Using the Loyalist codex to represent Night Lords

[Legatus]

As for dreads being elites, yeah they are elites and so what? They aren't very good, so who cares if you can take 3 along with tanks, why would you want to?

For style, or fluff?

 

So havocs can "advance" but devs can't? I really don't understand this argument unless I am missing some rule that allows havocs to move and shoot heavy weapons or disallows devs to move at all.

That was aimed at the special weapon options of the havocs. Like four meltaguns or four flamethrowers.

 

As for ATSKNF not making sense, A.) The coin was termed by a Konrad Curze a chaos primarch and B.) It does a similar thing to Mark of Chaos Glory anyway, so why does that make sense and yet ATSKNF does not?

In 2nd Edition loyal marines had special break test rules, since 3rd Edition it has been ATSKNF, to represent their devotion and bravery. A chaos icon with LD 10 means that chaos squads will hardly ever fall back, while ATSKNF does not help at all against falling back initially after a failed test. But the last few surviving members of a marine unit might still keep on fighting, thanks to ATSKNF, while the last few members of a chaos unit will retreat once they have started to fall back.

 

Oh and if I got all of the interesting things Eldar and Orks had I wouldn't complain, unfortunately Chaos got nothing new to make up for all that we lost

If you wanted to play a proper craftworld or clan you would have to limit yourself. You could not use all the interesting things. It is the same for chaos. If you don't limit yourself you have access to cult units as well, and can equip almost every squad with marks. Icons of Tzeentch to represent a squad with lots of bionics for example.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Ah, so if we want to be fluffy we have to neuter/limit our army. But loyalists don't. They just pick a different special character, or one of the tons of different options since their codex was designed to let them be fluffy and use their toys at the same time. It always comes down to loyalists getting to have their cake and eat it too because they are the most played or whatever, and chaos just has to go deal. I think i speak for a lot of people when i say i play Chaos and not loyalists for the fluff, and not for the special rules. I picked Chaos before i ever knew that our vanilla marines got uber grit and loyalists didn't, and before i ever knew what lash of submission or obliterators were. I am not pleased with being stuck with sub par rules that limit the fluff just because it says Chaos Space Marines on the front of one codex and Space Marines on the front of the other.

 

And just so i'm not misrepresented, i don't powergame. There are no lash's or oblits in my lists, and rarely plague marines. I even use things like dreadnoughts. And i win a lot more games than i lose. So i wouldn't use the loyalist codex because its a better army, i'd use it because the rules better reflect the fluff of the army i want to be playing.

[Arschbombe]

I don't see the distinction between a guy deliberately not using items/units from Codex:Renegades in order to better portray his legion and a guy deliberately not using items/units from Codex:Space Marines in order to better represent his legion. It's all a matter of self discipline.

 

With a respectful nod to Smurfalypse, I was considering using the new SM codex to represent Word Bearers because based on what I have heard I might be able get a better representation with it. I wouldn't be doing it to get tricked out land raiders, speeders, whirlwinds, thunderfire cannons, assault cannons, and techmarines. I'd avoid those just like I avoid plague marines, thousand sons and khorne berzerkers. It certainly won't be perfect, but might be a little better - to me.

 

Ultimately, like Monkeychunk says, it comes down to a paint scheme. As long as you pick a codex and build a list according to that codex you can call your force anything you want and paint it anyway you want.

[Lord_Caerolion]

You seem to not truly understand the Night Lords, Legatus. The first I ever heard of the Night Lords being obsessed with Fast Attack units was the 3.5 rules. Other than that, every other source I've read gives no mention of a love of Raptors and bikes, so no, cheap Raptors in the Chaos Codex doesn't do it for me for representing Night Lords. You know what does represent an army that loves the use of overwhelming force?

Units of drop-pods raining down from the skies, things that were very much in existence in the Pre-Heresy era. Just check the Horus Heresy series. Orbital bombardments smashing down onto enemy troops, 'safe' in their bunkers, courtesy of a Marine Commander. A rule which has its name from a quote from Konrad Curze, the Night Lords primarch, ATSKNF, "Space Marines know no fear, for we are fear incarnate!." Also, why should the Night Lords fear their prey? I think retreating just beyond harms reach, just to blow them apart again, is very fitting.

 

Yes, if I took the Marine codex so I could get access to Land Speeders and such, well, we had anti-grav technology during the Crusades. Surely there's still a few remaining, with all the Dark Mechanicus the owning Lord can muster looking after it? As for scouts, you can't tell me that the Night Lords, a Legion that scorns faith in all its forms, would use religious cultists to replenish its numbers? I find it much more fitting that they would take traitor Guard, and you know, actually get them to prove their worth in combat? That Night Lords wouldn't make use of Sniper Rifles?

 

However, the things I can guarantee I would never use, and would look down on any Legionnaire using: Land Raider Crusader, Assault Cannon, more than say two Multi-meltas or Plasma Cannon (if that), Land Raider Redeemer, and obviously anybody using Inquisitorial allies I'll have to kill, Scout Bikers are a 'no' too, really, same with Attack Bikes.

