Using the Loyalist codex to represent Night Lords

[Monkeychunks]

Ello chaps,

 

I'm an ex Night Lords player from 3.5. Like many others, I shelved my army when 4.0 hit, but this thread is neither the time nor place to discuss that book. However, the new codex, and its emphasis on rapid strikes, is really appealing to me to recreate them.

 

While fine from a competitive view, the Chaos codex can make it rather challenging to truly theme a list because of the generalisation and removal of alot of options. Also, the book itself lacks many 'scary' elements, which Night Lords are known to specialise in. Dirge Casters are scary, as are sudden Deep Strikes. Daemons are very scary, but Night Lords are known to use fairly few.

 

Using the Loyalist codex, my entire army can strike from nowhere as a Drop Assault. Vanguard Veterans, which could be rationalised as extremely unhinged Champions, scream into combat with no retaliation. Combat Tactics means the attackers can't be pinned down and are constantly on the assault with bullet and chainsword. Scouts can be an underground cult, the Scout Bikers are the outriders calling in the strike, and the Land Speeder Storm could be a daemonically possessed Skiff. Leadership penalties and cutting off reserves is very much in theme with Terror Tactics.

 

Also, from a gameplay perspective, Chaos seems to play more like a melee zerg. Units tend to stick together and run up the field, while Obliterators and Terminators strike in to neutralise units. While fine for some armies, I've always imagined Night Lords as being smarter than that. The last book detailed how they make rapid strikes at unprotected areas, before pulling out to avoid retaliation. Drop Pods in, Combat Tactics out, so very in theme.

 

Finally, every unit would be there because of theme, not power. General opinion is that Vanguard are underpowered, yet I would be taking a fair few. No special characters, because none of them really help the theme.

 

 

So yeah, whatcha reckon? Would people have problems with me playing Night Lords with Loyalist rules?

[Dammeron]

No problem whatsoever. As you say, the loyalist list is much more adequate for tailoring your army towards the specific theme you are going for. I wonder if players from some of the other "Undivided" legions have thought of ways that their particular armies could function under the loyalist codex?

[Deneris]

I actually think Alpha Legion forces will THRIVE with the new space Marine codex. Scouts (In all their forms) can be "Operatives", and I imagine that 10k years of fighting would leave the Alphas with a hardened cadre of veterans (Vanguard and Sternguard units) with specialized gear to "defeat the enemy with whatever weapons are at hand".

[Rain]

All of the secular legions are probably better represented by the loyalist codex, and I am considering a similar route for my Iron Warriors since they can take siege dreadnoughts, the HQ unit can call in an orbital strike, there are techmarines, and said techmarines can use a long range artillery type gun, and the veterans can actually take upgraded ammunition which seems like something the Iron Warriors would come up with after 10,000 years of obsession with their wargear. The problem is just that I would feel strangely dirty using a codex with Ultramarines on the cover, and I suppose some people would refuse to play a counts as army.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

All of the secular legions are probably better represented by the loyalist codex, and I am considering a similar route for my Iron Warriors since they can take siege dreadnoughts, the HQ unit can call in an orbital strike, there are techmarines, and said techmarines can use a long range artillery type gun, and the veterans can actually take upgraded ammunition which seems like something the Iron Warriors would come up with after 10,000 years of obsession with their wargear. The problem is just that I would feel strangely dirty using a codex with Ultramarines on the cover, and I suppose some people would refuse to play a counts as army.

 

They can't refuse to play against marines painted as Iron Warriors any more than they can refuse to play against marines painted any other color.

[Trve]

Im using the new codex to revamp my Night Lords as a pre-heresy army Nightlords Army.

 

 

Ill actually be able to take drop pods now!

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Isn't there something in the new codex that lets you get infiltrate on most of your forces? If so It'd be perfect for Alpha Legion.

[Smurfalypse]

I was flipping through the new codex friday and i felt the exact same thing, that all the undivided legions could be represented in that codex better then they could in our own chaos book. I would have absolutely no problems with someone doing this against me. I run word bearers and nothing else pretty much (every so often i will build a khorne army and mess around, but nothing serious), i would probably feel a little on the side of maybe it was a cop out from the chaos players stand point, but i 100% understand just how well some of these legions can look and feel on the battlefield and just how poorly they are represented in their own dex. By all means give it a whirl, the "counts-as" rule is there for this very reason, in fact i have a game against a guy sunday with the new marine dex, and i might write up pre-hersey word bearers just to mess around and see some of the goofey stuff they got.

