Using the Loyalist codex to represent Night Lords

[Legatus]

but thats gunline ? its meh . and "raptors" arent scoring , bikes are better [your not using KHHaaNNns army buffs , if you dont take bikes]

I think the army is more supposed to make use of the "outflanking for everyone" khan provides.

 

also the lack of psychic hood makes your army suffer from psychic powers .

...yes, while you are at it, why not use all the exclusively loyalist stuff you can get your hands on? :rolleyes:

[Nicili]

Hmm, I'm on the side that has no problem with Chaos using the new codex.

 

However something that stuck out to me was renegades and the like.

 

Players with their lists of things not available to chaos, i.e. Speeders, thunder hammers, drop pods, scouts, venerable dreadnoughts, whilrlwinds, etc. kind of miss the whole point of chaos sustenance. Chaos thrives on looting and pirating, very much which could lead to the pillaging of these technologies.

 

Another thing, what about (more) recently turned renegades, who would have had access to this equipment at the time of their fall. Thus renegades could use alot of this equipment. Now what if we take this concept a step further and say that what if a renegade was assimilated with all their equipment into a legion? Wouldn't some perfectly functioning equipment fall into the hands of the legion?

 

To me it seems like players still see the concept as that in order to have character as a chaos chapter, limitations must be taken. "Oh you can use the new C:SM to represent your legion/renegade, just be sure to limit yourself so you don't seem like your exploiting anything here." While SM player have access to the whole armory because "A normal chapter would have all this access."

 

Why do I feel like Chaos is the unloved step-brother to Loyalist players? ;)

 

Just me expressin' my mind.

 

-Nicili

[Legatus]

Players with their lists of things not available to chaos, i.e. Speeders, thunder hammers, drop pods, scouts, venerable dreadnoughts, whilrlwinds, etc. kind of miss the whole point of chaos sustenance. Chaos thrives on looting and pirating, very much which could lead to the pillaging of these technologies.

I would say that looting some equipment and having direct support from forgeworlds that produce that equipment is quite different. And they could loot most of the equipment only from other space marines, who are an equal foe, so they could not just take the gear with minimal onw casualties, as they maybe could if they wanted to loot some imperial guard stuff.

 

Another thing, what about (more) recently turned renegades, who would have had access to this equipment at the time of their fall. Thus renegades could use alot of this equipment. Now what if we take this concept a step further and say that what if a renegade was assimilated with all their equipment into a legion? Wouldn't some perfectly functioning equipment fall into the hands of the legion?

Look at the Astral Claws and the Relictors for some recently turned renegades. It is not just a sudden change in attitude of the chapter. It is usually accompanied with problems.

 

To me it seems like players still see the concept as that in order to have character as a chaos chapter, limitations must be taken. "Oh you can use the new C:SM to represent your legion/renegade, just be sure to limit yourself so you don't seem like your exploiting anything here." While SM player have access to the whole armory because "A normal chapter would have all this access."

You are not seeing it objectively and only from one angle. If on, the other hand, a loyalist player wanted to use the Codex Chaos Space Marines to represent his force, he would not be allowed all of their choices either. Like daemons. Loyalists have choices chaos marines would not have, and chaos marines have choices loyalists would not have.

[chillin]

Well the point of the thread was if the the s/m dex could be used to better represent NL's LEGION (read not recient renegades). You are not better representing NL's (or any other chaos LEGION) by taking things that they are not supposed to have.

[Nicili]

@ chillin-We have drifted in and out of NL and other chaos forces so I thought it to be appropriate.

 

@ Legatus- I have to disagree if a Loyalist force would choose to use the Chaos 'dex and not be able to use daemons. This is where GW's count-as rule comes into play again. I am sure you could always find some justification for them, use of all resources (i.e. ill/unsuccessful to-be marines close to death ~ Instability), natives, other possibilities, LotD...etc. I think the road would have to go both ways, and I am all for loyalists using a chaos 'dex as well.

[Legatus]

Interresting news on warseer:

Well nothing massively staggering here. But for the record here's my report. Other attendees feel free to chip in. GW put one on primarily for WD subscribers. The seminar was a joint 40K/FB event host by Jervis (40K) Andy H (FB)

 

Not much new from what I have read of the seminar at other event

 

(...)

 

One question put forward by our own HULKSTER had my FULL attention. Will we see Traitor Legion armylists. Jervis' answer was "Yes we aim to do a standalone codex for each Legion" no timescale on this at all (surprise) but if there is a genuine commitment to do this this is the best news of the entire UKGD for me. Whether these will be full 120-140 page books, please, please, please or potentially a BA style White Dwarf 'dex we don't know. To be honest I personally think the Triator Legions would be most likely to be covered in this format - its least hassle for GW and I reckon there simply isn't enough money in standalone Legion codices to warrant the print and mini costs.

 

PhilB

 

(I could not get the forum link to open. I got it from a different forum and have posted it in the faith that it is legitimate...)

[Smurfalypse]

Interresting news on warseer:

Well nothing massively staggering here. But for the record here's my report. Other attendees feel free to chip in. GW put one on primarily for WD subscribers. The seminar was a joint 40K/FB event host by Jervis (40K) Andy H (FB)

 

Not much new from what I have read of the seminar at other event

 

(...)

