Using the Loyalist codex to represent Night Lords

[Smurfalypse]

EDIT- I have since read another post of his that praises the writing of the Dark Angles codex, which I consider the least competative and worst codex of all time, so I feel bad about myself for agreeing with him....it's gonna be a long night.

Well, Space Marine squads from battle companies are 10 men strong. They are not 7 men or 9 men strong. And Terminator squads are 5 men strong. Not 6, or 8, or 10. I was hoping that the new Space Marine Codex would get similar squad structures, where you could only get 5 men combat squads or full 10 men squads, and only 5 men Terminator squads, but unfortunately whoever was in charge of the new Codex Space Marines (I assume it was not JJ, since he made Codex DA and BA) chickened out and kept the variable squad sizes. I could imagine that Jervis's idear was that loyal marines get set unit sizes but combat squads, while chaos marines get variable squad sizes. But they did not go with it.

That means until the Dark Angels Codex is redone and gets all the new flashy stuff, a Dark Angels army will be more closely and strictly organised after the Codex Astartes than most of the Ultramarine armies you will see, with the possible exception of mixed weapons in Terminator squads. But I guess the fluffy list is not allways the "most competetive" and thus sucks for some people. I think the Codex Dark Angels was the best thing for Space Marines in a long time, and I was hoping for the Codex Space Marines to be basically a Codex Dark Angels without Deathwing and Ravenwing rules.

 

If they are willing to literally throw away 13 or so years of fluff for one army, dont think for a second they wouldnt be willing to throw away ONE little piece of fluff that says "marines tend to set up in x squad size".

[Legatus]

The background for chapter and company organisation of loyal marines is more detailed than for any other force of 40k. The organisation structure of a chapter was last described in detail in the first Index Astartes book and the last Codex Space Marines, and I am pretty sure that it will also be featured in the new Codex Space Marines. A tactical squad is 10 men strong. And while the new Codex certainly encourages the use of 10 men squads by limiting the weapon options for smaller squads, you can still get squads of 6 or 7. And I don't think there are any weapon restrictions for assault squads or devastators.

[chillin]

What I said was that sniper rifles are an important part of psychological warfare. Quite a lot different from "Sniper rifles kill, therefore Night Lords should have them."

 

All of the undivided legions would use snipers. But at some point there has to be a difference between s/m's and undivided csm.

[Magnus Thane]

EDIT- I have since read another post of his that praises the writing of the Dark Angles codex, which I consider the least competative and worst codex of all time, so I feel bad about myself for agreeing with him....it's gonna be a long night.

Well, Space Marine squads from battle companies are 10 men strong. They are not 7 men or 9 men strong. And Terminator squads are 5 men strong. Not 6, or 8, or 10. I was hoping that the new Space Marine Codex would get similar squad structures, where you could only get 5 men combat squads or full 10 men squads, and only 5 men Terminator squads, but unfortunately whoever was in charge of the new Codex Space Marines (I assume it was not JJ, since he made Codex DA and BA) chickened out and kept the variable squad sizes. I could imagine that Jervis's idear was that loyal marines get set unit sizes but combat squads, while chaos marines get variable squad sizes. But they did not go with it.

That means until the Dark Angels Codex is redone and gets all the new flashy stuff, a Dark Angels army will be more closely and strictly organised after the Codex Astartes than most of the Ultramarine armies you will see, with the possible exception of mixed weapons in Terminator squads. But I guess the fluffy list is not allways the "most competetive" and thus sucks for some people. I think the Codex Dark Angels was the best thing for Space Marines in a long time, and I was hoping for the Codex Space Marines to be basically a Codex Dark Angels without Deathwing and Ravenwing rules.

 

If they are willing to literally throw away 13 or so years of fluff for one army, dont think for a second they wouldnt be willing to throw away ONE little piece of fluff that says "marines tend to set up in x squad size".

 

Compare with the Roman Legion, during war few Legions were at full strength.

So a squad could be less than full strength depending the situation.

Refilling fallen numbers isn't easy either under some situations.

[Legatus]

You usually don't play an army that represents a half beaten to death reminder of an original force. You cannot take damaged vehicles, or wounded characters, for example. You don't buy a "battered tactical squad".

[Magnus Thane]

You usually don't play an army that represents a half beaten to death reminder of an original force. You cannot take damaged vehicles, or wounded characters, for example. You don't buy a "battered tactical squad".

 

A lot of Chapters are not at full strength at any given time. Same with subsections.

I'm afraid i don't really see how my comment is incorrect and why it would be improper to field a non-complete squad.