 

Good luck to ya and i hope it all works out. Im actually very excited about how the last two codexs have been done and it makes me feel very optimistic about codexs to come later down the line. They seem to finally be getting away from that standardization crud and realizing just how important fluff and customization is to us players.

[Bogus]

I agree with what many others are saying. It's a good idea and seems to be well rationalized. I'm thinking about trying the same thing myself.

 

Personally, I would shy away from some of the more "modern" space marine units, such as the landspeeders, but that's just me.

 

I hope that you play with a fun group who isn't too hung up on the "counts as" issue. It's a great idea and I wish you luck with it.

[Brother Nihm]

No problem whatsoever. As you say, the loyalist list is much more adequate for tailoring your army towards the specific theme you are going for. I wonder if players from some of the other "Undivided" legions have thought of ways that their particular armies could function under the loyalist codex?

I've been using Codex BA for some time now and it fits rather well in an all jump troop list (which I sometimes use) and then there's the wonderful psy-power : Fear of the Darkness.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Unfortunately, it seems they're going to lose that power... Still, I say go for it. I'd be a hypocrite if I said I wasn't planning the exact same thing.

[Legatus]

Since that idear seems to be generally well recieved, let me be the first one to tell you that I find that to be a pretty lame move. Another army has shinier new toys, so you use their rules instead. I am not sure if that is worse than insisting on using the old Codex Chaos, which is pretty lame as well. Trying to justify the units and rules a Night Lord army might have (elite assault squads, hit and run) is one thing, but trying to justify units and rules a Night Lord or any other chaos army should not have (land speeders, scouts, scout bikes) makes it hard to see it as anything other than the desire for the new and better rules.

If I was to meet someone who was playing his chaos legion after the old Codex Chaos or the new Codex Space Marines instead of their designated current Codex Chaos Space Marines, I would not refuse to play him, since I am a polite person, but I would not think very high of that person anyway.

 

I know that voicing such criticism in a forum thread comes across as antagonistic or even trolling, but if you only get responses from like minded players who might even have thought about such a move themself, you might get the idear that everything is just fine with that idear and no one could ever have a problem with it. I am hereby pointing out that that isn't the case.

 

And is it not pandering to other sources of power (be it a chaos deity, or a different army list) other than your own that is looked down upon by the Night Lords?

[Monkeychunks]

Ultimately all the Chaos Legions have been reduced to is a paint scheme and self imposed restrictions. I would be miffed too if it was purely to play with better rules / cheaper models. But doing it to play a style which is impossible to recreate with your own list?

 

 

After all, all that would be different is the colours and models. What about an identical army list, using Imperial Fist models? A chapter known for its siege nature, and not for its hit & run? Its the same case, bending the fluff to use different toys.

[Smurfalypse]

Since that idear seems to be generally well recieved, let me be the first one to tell you that I find that to be a pretty lame move. Another army has shinier new toys, so you use their rules instead. I am not sure if that is worse than insisting on using the old Codex Chaos, which is pretty lame as well. Trying to justify the units and rules a Night Lord army might have (elite assault squads, hit and run) is one thing, but trying to justify units and rules a Night Lord or any other chaos army should not have (land speeders, scouts, scout bikes) makes it hard to see it as anything other than the desire for the new and better rules.

If I was to meet someone who was playing his chaos legion after the old Codex Chaos or the new Codex Space Marines instead of their designated current Codex Chaos Space Marines, I would not refuse to play him, since I am a polite person, but I would not think very high of that person anyway.

 

I know that voicing such criticism in a forum thread comes across as antagonistic or even trolling, but if you only get responses from like minded players who might even have thought about such a move themself, you might get the idear that everything is just fine with that idear and no one could ever have a problem with it. I am hereby pointing out that that isn't the case.

 

And is it not pandering to other sources of power (be it a chaos deity, or a different army list) other than your own that is looked down upon by the Night Lords?

 

My first instinct was to reply with something like this, then i kinda stopped myself and recognized the fact that you can play a more themed night lords list and some of the other undivided legion lists with the marine codex. This is NOT to say i would ever do this, but the idea of the game is to have FUN and lets face it, i think about 90% of the chaos community do not find the current dex fun so im all for whatever it takes to keep the idea alive and let players enjoy a game with their friends.