Other than that, the Marine codex gives a good feel for the Night Lords, a Legion who don't use Chaos, and while having broken into smaller warbands than the Legion Companies, I can still imagine fighting in a Pre-Heresy way.

[Lady_Canoness]

hear what you guys are saying in this thread, and I do agree that on an 'army' level you are correct that the SM codex offers a better deal. However, when it comes to individual units I am still gonna have to side with the CSM dex. Daemon Princes, Oblits, Defilers, and Greater Daemons (not to mention the cults) have nothing that can do them justice in the SM dex, and IMO that is a lot of Chaosy stuff to trim off just so your army has a smoother feel to it.

 

I think that Chaos Marines still have the most powerful units in the game, and personally I would not want to trade those in for shiny new special rules.

 

Plus, Chaos Terminators are just soooooo much better than loyalist Terminatos B)

 

P.S. The Eldar and Ork Codices can still make Craftworld/Clan lists. The Eldar list was made so that it was possible to take all the aspects at once (Biel-Tan), Jetbikes as troops (Siam-Hann), a really big Seer Council, though no Black Guardians (Ulthwé), Rangers and Pathfinders (Alaitoc), and Wraithguard units as both troops and elite (Iyanden). Now, if the Chaos Marines got something like that... well, that would be grand!

[Jarulek]

You seem to not truly understand the Night Lords, Legatus. The first I ever heard of the Night Lords being obsessed with Fast Attack units was the 3.5 rules. Other than that, every other source I've read gives no mention of a love of Raptors and bikes, so no, cheap Raptors in the Chaos Codex doesn't do it for me for representing Night Lords. You know what does represent an army that loves the use of overwhelming force?

Units of drop-pods raining down from the skies, things that were very much in existence in the Pre-Heresy era. Just check the Horus Heresy series. Orbital bombardments smashing down onto enemy troops, 'safe' in their bunkers, courtesy of a Marine Commander. A rule which has its name from a quote from Konrad Curze, the Night Lords primarch, ATSKNF, "Space Marines know no fear, for we are fear incarnate!." Also, why should the Night Lords fear their prey? I think retreating just beyond harms reach, just to blow them apart again, is very fitting.

 

Have to disagree with you there. The word Raptor was originaly used for the Night Lords Assault Squads. Up until the 3.5 Codex Raptors had Warp Amps and such to strike fear into their enemies, which were mostly small pocket of terrified troops. So they don't use overwelming force but rather have "a thousand victories instead of one major assault". They prey on the weakest and work their way up from there.

 

But you are right that -as someone else said on this board- the NL aren't just the traitor counterpart of the White Scars/Raven Guard.

[Lord_Caerolion]

That was me that said that. And I recommend you read the Night Lords Index Astartes. The Night Lords prefer to launch one overwhelming assault, utterly crushing their opponent in full view. Still, I love your faulty logic there: Night Lords Raptors had things to terrify troops, therefore they prefer a "death by a thousand cuts" approach. Where's the logic there?

 

And Lady_Canoness, I don't use Daemon Princes, Obliterators, Defilers or Daemons in my Night Lord army, which is what this thread is about, the Loyalist Codex for Night Lords. So yeah, those units I don't use don't have a comparison unit in the Loyalist codex. Whatever shall I do? I know! The same thing I do now, don't take them!

[apparition]

If you wanted to play a proper craftworld or clan you would have to limit yourself. You could not use all the interesting things. It is the same for chaos. If you don't limit yourself you have access to cult units as well, and can equip almost every squad with marks. Icons of Tzeentch to represent a squad with lots of bionics for example.

 

I think the logic of your argument falls down here Legatus. You say that we can represent things like bionics with a mark of Tzeentch so you agree to the principle of 'counts as'. So why cant we use our chaos models to 'count as' choices from the new space marine codex especially when the choices fit the fluff far more accurately than using chaos marks and cult troops to represent things in the undivided legions? Regardless of your objections the army will still be legal and one you could potentially face if painted up in standard marine colours and it will allow for more fluffy and varied armies than used at present.

[Jarulek]

That was me that said that. And I recommend you read the Night Lords Index Astartes. The Night Lords prefer to launch one overwhelming assault, utterly crushing their opponent in full view. Still, I love your faulty logic there: Night Lords Raptors had things to terrify troops, therefore they prefer a "death by a thousand cuts" approach. Where's the logic there?

 

No faulty logic. It just sounds like you are judging NL players who use raptor squads, a unit their own legion invented (which was my main point).

[Lord_Caerolion]

I can imagine the response now... "But... power-gaming Chaos... Codex abusers!"

From what I can gather, people use the logic that counts-as is only fine if its something from your own codex that you're using the rules for. Of course, thats utter crud, as counts-as is supposed to promote creativity. I can't see where using a very, very similar armies rules in place of anothers is againstthe rules. I can understand this "you're abusing Counts As!" if we were, say... using the Eldar codex, or the Tau codex. However, we're using the rules for one sort of Marines for our different sort of Marines. No power-gaming, just using the codex that most accurately represents how our army is described as operating, ie not like other Chaos, and having some more fun in the process. Where's the harm in that?