[chillin]

It's noy improper to field a "non-complete squad" You just don't have a 2nd special weop in a non-complete squad.

[Legatus]

A lot of Chapters are not at full strength at any given time.

You are still not creating a battle damaged force when making an army. Perhaps you can field a (read: one) non-complete squad. But why every squad of your army? Imperials have to take a minimum of full squads and only then have the option to make one of the 5 possible squads of a platoon non-complete.

In the next Codex Space Marines, tactical squads will at least be heavily penalised for not being bought as complete squads. Any squad with less than 10 members cannot get any weapon options at all, not even a single special weapon. I would have prefered the rules from Dark Angels, where squads can be bought as combat squads of 5 or full squads of 10, but at least the new codex rules will encourace people to take complete squads.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

What if sombody is playing a marine chapter other than ultra marines? You do realize that there are plenty of of chapters that do not follow the Codex so closely that could have whatever size squad they want?

 

And there are plenty of examples in fluff of marine squads staying at low strength for long periods of time. Brothers of the Snake comes to mind.

 

Any squad with less than 10 members cannot get any weapon options at all, not even a single special weapon.

 

Doesn't that kind of make your whole whine moot? Your 10 man fluffy squads are enforced by non ten man squads being crappy. Its alright though, whenever you run into an SM player running less than 10 man squads you can look down on him for not being extremely fluffy when it comes to a small detail that may well not apply to his chapter/situation.

 

I notice you are getting annoyed by 1 minor thing in the codex that you see as being a fluff inconsistency. Have you looked at the Chaos Codex lately?

[northoceanbeach]

I'd really be interested to hear what squads in the new Mrine codex best represent the night lords. I see:

 

Shrike for infiltrating and fleet

Combat tactics for hit and run

Assault squads, but there are already raptors

Terminators, have those

Bikes, have those, ours are just overpriced

drop pods, while maybe but do we have to have everything?

 

That's it. Really the more I think about it, the less it is starting to sound good. It's no more night lords than the current chaos codex. All it really does is make some squads cheaper, and give you a couple rules. And really I only see shrike's as totally fitting. For having six pages of this post, I have seen alot of argueing about how it does or doesn't represent, but no real examples from the does croud. I guess I am now leaning to just accepting that our codex sucks and while I want to use shrike and cheaper raptors that don't run off the board below half, I would still have about the same army list with the SM that I do now, it would just be a little better.

 

At least I can use my obliterators now. That's all it is, they're both bad options, so it's

 

Obliterators vs. Shrike.

[the jeske]

why khan with his bike troops and attacking from all sides not NL enough for you ? its even better you could take 3 units of bikes and the uber cheap raptors in fast attack . ultra fast force attacking from everywhere . + a land raider crusader with thunder hammer termis and tigurius [outflanking too because of khan] . list would be uber .

[Legatus]

I notice you are getting annoyed by 1 minor thing in the codex that you see as being a fluff inconsistency. Have you looked at the Chaos Codex lately?

As with loyalist Marines, where the organisational structures from 2nd Edition marked my view of how they are traditionally and properly organised, I started my Chaos army in 2nd Edition as well. There were no legion specific army lists back then, and indeed there was not much information on how the different legion armies would be different from another. Now whe have had a very detailed description of the different legions in the Index Astartes, but as was done with Eldar and Orks the new Codex Chaos was designed to enable you to build differently themed armies form the basic list. Also, though the idear that all the legion forces keep to themself was promoted by the last Codex, a lot of the legions, especially the cult ones, are not really operation as a coherent force on their own anymore. You would find members of the World Eaters or Emperors Children fight alongside Word Bearer or Iron Warrior forces as much as you would see Ordo Malleus Grey Knights or Ordo Xenos Deathwatch marines fight alongside regular loyalist chapters. In times of black crusades (which do account for much of the most threatening chaos activities) most of the Legions are fighting together for a common goal. Chaos Legions are not as much seperate entities as loyalist chapters are. World Eaters and Emperors Children are scattered, Thousand Sons are divided between those loyal to Ahriman and those loyal to Magnus. Fabius Bile, originally from the Emperors Children, works for different masters as the opportunities arise. According to some recent Black Library novels there are different factions inside some of the other Legions as well (Night Lords, Iron Warriors).

Chaos marines often operate in warbands of different renegades. It is an interesting idear to purely concentrate on marines of a single legion, but that is not as necessary as it might be with loyalists. The Index Astartes articles have started with the idear of single-legion armies, and the 3.5 Codex has reinforced that idear, but that was not the case in the 2nd or 3rd Edition codices. The current Codex Chaos is as much "back to the roots" as the current Codex Dark Angels is, and I am not really unhappy with that.