 

I do however agree 100% with legatus when it comes to certain units...IE, land speeders and the like but i dont see an issue with an Iron Warriors guy running a list so he can have a serviceable dreadnaught and some other options that dont show the entire aspect of the IW in the chaos dex. Point is, let the man have fun and allow him to do what he wants.

 

I am being a little hipocriticle in this conversation though, because if this were a Word Bearer player, i probably would have laid into him with as much hate as i have for my ex wife, so that shows you where i stand on this whole issue :D Have fun with your list bud.

 

By the way, did anyone see the white scars character yet? Hows about land raider crusader w/3 thunderhammer terms and 4 duel lightning claw terms, and a chaplain OUTFLANKING your army. Yes thats right, a land raider outflanking your army baby, in the immortal words of DETHKLOK "Brutal"....:P

[the jeske]

I had some bad feelings about double lash /double demon weapon lords on steeds , but when I look at the sm characters [even the non named ones] they have tons of options . And its not just unusable stuff like our HQ can have . Relic blades , changes to troops composition etc and the special action like "pick one attack before rolling to hit . of it hits its str6 and instand death " are ok ... when the same guy doesnt change the troops compostition , have feel no pain at the same time .

But its ok , the sm codex is not overpowered or overbalanced , it just gives any chaos player how awesome their book could be , if it was made not as a space filler , but as a normal codex .

[Dammeron]

Since that idear seems to be generally well recieved, let me be the first one to tell you that I find that to be a pretty lame move. Another army has shinier new toys, so you use their rules instead. I am not sure if that is worse than insisting on using the old Codex Chaos, which is pretty lame as well. Trying to justify the units and rules a Night Lord army might have (elite assault squads, hit and run) is one thing, but trying to justify units and rules a Night Lord or any other chaos army should not have (land speeders, scouts, scout bikes) makes it hard to see it as anything other than the desire for the new and better rules.

If I was to meet someone who was playing his chaos legion after the old Codex Chaos or the new Codex Space Marines instead of their designated current Codex Chaos Space Marines, I would not refuse to play him, since I am a polite person, but I would not think very high of that person anyway.

 

I know that voicing such criticism in a forum thread comes across as antagonistic or even trolling, but if you only get responses from like minded players who might even have thought about such a move themself, you might get the idear that everything is just fine with that idear and no one could ever have a problem with it. I am hereby pointing out that that isn't the case.

 

And is it not pandering to other sources of power (be it a chaos deity, or a different army list) other than your own that is looked down upon by the Night Lords?

 

 

It's all a matter of motivation, IMO. If indeed you are opting to use the loyalist codex because you like the shiny new toys and special rules they get, then I would indeed have a prob lem with this. However, if you feel, as I most certainly do, that the current "designated" chaos space marine codex is an ill-conceived and poorly implemented product that fails spectacularly to represent the theme and background of your current force, then you have every right to look for options elsewhere. And it certainly seems from what I've read thus far that the new loyalist codex will allow for much more accurate representation of legions such as the Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion, which practically no longer even exist under the chaos codex.

[Legatus]

I've read thus far that the new loyalist codex will allow for much more accurate representation of legions such as the Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion, which practically no longer even exist under the chaos codex.

I very much disagree with that. Drop Pods, Scouts, Land Speeders and Whirlwinds are not suitable for any of the original chaos legions and cannot represent their forces any better than the Ratpors (NL) or Defilers (IW) from the current Codex Chaos do.

 

What would Iron Warriors gain? Techmarines, Ironclads and Whirlwinds. Buth they would lose Chaos Space Marines (now use loyalists with ATSKNF and no CCWs instead), Defilers and Obliterators. Chaos Marines and Havocs are simply better than Tactical Squads and Devastator squads. Defilers are better siege weapons than whirlwinds. Loyalists don't have Obliterators. Ironclads are nice, but you lose Defilers, and Chaos Dreadnoughts are simply less reliable. Chaos Terminators usually have a variety of deadly ranged and close combat weapons, but with Codex Space Marines they would be limited to storm bolters (which they should not have) and powerfists. Can you resist the temptation to use Assault Cannons and Missile Launchers, since Chaos terminators don't have those, and only use heavy flamers? Chaos Terminators with only Storm Bolters and Powerfists, with one having a heavy flamer?