 

And Jarulek, I'm not judging Night Lord players who take Raptors (I use a small squad, who am I to complain about Raptors?), I'm judging those players who think our Legion is basically nothing but Raptors. Yes, we used them, yes we pioneered them. That doesn't make us obsesssed, yet whenever I see a "How do I make a Night Lords army?" topic, I count the posts until some 'smart' Chaos player comes along and says "3 big Raptor squads, and a Lord with Wings and Lightning Claws." Generally, it doesn't take long at all. Any time I say I can't make a proper Night Lords list with this codex, I'm just told to quit whining cause Raptors are cheaper, and aren't 0-1. We're fast becoming the Traitor Raven Guard of Chaos, an idea I'm very, very keen on removing. We have a totally different modus operandii to any other Legion, and I just want people to remember/learn that. To know that yes, we do use tanks, we do use heavy weapons, we do use Terminators, and we definitely use super-heavies.

 

I want to reinforce the idea that if the Horus Heresy novels are to be believed, the Primarchs were made to represent different sorts of war, or something like that. The Zodiac was involved, but it was something like Horus was the "cut off the head". The Night Lords were the one that went the step above that. The sort of war where you don't want anything left standing except your own guys. No longer "kill the head, and the body will die", this is "nuke the head, and the body will die. So will the guys next to said body, all their buildings, and anything else that could be a threat." Part of the terror of facing the Night Lords during the Crusade was that you knew, save for an utter miracle, such as all the marines dropping dead, you'll be dead by next week max, if even that. These are the guys that leave orbital bombardments as 'calling-cards', and as announcements as well.

[Smurfalypse]

I don't see the distinction between a guy deliberately not using items/units from Codex:Renegades in order to better portray his legion and a guy deliberately not using items/units from Codex:Space Marines in order to better represent his legion. It's all a matter of self discipline.

 

With a respectful nod to Smurfalypse, I was considering using the new SM codex to represent Word Bearers because based on what I have heard I might be able get a better representation with it. I wouldn't be doing it to get tricked out land raiders, speeders, whirlwinds, thunderfire cannons, assault cannons, and techmarines. I'd avoid those just like I avoid plague marines, thousand sons and khorne berzerkers. It certainly won't be perfect, but might be a little better - to me.

 

Ultimately, like Monkeychunk says, it comes down to a paint scheme. As long as you pick a codex and build a list according to that codex you can call your force anything you want and paint it anyway you want.

 

Word Bearers are kinda an odd legion comparitively to all the other chaos legions. We tend to try and bend the will of all things daemonic to our will and use them as a tool, much like they use a bolter or a missile launcher. Unfortunately i just dont think its possible at all to pull that "feel" from the space marine codex. I 100% feel your pain, trust me on that. Generic daemons are good in win column but they are just very dry and bland, same goes for most of the units the word bearers would normally select, possessed and dreads mostly. I do completely see the want to play something a a little more "fun" though and wouldnt jump on someone to hard, after all, we have one of the top three armies (tourny wise) in the game itself, so anyone wanting to run a different army probably wouldnt be doing it from the powergamer standpoint and more from the fluff standpoint. At least, thats me giving people the benifit of the doubt.

 

I got to play against the marine dex sunday (two games) and i have to say that i dont think they are overlly powerful, but DEFINITELY fun. I even looked at the art in the book then sat down and wrote up a list after a certain chapter caught my eye, The White Consule's. As soon as i read that the first thing that popped in my head were the Beurocrats from Futurama, ie..Hermese Conrad. I must admit, i had a BLAST playing them as i spouted out random codes, polices, and i asked for their I-9 forms, and form 456.98.2, it was very humerous and fun. The point of this whole thing is, in that case i easilly built an army that was fluffy with what i thought the fluff was (though i made it up) and i wasnt restricted by what i took within the the whole of the dex. I took things that enhanced the feel of a beurocrat (tech as my HQ, thunderfire cannon, pile of walking drone marines who have to fill out the proper paperwork before they are allowed to engage the enemy properly :rolleyes:)

 

The point to this whole thing is that all the fluff i could ever want to make up on the fly was easilly and fully represented in that codex. It was really a nice feeling, the fact that 90% of the chaos players feel they dont get the full representation of their armies is evidence enough that most dont care about the actual power of the model but more the fun factor and customization. Again, the CSM codex is VERY VERY strong when it comes to winning games, no one can really doubt that or argue that, this whole thing boils down to one simple, obvious, little problem...

 

The CSM codex is very dull...If it wasnt so dull then this topic wouldnt be an issue, nor would it have probably been brought up. I would never run my beloved Word Bearers from another codex as i have to much hatred for everyone else, but the fact that they are probably a lot more fun to play definitely makes me a little more understanding toward someone wanting to do it. This being said, if someone comes up saying they are running Night Lords and then comes out and throws down his thunderfire cannon, LR redeemer, and a pile of land speeders, i would stomp you in game, the entire time mocking your choices untill your own mother would disown you. This isnt everyone, this is just my take on the whole thing.