I could play "chaos warband" in the 3.5 Codex as well, and sometimes I did. Using my Plague Marine squad or some berserkers and Khorne demons in an army of mainly Night Lord CSM. With the curent codex I can also do that. If I want to play purely Night Lords I simply leave out all the cult units and marks. I may even build the force to more represent the Night Lord style of fighting, but as there was no such background in 2nd Edition when I started them, I do not necessarily feel compelled to do so. "Night Lords" or "Word Bearers" is so much more of an attitude and a different goal for your battles than necessarily a different army list. Both armies could be competely identical, but in case of the Word Bearers, after they have defeated the enemy military (with boltguns an dchainswords) they will take slaves and force them to erect massive monuments to their dark gods, wheras Night Lords will procede to methodically slaughter the civillian population.

 

You do realize that there are plenty of of chapters that do not follow the Codex so closely that could have whatever size squad they want?

That would be a small minority, and I don't think a "Codex Space Marines" should necessarily account for a few stray chapters.

 

Bikes, have those, ours are just overpriced

Chaos bikes have one more attack than loyalist bikes though (bp/ccw).

 

why khan with his bike troops and attacking from all sides not NL enough for you ?

Yeah, at least he would allow the Night Lords to outflank the enemy again. Like they could before. No, wait...

 

+ a land raider crusader with thunder hammer termis

...

[Drudge Dreadnought]

As with loyalist Marines, where the organisational structures from 2nd Edition marked my view of how they are traditionally and properly organised, I started my Chaos army in 2nd Edition as well. There were no legion specific army lists back then, and indeed there was not much information on how the different legion armies would be different from another. Now whe have had a very detailed description of the different legions in the Index Astartes, but as was done with Eldar and Orks the new Codex Chaos was designed to enable you to build differently themed armies form the basic list. Also, though the idear that all the legion forces keep to themself was promoted by the last Codex, a lot of the legions, especially the cult ones, are not really operation as a coherent force on their own anymore. You would find members of the World Eaters or Emperors Children fight alongside Word Bearer or Iron Warrior forces as much as you would see Ordo Malleus Grey Knights or Ordo Xenos Deathwatch marines fight alongside regular loyalist chapters. In times of black crusades (which do account for much of the most threatening chaos activities) most of the Legions are fighting together for a common goal. Chaos Legions are not as much seperate entities as loyalist chapters are. World Eaters and Emperors Children are scattered, Thousand Sons are divided between those loyal to Ahriman and those loyal to Magnus. Fabius Bile, originally from the Emperors Children, works for different masters as the opportunities arise. According to some recent Black Library novels there are different factions inside some of the other Legions as well (Night Lords, Iron Warriors).

Chaos marines often operate in warbands of different renegades. It is an interesting idear to purely concentrate on marines of a single legion, but that is not as necessary as it might be with loyalists. The Index Astartes articles have started with the idear of single-legion armies, and the 3.5 Codex has reinforced that idear, but that was not the case in the 2nd or 3rd Edition codices. The current Codex Chaos is as much "back to the roots" as the current Codex Dark Angels is, and I am not really unhappy with that.

I could play "chaos warband" in the 3.5 Codex as well, and sometimes I did. Using my Plague Marine squad or some berserkers and Khorne demons in an army of mainly Night Lord CSM. With the curent codex I can also do that. If I want to play purely Night Lords I simply leave out all the cult units and marks. I may even build the force to more represent the Night Lord style of fighting, but as there was no such background in 2nd Edition when I started them, I do not necessarily feel compelled to do so. "Night Lords" or "Word Bearers" is so much more of an attitude and a different goal for your battles than necessarily a different army list. Both armies could be competely identical, but in case of the Word Bearers, after they have defeated the enemy military (with boltguns an dchainswords) they will take slaves and force them to erect massive monuments to their dark gods, wheras Night Lords will procede to methodically slaughter the civillian population.

 

So in short, you are not upset by the loss of rules that support fluff because when you started there was no fluff to be supported? Is that the correct interpretation of what you are saying? If that is the case i would simply point out that now there IS fluff to be supported. And just because it wasn't supported by rules back in second edition doesn't mean that it was a good idea to dump the support that has been added over 3rd and 4th ed. The game is supposed to be evolving and improving. There is no reason whatsoever to take steps backward, and saying its all fine and dandy because we didn't have these fancy legion rules in 2nd edition doesn't really mean anything. This is a bit of an extreme example, but it would be as ridiculous as having a new american president announce that we are going back to being a monarchy and removing all civil rights and that its all fine because oppresive monarchies worked fine back a few hundred years ago.