 

Night Lords? Overpowered Assault squads (they just should not be allowed to assault after deep striking) and "hit and run". They too lose Chaos Marines with CCWs, cheap Raptors, that can be upgraded with Icons, and generic demons. And why would they have ATSKNF? Chaos Marine squads make for much better shock troops than tactical squads. There are three fast attack slots available to be filled with Raptors or Bikes. The elite choices can be filled with deep striking terminators or infiltrating veterans, something loyalists don't have. Then there are the demons, who make quite good shock troops too. In average armies, it really are the CCW equipped troop squads that make the difference.

 

Alpha Legion? Cultists don't wear carapace. Even with WS and BS 3, Scouts do not make suitable cultists. Instead, the Alpha Legion loses infiltrating veterans. Again, why would all their units have ATSKNF?

 

Basic Chaos Marines seem to be disregarded completely. Giving them boltgun and bp/ccw in the current codex is one of their biggest advantages, but appearently everyone would rather replace them with loyal ATSKNF tactical marines as long as they get the special toys.

Switching from Codex Chaos to Codex Space Marines would lose you as much suitable units and choices as you would gain. And then there are a ton of rules and choices that don't make sense in a chaos army at all, like ATSKNF, Scouts, Land Speeders. And Stormshields. Chaos forces never had stormshields. But I am sure someone will have a nice idear how to make them "fluffy" for his Iron Warriors. No plasma cannons either.

[Monkeychunks]

I don't think you truly see the potential here Legatus.

 

 

Iron Warriors- Siege specialists. Bringing down the walls, then storming them with the toughest troops you can muster.

 

Yes we lose Obliterators and Defilers, but Obliterators aren't the best for a siege anyway. Too big of a target and against a castle, all that would get used is a Lascannon. Defilers are no longer indirect fire, so they've lost alot of their siege nature too. Iron Warriors are notoriously shooty, so more weapons and the ability to keep firing once you get charged is much better than +1 attack. Havocs are FAR worse than Devastators, with less options, no splitting fire and no Signum. Ironclads are perfect for sieges. And Assault Terminators are pretty much perfect for getting stuck into a breach, while Vanguard can sweep defenders off the wall. Not to mention Thunderfires undermining the walls or Techmarines fortifying them on the defense.

 

Compared to 9 Obliterators OR 3 Vindicators, that is a much better representation of siege warfare. Especially since you can still have the 3 Vindicators.

 

 

 

Night Lords- Terror. Preying on the weak, striking from shadows before disappearing.

 

Drop Pod assaults are fairly terrifying and don't leave much to counter. Strike anywhere, anytime, with no reprisal- very scary prospect. Not to mention Dreadclaw pods are an actual model, so Chaos Pods do exist. Overwhelm part of the battle line with Drops while (even cheaper than Raptors) Assault Marines swoop down. ATSKNF because they prey on the weak and they present no real threat, or they're just plain insane. Plus, regrouping from dangerous areas to strike again at a softer target makes them harder to stop. You still have Deep Striking Terminators. And 'pull out, shoot, charge back' nicely covers the loss of CCWs, since you effectively get +2 attacks every other turn. Oh, and screaming Land Speeders.

 

 

Alpha Legion- Hydra. Strike from every angle and always have a backup plan.

 

Cultists don't wear carapace. But neither do they have a 5+ Invulnerable save or the ability to teleport. Not to mention Fearless and running around with a single knife. Combat Tactics, Combat Squads, Outflank and Drop Pods make for an extremely flexible army which can recover from almost anything, and strike anywhere. And why not have ATSKNF? Their plans rely on perfect composition, so pretend to run away then catch people in an ambush.

[Brother Nihm]

Defilers are no longer indirect fire

Actually, they are under 5th edition.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Legatus, what about all the renegade forces? The current Chaos Codex most certainly does not represent the origincal Chaos Legions, and so is often referred to as Codex: Renegades. But it doesn't really represent those either because of the technology. Do all the storm bolters, speeders, land raider varients, scouts, infantry carried plasma cannons, tech marines, and well learned and drilled battlefield tactics vanish as soon as they fall to chaos? As soon as they start praying to the dark gods do all the assault cannons mutate into heavy bolters and reapers? And then they suddenly find themselves encountering a cult marine warband left over from one of the traitor legions who can't wait to join them and contribute all their old technology? Does that make any sense at all?