 

Good luck everyone and i hope everyone understands that it is all about having fun and someones idea of fun isnt always your own idea of fun. :P

[Legatus]

Ah, so if we want to be fluffy we have to neuter/limit our army. But loyalists don't. They just pick a different special character, or one of the tons of different options since their codex was designed to let them be fluffy and use their toys at the same time.

If Space Marines want to be fluffy they can't take everything either. Salamanders with bikes as troops or Crimson Fists with heaps of terminators would probably not be all that fluffy. Or Ultramarines with Tyrannic War Veterans. (thank god they are gone)

 

You seem to not truly understand the Night Lords, Legatus. The first I ever heard of the Night Lords being obsessed with Fast Attack units was the 3.5 rules.

In 2nd Edition they weren't. But in 2nd Edition Raptors did not exist at all, so the only "fast" elements of a chaos army were the bikes. In "Realms of Chaos - Slaves to Darkness" the Night Lords Legion was dedicated to Khorne, so perhaps that is why with the 3.5 Codex Chaos when Raptors were introduced, they were attached mainly to the Night Lords. There were no Legion specific rules in 2nd or early 3rd Edition, so mostly people get their idear of what makes a Legion army from the Index Astartes articles or the 3.5 Codex Chaos, and "multiple raptors" was one of their traits. And generally, fast attack choices make for more decicive strikes than getting heavy support choices into position and pounding away at teh enemy.

 

Orbital bombardments smashing down onto enemy troops, 'safe' in their bunkers, courtesy of a Marine Commander.

Orbital bombardment is not very original, and hardly especially terrifying. One bit in the Index Astartes that was particularly interesting was how the Night Lords like to slaughter their enemies (victims) up close (and then broadcast that accross the whole planet). There is nothing fluffy for Night Lords about orbital strikes. Drop Pods, maybe, but I am still looking back at all previous Chaos army lists with no drop pod options whatsoever, as opposed to loyalists, who had them since the beginning of 3rd Edition.

 

A rule which has its name from a quote from Konrad Curze, the Night Lords primarch, ATSKNF, "Space Marines know no fear, for we are fear incarnate!." Also, why should the Night Lords fear their prey?

Because the Night Lords are not fighting for a greater cause. If their enemies prove to be too resistant and kill almost a full squad, the surviving Night Lords would fall back and not bother fighting till the bitter end. Why would they want to? They are not fighting for anything, they don't care for honour. They don't have a driving motivation to keep on fighting, like loyal Marines have.

 

You are quite off on the source for the rules name though:

 

They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear."

~The Emperor of Mankind, on the Creation of the Space Marines

 

Yes, if I took the Marine codex so I could get access to Land Speeders and such, well, we had anti-grav technology during the Crusades. Surely there's still a few remaining, with all the Dark Mechanicus the owning Lord can muster looking after it?

Not enought for GW to put them in any Chaos Codex since 2nd Edition appearently. I find it really difficult to accept anything that was not available to Chaos ever since 2nd Edition as being fluffy for them.

 

As for scouts, you can't tell me that the Night Lords, a Legion that scorns faith in all its forms, would use religious cultists to replenish its numbers? I find it much more fitting that they would take traitor Guard, and you know, actually get them to prove their worth in combat?

I am not entirely sure how Chaos Legions create new Marines. That never was as well documented as it was for loyalists. Loyalists cannot make anyone a Space Marine that has exceeded the age of 14, since the person has to "grow" to be a Space Marine. So I don't really know what to think of Chaos Legion using fully experienced guardsmen (or cultists) as recruits.

 

That Night Lords wouldn't make use of Sniper Rifles?

No, they wouldn't. Night Lords (and really all Marines, traitors as well as loyalists) are well aware of the effect the sight of giant power armoured super warriors disemboweling their foes in close cobat has on enemy morale.

 

Other than that, the Marine codex gives a good feel for the Night Lords, a Legion who don't use Chaos

They despise the pandering of the other legions, but since when did the Night Lords not use Chaos? They are Chaos Marines through and through.

[Lord_Caerolion]

They didn't use Chaos ever since the Index Astartes said the Night Lords have nothing but scorn for religion of any kind, hating both the Imperial Creed and the Chaos Gods. I'm not sure of the exact quote, but its something along those lines.

 

As for orbital bombardments not being "original", you seem very stuck on the idea of "for Marines to be scary, they have to be tearing stuff apart with their bare hands." I for one would be absolutly terrified if I saw the army, the one thing that could possibly save me, smashed apart by a blinding spear of light falling from the sky! Can you imagine the propaganda the Night Lords could spin on that with an Imperial populace? "The spear of light was the Emperors Judgement of your world. You have been found wanting. We are here to fix that." Another part of the Index Astartes article that was 'quite interesting' was the willingness of the Night Lords to use orbital strikes on numerous occasions. During the Crusade, they nuked a planet because it had a single cult dedicated to a nature-deity. When the Night Lords attack worlds, they use orbital strikes to create a nuclear winter, and I think also to cut off power. Currently my Index Astartes is very, very far away from me.