[Magnus Thane]

You usually don't play an army that represents a half beaten to death reminder of an original force. You cannot take damaged vehicles, or wounded characters, for example. You don't buy a "battered tactical squad".

 

A lot of Chapters are not at full strength at any given time. Same with subsections.

I'm afraid i don't really see how my comment is incorrect and why it would be improper to field a non-complete squad.

 

Aah i see, must have misread. (came in a bit late in this bit of the discussion)

 

As for the Legionspecific things going. Either way i don't mind. I liked the previous codex. And i like this one.

I even considered making an additional Chaos Force when it came out but didn't due to the prices. (i'll just expand my BL)

I still see it perfectly possible to make a fluffy force of any side.

[Legatus]

So in short, you are not upset by the loss of rules that support fluff because when you started there was no fluff to be supported? Is that the correct interpretation of what you are saying? If that is the case i would simply point out that now there IS fluff to be supported. And just because it wasn't supported by rules back in second edition doesn't mean that it was a good idea to dump the support that has been added over 3rd and 4th ed. The game is supposed to be evolving and improving. There is no reason whatsoever to take steps backward, and saying its all fine and dandy because we didn't have these fancy legion rules in 2nd edition doesn't really mean anything.

You can still go ahead and make chaos armies that represent just a single legion. And you can take units that the legion might favour. What you don't get is something special for each legion which no one else can have. But I don't see the fluff demanding such things. Night Lords like to strike hard and decisive. But if the Word Bearers wanted to do that at some point, would they be unable to do that? Couldn't the Iron Warriors infiltrate or suprise attack a foe? Not every enemy will be hiding in massive fortifications. A small group of World Eater Renegades is cruising in the region, looking for blood. Which of the Legions (well, the EC perhaps) would absolutely decline working with them (utilising them)? They could just throw them at the enemy head first, and they would be happy. The legion forces favour certain types of warfare, and you can build your force accordingly.

 

I bet if only Iron Warriors were allowed Vindicators, if only Night Lrds would be allowed more than one unit of Raptors, and if only Alpha Legion would be allowed infiltrating veterans, a lot less people would complain. But now everyone can use these units, and now it is not fluffy anymore.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

So in short, you are not upset by the loss of rules that support fluff because when you started there was no fluff to be supported? Is that the correct interpretation of what you are saying? If that is the case i would simply point out that now there IS fluff to be supported. And just because it wasn't supported by rules back in second edition doesn't mean that it was a good idea to dump the support that has been added over 3rd and 4th ed. The game is supposed to be evolving and improving. There is no reason whatsoever to take steps backward, and saying its all fine and dandy because we didn't have these fancy legion rules in 2nd edition doesn't really mean anything.

You can still go ahead and make chaos armies that represent just a single legion. And you can take units that the legion might favour. What you don't get is something special for each legion which no one else can have. But I don't see the fluff demanding such things. Night Lords like to strike hard and decisive. But if the Word Bearers wanted to do that at some point, would they be unable to do that? Couldn't the Iron Warriors infiltrate or suprise attack a foe? Not every enemy will be hiding in massive fortifications. A small group of World Eater Renegades is cruising in the region, looking for blood. Which of the Legions (well, the EC perhaps) would absolutely decline working with them (utilising them)? They could just throw them at the enemy head first, and they would be happy. The legion forces favour certain types of warfare, and you can build your force accordingly.

 

I bet if only Iron Warriors were allowed Vindicators, if only Night Lrds would be allowed more than one unit of Raptors, and if only Alpha Legion would be allowed infiltrating veterans, a lot less people would complain. But now everyone can use these units, and now it is not fluffy anymore.