 

This isn't a matter of wanting the best new shiny toys. Its a matter of having a codex that is an epic failure for anyone except maybe Black Legion, and even then there are tons of crippling problems (lolnoughts, possessed etc) and things that are just plain dumb (icons).

[Jarulek]

I very much disagree with that. Drop Pods, Scouts, Land Speeders and Whirlwinds are not suitable for any of the original chaos legions and cannot represent their forces any better than the Ratpors (NL) or Defilers (IW) from the current Codex Chaos do.

 

Dreadclaw Drop Pods? How are they supposed to make planetfall without? I believe they even use Thunderhawks.

 

I agree with the rest of the point you made though.

[Rain]

What would Iron Warriors gain? Techmarines, Ironclads and Whirlwinds. Buth they would lose Chaos Space Marines (now use loyalists with ATSKNF and no CCWs instead), Defilers and Obliterators. Chaos Marines and Havocs are simply better than Tactical Squads and Devastator squads. Defilers are better siege weapons than whirlwinds. Loyalists don't have Obliterators. Ironclads are nice, but you lose Defilers, and Chaos Dreadnoughts are simply less reliable. Chaos Terminators usually have a variety of deadly ranged and close combat weapons, but with Codex Space Marines they would be limited to storm bolters (which they should not have) and powerfists. Can you resist the temptation to use Assault Cannons and Missile Launchers, since Chaos terminators don't have those, and only use heavy flamers? Chaos Terminators with only Storm Bolters and Powerfists, with one having a heavy flamer?

 

Ok first of all, according to the IW IA, the IW regularly loot Imperial equipment and have an "extensive siege train" of various stolen and reverse engineered vehicles and weapons, so we aren't a bunch of backward hicks still using 10,000 year old gear, sure we have some of that, but we also steal your toys after we make sure you won't be needing them anymore. Second of all, we also gain upgraded ammunition for our veterans, and I would argue that Chaos marines are not better than loyalists as ATSKNF is an extremely powerful rule that in my opinion is actually better than fearless, and Devs are obviously better than Havocs, I don't even know where to start.

 

As for the terminator arguement, what kind of bolters they have is completely nitpicking as technically IW should have basilisks and servo arms yet somehow we no longer do, and we sure as heck should not have plague marines or lash of submission and yet it's fairly hard to make a good list without them (though I do my best on that end). See the point is that the Chaos dex is fine and dandy as long as you use all of its options, unfortunately about half of those make less sense for IW than assault cannons since AC can be looted from dead loyalists, but the destroyer plague, not so much. Not that I even would use AC or Speeders or anything like that, I just really want a dreadnought with a siege drill (hell, one of the characters in Dead Sky, Black Sun was an IW dread with a siege drill, why can't we field this?) as well as upgradeable ammunition.

 

But really all of this boils down to the fact remains that Iron Warriors are known for 2 things; shooting and technology and the chaos codex gives us assault troops and demons, while the loyalist codex can give us siege dreads, long range guns (thunderfire), whirlwinds (which can be modeled as looted WW's or as a generic chaos artillery piece), upgraded ammo on vets, and techmarines with servo harnesses. Still, I do agree that playing the loyalist codex does seem like a bit of a copout which is why I may well not do it.

[Vodunius]

Drop Pods, Scouts, Land Speeders and Whirlwinds are not suitable for any of the original chaos legions

 

The Vindicator was originally stated to have been developed during the Horus Heresy, it was later retconned into being post-heresy, and then retconned into being very much pre-heresy. I'm not aware of any information ever being given to state that Whirlwinds are post-heresy, whilst Space Marine 1st edition depicted them in standard use by both sides during it.

[Legatus]

Yes we lose Obliterators and Defilers, but Obliterators aren't the best for a siege anyway. Too big of a target and against a castle, all that would get used is a Lascannon. Defilers are no longer indirect fire, so they've lost alot of their siege nature too. Iron Warriors are notoriously shooty, so more weapons and the ability to keep firing once you get charged is much better than +1 attack. Havocs are FAR worse than Devastators, with less options, no splitting fire and no Signum. Ironclads are perfect for sieges. And Assault Terminators are pretty much perfect for getting stuck into a breach, while Vanguard can sweep defenders off the wall. Not to mention Thunderfires undermining the walls or Techmarines fortifying them on the defense.