As for sniper rifles, how scared would you be if you were running from the giants with glowing eyes that just smashed your city, and when you're hiding in the forest, or whereever, and finally think you're safe, the person next to you's head explodes, a sniper round to the head. Sniper shots come from all directions, and just when you think you've found a safe path out of the lines of fire, you run right into the Night Lords heading towards the civilians the scouts had pinned down.

 

And no, I'm not saying use heavy weapons to pound them away, but as again, think of the psychological consequences of seeing the Baneblade rumbling down the street towards you. Think of the Guardsmen "Oh, we're safe in the bunker"... just before a Vindicator shell smashes through the wall, killing all inside, the nearby survivors having clearly seen that nothing can give them protection, that they are safe nowhere.

 

Lastly, the thing about the Loyalist codex is that yes, the Chapters have to limit their units. True, Salamanders can't fluffily take bikes as Troops, as you said. However, they get their master-crafted Thunder Hammers, and twin-linked flamers. Crimson Fists may have to (fluffily) take a smaller army, but Sternguard Veterans are Scoring Units. If I take my Night Lords according to the fluff, I have nothing special to make up for this utter neutering of the list. I lose half the options, including everything that differs the Chaos codex from the Loyalist one, other than mere petty, minor details. You're ignoring the fact there that the Loyalists get bonuses that (hopefully at least) encourage them to play fluffy lists. Of course, if I see general Character Spam in places where they have no right to be, I'm gonna be :rolleyes: . There's nothing in the codex to encourage Chaos players to have a fluffy army. In fact, the army works better when played as Generic Chaos Warband X. Under the old rules, they (attempted at least) to balance a loss of choice with a bonus to compensate. Granted, they didn't do a good job there, but Night Lords were played as Night Lords, without this "Yeah, these are my Night Lords. The Lord worships Slaanesh, and is a Daemon Prince who can scare people where he wants them to go. And this is his twin, another Slaaneshi Prince, who can do the same."

[Smurfalypse]

Ah, so if we want to be fluffy we have to neuter/limit our army. But loyalists don't. They just pick a different special character, or one of the tons of different options since their codex was designed to let them be fluffy and use their toys at the same time.

If Space Marines want to be fluffy they can't take everything either. Salamanders with bikes as troops or Crimson Fists with heaps of terminators would probably not be all that fluffy. Or Ultramarines with Tyrannic War Veterans. (thank god they are gone)

 

Well thats not exactly correct. Yes it would be unfluffy as troops but ALL marine chapters utilize practically everything. Chaos doesnt work the same way, Word Bearers would NEVER follow a leader who worshipped an individual god or have units for long that were dedicated to a specific god. This severly limits our choices across the board. Wereas in your example it wouldnt be odd for salamanders to have a unit of bikes. I do see where you are headed with this and i agree with you somewhat, but in this case we are comparing apples to oranges because chaos doenst work the same way mentally as space marines, they utilize everything, chaos hates to much and very much sticks to what they know, or at least this is how its been since second ed. Even though back then we were able to take 25% of our army list out of the guard codex so :rolleyes:

 

You seem to not truly understand the Night Lords, Legatus. The first I ever heard of the Night Lords being obsessed with Fast Attack units was the 3.5 rules.

In 2nd Edition they weren't. But in 2nd Edition Raptors did not exist at all, so the only "fast" elements of a chaos army were the bikes. In "Realms of Chaos - Slaves to Darkness" the Night Lords Legion was dedicated to Khorne, so perhaps that is why with the 3.5 Codex Chaos when Raptors were introduced, they were attached mainly to the Night Lords. There were no Legion specific rules in 2nd or early 3rd Edition, so mostly people get their idear of what makes a Legion army from the Index Astartes articles or the 3.5 Codex Chaos, and "multiple raptors" was one of their traits. And generally, fast attack choices make for more decicive strikes than getting heavy support choices into position and pounding away at teh enemy.

 

 

I agree with you 100% here. Alot of the fluff that people worship now as gospal hasnt been around very long, 3.0 and sooner to be exact. Word Bearers had next to no fluff other than the early heresy stuff and the fact that they utilized large numbers of daemons, that was basically it, so alot of these things people swear by is very new. However, GW did introduce it as fluff within the codex and people obviously loved that aspect of it, then it was taken away from us as a whole. Thats like giving me free heroine then making me go cold turkey after i get hooked :P

 

Orbital bombardments smashing down onto enemy troops, 'safe' in their bunkers, courtesy of a Marine Commander

 

Orbital bombardment is not very original, and hardly especially terrifying. One bit in the Index Astartes that was particularly interesting was how the Night Lords like to slaughter their enemies (victims) up close (and then broadcast that accross the whole planet). There is nothing fluffy for Night Lords about orbital strikes. Drop Pods, maybe, but I am still looking back at all previous Chaos army lists with no drop pod options whatsoever, as opposed to loyalists, who had them since the beginning of 3rd Edition.

 

 

Agreed, the orbital bombardment is definitely not a mainline tactic that they would probably use. However, there is a fluff story about the night lords bombing a planent within a system and broadcasting it to all the other planets in the system. Then they blockaded the other planets and after a week or so, just left and didnt touch the other planets. Basically they just wanted to see the other planets squirm, so when used creatively it might be used. Though i think a captain on a bike is much more likely for the overall aspect of things. This is one thing i would probably mock a night lords player for using, bombardment is definitely not mainstream for them, Iron Warriors however i would see being all over this sorta thing.

