certian topic on the B&C, you will notice that someone put forth an idea that the Alpha Legion actually took part in making the greatest con ever: The Death of Horus. they were mysteriously absent from near every battle fought against the Loyalists and they were not present during the Siege of Terra. the reason there was no Greater Deamons on his ship was coz the alphas summoned them away, shut down horus' shields to allow the Emperor to board the Vengeful Spirit while Horus was in a state of shock and kill the traitor. Answer your question?

 

BTW, love this idea, wish GW did a compition where you got to rewrite the events of the heresy after Isstvan. would be AWESOME! :devil:

[angronn]

The Alpha Legion are the new Deus Ex Machina for 40K (it used to be Tzeentch - why aren't they more affiliated?).

 

Horus was both a strategic and tactical genius, working well on both big and little pictures (wouldn't make much sense to have him as Warmaster otherwise!). I think the problem is hindsight - there are numerous ways to justify why Horus failed; conjunction of Chaos powers fading, inner self struggling, undependable brother-Primarchs, lesser numbers.

 

I think the key is that Horus had to strike fast. He had fewer troops, but the element of surprise. In that situation, you need to behead the enemy, which is exactly what he tried to do.

[warmaster zhufor]

maybe deep down inside he wanted to fail.

or it's the way it had to happen for the game.

[Contaminus]

Theres a divided opinion on that. Some, like me, think that the Imperium would have been better off with the full legions and without the meddling of the codex, whislt others--mostly Ultramarine players, and there are many--think that what he did was good for the Imperium. Sure, he held the Imperium together after the heresy, but he almost ignited another galactic civil war because of his stubborness and self-righteousness. Dorn backed down at the last moment because he did not want to see the Imperium engulfed into another civil war, but if he hadn't, Gulliman certainly would have not backed down, and then the Imperium would have been destroyed.

 

As I said, there are two sides on that, so I wouldn't be surprised if somone else decided to jump in now and argue.

 

*right on cue*

 

Right, I know this is a bit off-topic but I can't let something like that go unopposed. Dorn vs Guilliman: Nowhere does it specifically state that Guilliman was stubborn other than in writing done by people who quite obviously don't like the guy. Practically every piece of fluff I've read on Dorn states he is as stubborn as a rock shoved up an ox's bottom (Not in those words, obviously). Guilliman was in that moment stubborn, yes but it shows that the Primarch who is never described as stubborn obviously really believed that what he was doing was the only thing that would save his people (by which I don't mean the people were ruled by him. I mean he was one of them- before somebody jumps and yells 'ZOMG, GWILLIMAN IS BAD CAUSE HE RULES PPL AND STUFF').

 

It's an unstoppable force meeting the well-document immovable object that is Rogal Dorn, and the only reason that a civil war didn't ignite is because, as stubborn as Dorn is/was, he loved humanity more and didn't want to see it set ablaze. They were both doing what they thought was right and since there have been numerous space marine rebellions since the Horus Heresy and none of them have ended up with a siege on Terra because of their lack of numbers; I'd say Guilliman did pretty well.

[Muppetism32]

Horus was a (heritical) genius... his plan was perfect (well sort of) the most powerful legions where sent away from terra, and the loyal to him where close.... Perfect.

I have two theories on why he failed:

 

1. Luck. (for us)

 

2. (Far more heritcal) according to some lost bits of history the Emperor has been around for... well just about ever. So the onthing that could be as powerful as he is supossed to be is a dark god. So, The Emperor is a Fith chaos god... and is is said by the (xeno scum) Eldar that a fith chaos god would destroy the other four and rule the universe... So at the last minute the Chaos gods relised this (duh, that took a while :wallbash: ) and abandoned Horus to his fate...

 

Personally... as a really good evil (heritcal) genius i woud have slain the emperor on the quiet, and took his place... (easy as hell because no one has seen him in... well a very long time)

[Pacific81]

maybe deep down inside he wanted to fail.

or it's the way it had to happen for the game.

 

Indeed this was one of the older pieces of fluff stated that at the last, when the palace was about to fall and all seemed lost, that Horus lowered the shields on his battle barge. But it is unknown whether he did this to witness his fathers death, or because he finally had a vestige of regret.

 

But, since Collected Visions seems to be the plan that the Heresy books series are following, expect Horus to remain a 2-dimensional evil comic-book character until the very end with plenty of mwa-ha-ha-ha's.