Indirect fire is nice, but direct fire ordnance is quite suitable in taking down fortifications as well. The Vindicator is the prime example. And Defilers can also crawl up to any fortifications and tear them apart close and personal. On the one hand you have a newly developed tank for harrassing infantry that chaos forces traditionally had no access to (Whirlwind) and on the other hand you have a daemic machine with massive claws and a battle cannon (Defiler). Which one is more Iron Warriory?

Devastators can get Plasma Cannons and Multi Meltas, but then again Havocs should not be allowed to get those anyway. I cannot agree on the notion that any weapon or unit chaos forces traditionally were never able to get would in any way make for a fluffier Iron Warrior army. Havocs get close combat weapons and can get special weapons instead of heavy weapons as well, that hands down beats a single BS5 weapon as far as unit utility goes.

Iron Clads would be pretty neat, I give you that. But the 3 basic attacks and possibly frenzy of a chaos dreadnaught can achieve probably just as much destruction.

Assault Terminators? Chaos got the Claws, but they never were allowed hammers or storm shields, so that again makes no fluffier Iron Warrior force. With the Chaos Codex you could use Tzeentch Terminators as "counts as" terminator squads with extra defensive plates bolted on or something like that. Perhaps Terminators with bionics.

 

Drop Pod assaults are fairly terrifying and don't leave much to counter. Strike anywhere, anytime, with no reprisal- very scary prospect. Not to mention Dreadclaw pods are an actual model, so Chaos Pods do exist. Overwhelm part of the battle line with Drops while (even cheaper than Raptors) Assault Marines swoop down. ATSKNF because they prey on the weak and they present no real threat, or they're just plain insane. Plus, regrouping from dangerous areas to strike again at a softer target makes them harder to stop. You still have Deep Striking Terminators. And 'pull out, shoot, charge back' nicely covers the loss of CCWs, since you effectively get +2 attacks every other turn. Oh, and screaming Land Speeders.

Oh, I have seen the dreadclaw on the Forgeworld website. But since I never played a lot of epic or kept track of all the Forgeworld developements, my idear of how a chaos marine army looks and operates comes from the different Chaos Codices since 2nd Edition. Thus, dreadclaws do not really immediately come to my mind when I am thinking of chaos legion modus operandi.

You cannot really justify ATSKNF. Sure, you can allways come up with something why an army might have this or that thing. That does not make it fluffy, and usually is just a lame attempt to justify rules or units that army would normally not have. Even in 2nd Edition loyal Marines had a special morale rule which chaos marines did not have. Chaos Marines are either so fanatical that they ignore morale issues alltogether, or they will fall back if they suffer to heavy losses. Loyal Marines will stand fast against odds where chaos marines would rather retreat. Especially Night Lords are not the most courageous fighters. As cool as their background with terror tactics is, they pick on the weak and try to avoid fights against tougher opponents, if only because there would be not as much fun in fighting a capable army as in massacring civillians for Night Lords.

 

Legatus, what about all the renegade forces? The current Chaos Codex most certainly does not represent the origincal Chaos Legions, and so is often referred to as Codex: Renegades. But it doesn't really represent those either because of the technology. Do all the storm bolters, speeders, land raider varients, scouts, infantry carried plasma cannons, tech marines, and well learned and drilled battlefield tactics vanish as soon as they fall to chaos? As soon as they start praying to the dark gods do all the assault cannons mutate into heavy bolters and reapers? And then they suddenly find themselves encountering a cult marine warband left over from one of the traitor legions who can't wait to join them and contribute all their old technology? Does that make any sense at all?

I would probably put that down to limited resources. Without proper ties to the forgeworlds and mechanicus to get fresh ammunition and repairs for their advanced vehicles, a renegade chapter will soon lose some of their vehicles and weapons. But it is up to GW to properly distinguish between the original legions and recently defected chapters.