 

A rule which has its name from a quote from Konrad Curze, the Night Lords primarch, ATSKNF, "Space Marines know no fear, for we are fear incarnate!." Also, why should the Night Lords fear their prey?

Because the Night Lords are not fighting for a greater cause. If their enemies prove to be too resistant and kill almost a full squad, the surviving Night Lords would fall back and not bother fighting till the bitter end. Why would they want to? They are not fighting for anything, they don't care for honour. They don't have a driving motivation to keep on fighting, like loyal Marines have.

 

You are quite off on the source for the rules name though:

 

They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear."

~The Emperor of Mankind, on the Creation of the Space Marines

 

 

Agreed

 

Yes, if I took the Marine codex so I could get access to Land Speeders and such, well, we had anti-grav technology during the Crusades. Surely there's still a few remaining, with all the Dark Mechanicus the owning Lord can muster looking after it?

Not enought for GW to put them in any Chaos Codex since 2nd Edition appearently. I find it really difficult to accept anything that was not available to Chaos ever since 2nd Edition as being fluffy for them.

 

 

Yeah, im with you on this. Despite what you might think, we ARE the backwoods hicks that dont have access to the premier gear that the space marines have. Accept this fact and deal with it, its been like that since the beginning. It was like that during the american cival war. The south was severly limited and the north just kept producing firearms, cannons, and more personel.

 

As for scouts, you can't tell me that the Night Lords, a Legion that scorns faith in all its forms, would use religious cultists to replenish its numbers? I find it much more fitting that they would take traitor Guard, and you know, actually get them to prove their worth in combat?

I am not entirely sure how Chaos Legions create new Marines. That never was as well documented as it was for loyalists. Loyalists cannot make anyone a Space Marine that has exceeded the age of 14, since the person has to "grow" to be a Space Marine. So I don't really know what to think of Chaos Legion using fully experienced guardsmen (or cultists) as recruits.

 

 

The only real documentation that im aware of as far as creating new marines is concerned is the story of fabius bile, that doesnt mean there isnt out there, but if there is its very remote and probably used once as an example for something or a passing sentence in some book. In second ed. chaos was able to take 25% of their total force from the guard codex if they wanted, and that pretty much meant ANYTHING from within their codex, there were a few restrictions but not many. There are comments in books and stories about some people fighting against the emperium for a shorter period than other soldiers. In the dark apostle it was mentioned that jaraluk's apprentice had been fighting against the emperium for a few hundred years less than Kol'Badar, so its obviously being used by probably all of the legions to some extent or another.

 

That Night Lords wouldn't make use of Sniper Rifles?

No, they wouldn't. Night Lords (and really all Marines, traitors as well as loyalists) are well aware of the effect the sight of giant power armoured super warriors disemboweling their foes in close cobat has on enemy morale.

 

 

This is where i disagree with both of you a little bit. There is probably nothing on the battlefield more terrifying or hated to or by infantry than a sniper dug in somewhere pecking your unit off one at a time, maybe wound one and then allow his team to try and rescue him creating more casualties, ect ect...This is normal storyline stuff that happens in movies, but there are infinite documented accounts of things like that happening in reality (most especially vietnam), and look at the psychological effects that it had on our soldiers who came back alive or even during the war itself. I cannot see how ANYONE can argue against this for alpha legion or even night lords as their base ground troops.

 

 

Other than that, the Marine codex gives a good feel for the Night Lords, a Legion who don't use Chaos

They despise the pandering of the other legions, but since when did the Night Lords not use Chaos? They are Chaos Marines through and through.

 

Agreed 100%

[Legatus]

They didn't use Chaos ever since the Index Astartes said the Night Lords have nothing but scorn for religion of any kind, hating both the Imperial Creed and the Chaos Gods. I'm not sure of the exact quote, but its something along those lines.

They can be played quite well as simply spiky space marines, but they could use demons or sorcerers as well. And it really is one of the subtle buties of the new Codex Chaos that Night Lords, Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors might try to cope completely without any cult marks, but may allways be tempted to do so. Such is teh lure of chaos. ;)

 

As for orbital bombardments not being "original"

Bombardment is the game of Iron Warriors, Imperial Fists, Imperial Navy. There is nothing "Night Lord" about it. In the Index Astartes they were described (in the case of grendels world) to bombard unpopulated areas just so that the dust clouds would shroud the world in darkness, putting additional psycholoical stress on the inhabitants.

 

As for sniper rifles, how scared would you be

Alaitoc are known for their snipers, as are certain imperial regiments. Vindicare Assassins are the masters of snipers. Night Lords don't come to mind when one thinks about snipers.