 

You completely misunderstand. What you have just stated is not the problem. Word Bearers certainly could use night lord style terror tactics, and i see no reason Iron Warriors wouldn't use infiltrators. You are dead on in that area. The issue is one of degrees and extreme specialization. The problem is not that other legions/warbands can use any given legion's trademark tactic. The problem is that its not possible to do just that tactic. It is not possible to make an army that can infiltrate or outflank with every unit in the new codex. And so Alpha Legion doesn't work right. You could certainly have a list with 3 chosen squads and have it be alpha legion, but it isn't really for the same reason that an all icon of Khorne army isn't World Eaters. To recap from earlier in the thread, its because you stop being devoted to Khorne as soon as the Icon Bearer bites it. And while you can help this problem somewhat with cult troops, you are still left out in the cold when it comes to everythinig but troops. As soon as your Terminators fail their morale check and leg it off the board or get swept you know you arn't playing World Eaters because world eater terminators don't run. You know you arn't playing EC when you start counting the Blastmaster on your forge world dreadnought as a lascannon or missile launcher, and that doom siren on your lord is just for show because only your basic troops can take the gear that is one of the defining points of your legion. Nobody minds that Black Legion players can take some sonic weaponry, we care that our pure EC army can only take as much as them.

[Legatus]

The problem with the current icon ruling is one I completely agree with, though there are also possessed and demons as fearless units to utilise for World Eaters. Fleeing Khorne Terminators is not something I would like to see, but then I still remember that the berserkers in 2nd Edition were only fearless because they were under the "frenzy" effect, and that effect was lost if the unit was ever beaten in combat (like it still is in WHFB 7th). But I admittedly have grown accustomed to the fearless berserkers.

As a tradeoff, plain berserkers (and again, in 2nd there were only those) are now quite destructive on the charge.

(I am still missing some special close combat weapons for berserkers though. Why can't they get 1-2 powerweapons or powerfists if they cannot get any ranged weapon options? There are several marine units (BT, SW, command squads, veterans, chosen) that can get such weapon upgrades, but not the most dedicated close combat unit of them all? Just like Space Marine assault squads. It seems to be an obvious unit feature, and berserkers as well as assault marines had such options in 2nd, but no...)

 

I am not so sure about Alpha Legion. Only because every unit in the army coud get the infiltration ability does not mean that every unit had to get it. I can even imagine that a completely infiltrating (and now also flanking) chaos space marine army was taken out of the codex on purpose.

(That is somewhat contradictory to loyalist space marines now getting an all flanking force, but then again that would not be the only issue where the new Codex Space Marines does not stick with the principles that were introduced with the last batch of codices and indeed seems to disregard some of the started trends completely.)

Kind of like the Iron Warrior forces with 9 Obliterators. Yes, they might be more common in Iron Warrior armies, and they are not limited to 0-1 unit, but that does not mean that every Iron Warrior army allways has the maximum of possible Obliterators.

 

The Emperors Children do not exclusivelly use noise weapons, and indeed they were considered to be one of the stronger cult armies in the last codex because contrary to the three others they were not limited in their weapon options. My sympathies go to those who cannot use noise weapons on tanks, dreads and terminators anymore, but you would not need such weaponry to have a proper Emperors Children army. But perhaps that is again 2nd/3rd Edition speaking, where there was only that one special noise marine squad. The abundance of noise weaponry that was given to them in the last codex has not really stuck with me.

[northoceanbeach]

come on now! your argument for everything is, well I remember in second. How long ago was that? It's got to have been 15 years! I never even played then. The game grows, man, it's supposed to get better and more in depth. You can't want them to have written all the fluff 20 years ago and it's set in stone and that's it, the game would never have made it this far. Everybody but you knows that this codex is boring. Maybe you can make a fluffy NL army, but there;s little options and over time if you play enough, you want some options. This codex is written like it's the first codex for a new game. Simple and basic. You can't regress like that.

[northoceanbeach]

I did just go back and read the rules for korsharro khan and a command squad and I'm drooling to think of that as Night lords.

 

He's ok himself, but it's the furious charge and outflannk he gives his command squad that gets me. They're so good becasue they can have:

bikes

2 base attacks

AND, these bikes have 2 close combat weapons so 4 attacks on charge, plus rapid firing of the twin linked bike bolters on the way in

T5 and Feel no pain for him too from the apothecary.

 

For not TOO many points you get a nasty and versatile squad.

[Legatus]

There are actually more khorne options now than in the last codex. Basically any unit can be customised with icons, but that does not help the people who do not want to take any cult units. "Chaos" is quite versatile. "Night Lords" are more limited. Not in terms of units, but in terms of extra little bits. The csm units champion cannot get +1 strength, or -1 for the enemy unit, the whole csm unit cannot get +1 for armour penetration rolls. The whole unit can get a 5+ invulnerable save though, or +1 attack. But those options are labeled as "cult" upgrades.