 

Ok first of all, according to the IW IA, the IW regularly loot Imperial equipment and have an "extensive siege train" of various stolen and reverse engineered vehicles and weapons, so we aren't a bunch of backward hicks still using 10,000 year old gear, sure we have some of that, but we also steal your toys after we make sure you won't be needing them anymore. Second of all, we also gain upgraded ammunition for our veterans, and I would argue that Chaos marines are not better than loyalists as ATSKNF is an extremely powerful rule that in my opinion is actually better than fearless, and Devs are obviously better than Havocs, I don't even know where to start.

ATSKNF is great, but Chaos units should not have it. Havocs pwn Devs in terms of unit utility. Havocs can shoot, havocs can advance, havocs can fight. Devs can shoot. Devastators have plasma cannons, but I am looking back at 10 years of chaos codices when I am trying to decide what would be fluffy for chaos forces, and based on that, plasma cannons wouldn't.

 

As for the terminator arguement, what kind of bolters they have is completely nitpicking as technically IW should have basilisks and servo arms yet somehow we no longer do, and we sure as heck should not have plague marines or lash of submission and yet it's fairly hard to make a good list without them (though I do my best on that end). See the point is that the Chaos dex is fine and dandy as long as you use all of its options

I disagree completely. Chaos Marines, Havocs and Raptors are very strong and capable units. I could go on explaining how well purely undivided works for me, if it wasn't such a lame argument to make. (No one cares how well that one guy at a forum claims a unit or army is performing... :rolleyes: ) The cult units are all really neat, but somehow basic marine squads with boltguns as well as close combat armament seem to be gravely underappreciated.

But I regularly use loyal armies of mainly tactical squads, devastator squads and assault squads as well, without a lot of other fancy choices, so perhaps the strengths of these basic units is more what I am focusing on.

 

But really all of this boils down to the fact remains that Iron Warriors are known for 2 things; shooting and technology and the chaos codex gives us assault troops and demons, while the loyalist codex can give us siege dreads, long range guns (thunderfire), whirlwinds (which can be modeled as looted WW's or as a generic chaos artillery piece), upgraded ammo on vets, and techmarines with servo harnesses.

To be fair, GW did for Chaos Marinex what they did with Eldar and Orks. They removed all the specialised armies and tried to make them all playable by using the general list. No more "Alaitoc", but all Eldar can get Pathfinders now. No more "Saim-Hann", but Jetbikes are troops now. No more "Biel-Tan", but Dire Avengers kick ass now, and you can still fill almost all choices with aspect warriors. No more "Kult of Speed", but every mob can get a transport, and bikes can be taken as troops. It is the same for Chaos. No more "Iron Warriors", but Vindicators are available, dreadnoughts are elite now, and there is no limit on obliterator cults. No more "Night Lords", but no limit on Raptors.

The Chaos army list got generalised, just as the Eldar list and the ork list have been. And admittedly some of the armies did lose some of their options, especially the Iron Warriors. But that still would not explain why Iron Warriors should have Whirlwinds, Thunderfire cannons, special mmunition or servo harnesses. Iron Warrior chaos marines are still Iron Warrior chaos marines. Even if their "heavy" stuff is limited to Havocs, Obliterators, Dreadnoughts, Vindicators and Defilers. In the end all the heavy vehicles are merely the support of an "Iron Warrior Chaos Marines army". You would change the whole "chaos army" aspect to get a couple of extra toys, some of which a chaos army should not really have.

[Rain]

As a side note, the new chaos codex has pictures of a "chaos-ey" manned plasma cannon and multi-melta along with sketches of the other (legal) weapons chaos marines can use, I always found this really odd. As for dreads being elites, yeah they are elites and so what? They aren't very good, so who cares if you can take 3 along with tanks, why would you want to?

 

So havocs can "advance" but devs can't? I really don't understand this argument unless I am missing some rule that allows havocs to move and shoot heavy weapons or disallows devs to move at all. As for ATSKNF not making sense, A.) The coin was termed by a Konrad Curze a chaos primarch and B.) It does a similar thing to Mark of Chaos Glory anyway, so why does that make sense and yet ATSKNF does not?

 

Oh and if I got all of the interesting things Eldar and Orks had I wouldn't complain, unfortunately Chaos got nothing new to make up for all that we lost, IW already had oblits, defilers, etc all that happened was that we lost basilisks and servo arms (not very points efficient but I would use them for theme) and got it replaced with options that make no fluff sense such as PM's, which again already existed and could be taken if I wanted to play generic Chaos Undivided.