 

The undivided chaos units are all quite strong. They just aren't very flashy. With Terminators, Veterans, Chaos Marines, Raptors, Havocs and Tanks you can make a basic Space Marine army, but without Scouts, Land Speeders or Drop Pods. It is the modus operandi of teh Night Lords that is different. So use a different modus operandi. A lot of the destinct features of the Night Lords way of war does not really take place during the actual combat, but has more of long term consequences. After they have massacred the army in your game of 40K, other forces of the opposing side might be discouraged. Or the army you are fighting might be discouraged from the start because of what the Night Lords have previously done. Their terror tactics are strategical, and not some trick that unfolds during a fight.

I have always (since the Index Astartes anyway) imagined how cool it would be if in some sort of planetary campaign the Night Lords would seize the broadcasting stations as their first act and all opposing forces would get morale penalties from that point on.

 

This is where i disagree with both of you a little bit. There is probably nothing on the battlefield more terrifying or hated to or by infantry than a sniper dug in somewhere pecking your unit off one at a time, maybe wound one and then allow his team to try and rescue him creating more casualties, ect ect...This is normal storyline stuff that happens in movies, but there are infinite documented accounts of things like that happening in reality (most especially vietnam), and look at the psychological effects that it had on our soldiers who came back alive or even during the war itself. I cannot see how ANYONE can argue against this for alpha legion or even night lords as their base ground troops.

Because Space Marines are shock troops. Giant, power armoured shock troops. Spiky in the case of chaos marines. I assume no one in past wars has ever faced giant power armoured warriors with chain saws before.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, they did have a rule before for the Night Lords taking over the comms arrays of the enemy, it gave the enemy a negative to Reserves rolls. I'd much rather have that, along with free Night Vision, access to Daemonic Visage, and Steath Adept, to represent my Night Lords than cheap Raptors. The Daemonic Visage represents that the enemies heart isn't in them, and they're much more likely to run, due to the scare tactics already employed. Also, Night Lords previously had the option of forcing a game to be played using Night Fighting if they were the attackers.

 

I'm just going to leave your arguments about army tactics. You seem set on Night Lords being just "Rargh! Cut them and broadcast it!" and nothing beyond that.

[chillin]

I think the C: s/m's might be used to represent NL's as well as AL and IW's better then the current chaos "codex" that's been dumbed down b/c us chaos players are so easily confused be options and army choices.

I think that to keep it chaos, you have to limit yourself to things that are not loyalist specific. If you're taking landspeeders, hand carried plasma cannons etc., you are just playing s/m's and calling them chaos, in order to get things you shouldn't have access to. Then you can't say that you're using the s/m codex to better represent you chaos army b/c you are "representing" s/m's.

[Legatus]

In a game of 40K the armies start within immediate vicinity of each other. I believe that is when the Night Lords strike and start massacring the enemy forces. Bombardment (in the case of Iron Warriors mostly) or terror tactics have happened long before that point. A game of 40K is when the opposing forces finally meet.

 

If you want to switch to codex space marines in order to better represent Night Lord tactics, Orbital Strikes and Snipers are not a good argument.

[Monkeychunks]

No, but Drop Pods may well be. Completely dictate the flow of battle and annihilate less protected parts.

[Kalrik]

In PC&A there's a guy who made a renagade chapter who could use either book depending on his mood, the models were striking, and in apoc he uses both halves (loyalist and renegade) to represent his army properly.

 

Lets face it the Chaos book let down at least 4 legions, probably more.

 

Alpha Legion can totally be better suited by the new Marine codex, Kahn gives the entire army outflank... dice it how you want, that's something thats really attractive, much more attractive then say, Daemonprinces, Daemons, Obliterators, and Defilers that I'm not "supposed" to field.

 

A thought occurred to me the other day, to my Knowledge Codex:CSM is the only book in the range currently, where you have to feel guilty about taking a unit...

 

Tyranids don't have to feel guilty about taking one unit type over another...

Necrons don't have to feel guilty about taking one unit type over another (not that they have options)

Orks don't have to feel guilty about taking one unit type over another...

 

So why should Chaos? Our book is already kinda Meh... why should we have to suffer further?

 

Make the chaos codex work, I have Halberd armed Alpha Legion that count as Khorne Beserkers, but fluff wise, they're a special unit trained to fight melee, they "infiltrated" CC Chapters and learned from them such as blood angels.

 

Whatever codex you use, its your choice, your game, and your oponent has to deal, and unless they're another chaos player, they need to shut up cause their codex doesn't fluff-restrict their army choices... ours does.

[Smurfalypse]

This is where i disagree with both of you a little bit. There is probably nothing on the battlefield more terrifying or hated to or by infantry than a sniper dug in somewhere pecking your unit off one at a time, maybe wound one and then allow his team to try and rescue him creating more casualties, ect ect...This is normal storyline stuff that happens in movies, but there are infinite documented accounts of things like that happening in reality (most especially vietnam), and look at the psychological effects that it had on our soldiers who came back alive or even during the war itself. I cannot see how ANYONE can argue against this for alpha legion or even night lords as their base ground troops.

Because Space Marines are shock troops. Giant, power armoured shock troops. Spiky in the case of chaos marines. I assume no one in past wars has ever faced giant power armoured warriors with chain saws before.