 

And you really should take into account that all the other codices published in the last years have been streamlined just like that. Take a look at Codex Dark Angels or Codex Eldar. It is a different design philosophy, and not a problem of the Codex Chaos. In the end of the day, your basic chaos marine is stronger in combat than your basic space marine, but he is a teensy weensy bit less reliable because he has only LD 9, while the Space Marine has ATSKNF.

[chillin]

I thought about trying to use the upcoming s/m dex to represent undivided BL.

In csm 3.5 dex I evolved into runing an all undivided army (as in no cult troops and no marks other then MoCU) and I loved it.

Due to many changes in the csm dex , I have a harder time doing that now (getting better over time).

Thought the s/m dex might inable me to run all undivided chaos like I love.

 

Problem.... combat tactics...the ability to run away whenever the fight seems to not be going your way seems VERY not BL'y (BL'esk ? ), so only s/m armies that got stubborn would do (represents

"hatred" BL got toward almost everybody in pwr armor in "Slaves to Darkness".

 

Only 2 ways to get "stubborn" (that I know of)

* Could take Lysander (sp?). He gives "stubborn" to the army...great. Gives "bolter drill (reroll misses to all bolter/HB shots) no problem for me (ever read the HH books ? the Luna Wolves' bolter drill = 2ed to none).... Problem, lysander, equiped w storm shield & thunder hammer, neither of which chaos can have. He's out.

* Could take Pedro Cantor. Gives army "stubborn"...great. Can take 1 unit of sternguard vets as scoring, no prob for me, BL having S.W.A.T. vets, absolutly fluffy. Orbital strike.,.BL has fleets of battle ships, no fluff problem. "inspiring presence" (+1 attack for those w/in 12")...reason to give "retinue and 1 other squad bp & ccw,, spearpoint if you will, totally BL fluffy. Cantor armed with special ap4 assault 4 bolter, no fluff prob. for me, kai gun or TL'ed bolter w/ specical ammo. He's also armed w/ a PF. A definate fluff prob. for me, just doesn't seem like a chaos lord thing to have. Cantor is pretty much out.

Any one can think ofa fluffy BL proxy using C:s/m let's hear it , otherwise I'm stuck with C:csm 4.0 for the next 3-4 yrs. :P

[Drudge Dreadnought]

What's unfluffy about chaos lords using powerfists?

[the jeske]

The current Codex Chaos is as much "back to the roots" as the current Codex Dark Angels is, and I am not really unhappy with that.

thats not exactlly the truth , when the DT was doing the2ed codex there were legion armies in it , they were cut because the book was already really big and GW didnt want it to be another SoD . Also as the fluff go yes legions do fight durning the crusades , but they never fight in the same battle . Most of the legions hate each other or see themselfs as superior to the others . The indoctrination and the legion wars when they fled to the eye led to that . I mean I cant imagine WE fighting alongside EC [also I cant really bring up the fluff for it post terra assault] ? cult legions and WB , when there is nothing more "heretical" for a WB then single god worship ? No chaos is not a one big happy family they never where . Of course GW may change that . Its their fluff , but the definintion of how legion work etc Was the best thing the old DT team did with w40k throwing that away is losing the best thing they did to chaos since the time of SoD .

 

The abundance of noise weaponry that was given to them in the last codex has not really stuck with me

why? it was in the 2ed fluff . and again "legion" rules were planed for the 2ed , they were just cut out of the dex , because of the size of the codex .

 

Which of the Legions (well, the EC perhaps) would absolutely decline working with them (utilising them)?

the 1ksons both the kabal and the ahriman sect . the AL because the WE operate inside the empire , so it would be really hard to find a WE warband inside the imperial space [aside maybe for black crusade times] . Any other cult legions , as any offering [aka kill] made by the WE would give more power to khorn and not their god ? WB with their hatred of one chaos god worshipers .

[northoceanbeach]

I have decided that it is a fine option for the title of the post. Here is a list that I am going to use. I hope it's fun and competitive for me and whoever I play.

 

Korsharro Khan on Moondrakken 205

 

Command sqaud on bikes with company champion 220

 

 

10 Night Lords- melta, lascannon, combi melta. 195

 

10 night lords- - melta, lascannon, combi melta. 195

 

10 night lords- power fist, flamer, missile, rhino 230

 

10 night lords- power fist, flamer, missile, rhino 230

 

10 Raptors- 2 flamers, lightning claws 240

 

10 Raptors-2 flamers, power fist 235

------------

1750

[the jeske]

but thats gunline ? its meh . and "raptors" arent scoring , bikes are better [your not using KHHaaNNns army buffs , if you dont take bikes]. also the lack of psychic hood makes your army suffer from psychic powers .