 

Giant power armored behemoth or not, a few of you get your knee's shot out and all of the sudden you are thinking twice about running through that open area. The idea is the hidden threat not something huge and bulking standing in front of you. But hey, thats just me.

[Legatus]

A thought occurred to me the other day, to my Knowledge Codex:CSM is the only book in the range currently, where you have to feel guilty about taking a unit...

 

Old (current) Codex Space Marines: If you want to play "Codex" you get none of the traits. Like furious charge, tank hunter or two special weapons.

 

New Codex Space Marines: If you want to refrain from special characters (I usually do) you don't get any of teh fancy alternative armies. I play Ultramarines, and the rumoured Calgar rules sound really sweet after two editions of whimpy rules, but the hell am I going to field the chapter master in every simple 1500 point game.

 

Codex Imperial Guard: If you want to have specialised rules you cannot take 10 of their units, unless you buy them back with your 5 doctrine points one by one.

 

Codex Eldar: Feel free to take Wraithguard as troops in non-Iyanden forces, Pathfinders in non-Alaitoc forces or large abounts of jetbikes in non-Saim-Hann forces. Just as with the new Codex Chaos, GW has tried to make every craftworld playable with the basic list.

 

Giant power armored behemoth or not, a few of you get your knee's shot out and all of the sudden you are thinking twice about running through that open area. The idea is the hidden threat not something huge and bulking standing in front of you. But hey, thats just me.

When several units of Night Lords have deployed and are close to the enemy position the time for "hidden threats" is over I would say.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

If Space Marines want to be fluffy they can't take everything either. Salamanders with bikes as troops or Crimson Fists with heaps of terminators would probably not be all that fluffy. Or Ultramarines with Tyrannic War Veterans. (thank god they are gone)

 

Yes, but they can build a viable list within those fluff restrictions. They get bonuses for taking those restrictions. Salamanders give up the bikes so they can get that crazy melta stuff (what was it, all meltas twin linked or some such?).

 

What if i want to play alpha legion? 3 units of infiltrating chosen? Sure. Chaos codex can do that, and then use my "uber" vanilla marines as troops. But if i want the minimum number of troops to be competitive, then my list is pretty much going to be hq+3 chosen squads+3 vanilla marine squads. This list will be great until i actually play a game with it. I'm sure i could win some games, but it is not compeititive. And its not even that fluffy. What would be more fluffy is that marine special character who gives the entire army outflank or infiltrate or whatever it is.

 

World Eaters? Khorne lord + berzerkers + defilers, maybe some of those great not fearless terminators? Yeah, it works. But what works better is blood angels. I see a lot more pre-hersey world eater players using blood angel rules than actual world eater players with the chaos codex, and i know several people who played world eaters in the previous codex who have either quit chaos, quit the game, or switched to blood angel rules.

 

The only legions i think the current codex can represent are black legion, and Emperor's children, and word bearers. It does a poor job at EC and WB, but there simply are no daemons or i5 and sonic weaponry anywhere else. Regular marine book is better for al renegade lists as well.

[Legatus]

Every one in the previous Alpha Legion list could infiltrate, yeah, but I thought Alpha Legion was about striking with several different means, so I would assume a well rounded force with a bit of everything would be fluffy.

 

How are Blood Angels in any way suited to represent World Eaters? World Eaters got more diverse with the current Codex Chaos than they previously were. The previous Codex had Berserkers, berserkers on Bikes, and Berserker Chosen/Terminators. The khornified CSM units in the new Codex are not fearless unfortunately, but now you can even field reasonably priced World Eater Assault Squads (without paying 43+ points for winged chosen or possessed) and World Eaters Havocs (also known as the teeth or Khorne in the old World Eaters army list in Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, back when khorne was a god of warfare). And everyone claiming World Eaters don't use tanks should take a look at the list of khorne war machines from epic 40K.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Every one in the previous Alpha Legion list could infiltrate, yeah, but I thought Alpha Legion was about striking with several different means, so I would assume a well rounded force with a bit of everything would be fluffy.

 

Thats like saying that World Eaters like fighting, so any list that fights works for them. Or that word bearers use daemons, so any list works for word bearers as long as there are daemons.

 

Game rule wise, alpha legion is defined by Infiltrate/outflank, and cultists. Those are the things that make them different from any other list.

 

How are Blood Angels in any way suited to represent World Eaters? World Eaters got more diverse with the current Codex Chaos than they previously were. The previous Codex had Berserkers, berserkers on Bikes, and Berserker Chosen/Terminators. The khornified CSM units in the new Codex are not fearless unfortunately, but now you can even field reasonably priced World Eater Assault Squads (without paying 43+ points for winged chosen or possessed) and World Eaters Havocs (also known as the teeth or Khorne in the old World Eaters army list in Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, back when khorne was a god of warfare). And everyone claiming World Eaters don't use tanks should take a look at the list of khorne war machines from epic 40K.

 

Key word Berserkers. Having a World Eaters army of Marines with Icon of Khorne would be as stupid as having a Blood Angels army that is just the regular mairne codex but with everyone having bp/cc weapon instead of bolters and a red paint job. And i can't remember anybody claiming world eaters don't use tanks.