 

One question put forward by our own HULKSTER had my FULL attention. Will we see Traitor Legion armylists. Jervis' answer was "Yes we aim to do a standalone codex for each Legion" no timescale on this at all (surprise) but if there is a genuine commitment to do this this is the best news of the entire UKGD for me. Whether these will be full 120-140 page books, please, please, please or potentially a BA style White Dwarf 'dex we don't know. To be honest I personally think the Triator Legions would be most likely to be covered in this format - its least hassle for GW and I reckon there simply isn't enough money in standalone Legion codices to warrant the print and mini costs.

 

PhilB

 

(I could not get the forum link to open. I got it from a different forum and have posted it in the faith that it is legitimate...)

 

Im very skeptical of the whole "a stand alone for each legion" thing as it would be a HUGE sink in resources without much payout to break chaos up like that and make a codex for each and models for each. I wouldnt be surprised however if there were maybe one released (as much as this would upset me) for the four legions of the chaos gods, ie...EC, DG, WE, and TS. As much as i would love to see a legion codex for the undivided armies, i wouldnt believe it until i see it.

[Dammeron]

Interresting news on warseer:

Well nothing massively staggering here. But for the record here's my report. Other attendees feel free to chip in. GW put one on primarily for WD subscribers. The seminar was a joint 40K/FB event host by Jervis (40K) Andy H (FB)

 

Not much new from what I have read of the seminar at other event

 

(...)

 

One question put forward by our own HULKSTER had my FULL attention. Will we see Traitor Legion armylists. Jervis' answer was "Yes we aim to do a standalone codex for each Legion" no timescale on this at all (surprise) but if there is a genuine commitment to do this this is the best news of the entire UKGD for me. Whether these will be full 120-140 page books, please, please, please or potentially a BA style White Dwarf 'dex we don't know. To be honest I personally think the Triator Legions would be most likely to be covered in this format - its least hassle for GW and I reckon there simply isn't enough money in standalone Legion codices to warrant the print and mini costs.

 

PhilB

 

(I could not get the forum link to open. I got it from a different forum and have posted it in the faith that it is legitimate...)

 

 

To be quite frank, talk is cheap, Mr. Johnson. Let's see some concrete ideas, a brief synopsis of the design team's intentions with regards to the advertised Traitor Legion army lists and some kind of meaningful time frame. At the moment, these kinds of claims just come off to me as de facto damage control for the unmitigated failure of the current chaos space marine codex.

[chillin]

All the legions could easily be covered in 1 codex , and covered well at that.

Or I could see 2 dex's, one cult legions and 1 undivided.

And I would be fine w/ WD dex's (almost anything is better then now), at least that would be 9 WD's I would buy.

I just don't see each legion warranting it's own dex. I mean 9 dex's to cover the chaos legions ? That's maddness (not to mention 1 dex every year or two ;) , more then a decade (from when they start) to get chaos out.

Look how many chapters they represented in the new C:s/m's.

I just hope they do it..., and that I don't die of old age b4 it happens.

[Penmarch']

All the legions could easily be covered in 1 codex , and covered well at that.

Or I could see 2 dex's, one cult legions and 1 undivided.

And I would be fine w/ WD dex's (almost anything is better then now), at least that would be 9 WD's I would buy.

I just don't see each legion warranting it's own dex. I mean 9 dex's to cover the chaos legions ? That's maddness (not to mention 1 dex every year or two :) , more then a decade (from when they start) to get chaos out.

Look how many chapters they represented in the new C:s/m's.

I just hope they do it..., and that I don't die of old age b4 it happens.

 

Then don't give up!

Convince GW that if they don't, the more serious Chaos players are gone.

No other codex has caught so much- deserved- FlaK, so by now they should know.

 

I'm still a big advocate of having enthousiast gamers (re-) write the rulesystem and codex. It can be done. I've seen plenty of well thought out examples on this forum.

[Legatus]

Convince GW that if they don't, the more serious Chaos players are gone.

The "serious Chaos players", huh? That's not how I would have put it. ;)

[the jeske]

yeah and how would you out it ? ;)

 

thing is GW doesnt care about the vets they did their thing [bought armies/codexs , are doing free advertisment for GW with each game played in a shop/club etc] . The only thing GW is interested in is short term young buyers . And those people , even if they would like to change the fluff/rules for chaos , wont be playing the game anymore in 1/2 years time .

GW always bases the new editions and new dexs on the assumption that no one remember what things looked like an edition ago or what they said . I mean who remember what JJ was saying about the use of special characters and the game ?

[Legatus]

yeah and how would you out it ?

 

Let me put it this way: When the new Codex was released I really considered to start an Iron Warriors force, since now they were not a "cheap" army anymore. I have always liked their theme and feel, and I already got a box of their models way back when they were released because I liked those too. In the end, time and money (or the lack thereof) prevented me from starting a third Chaos army. I play Chaos since 2nd Edition, started with Night Lord and Berserker Marines back then (though Chaos is not my only army). And as long as I keep playing 40K I will also keep playing Chaos, not because of any rules, but because I like their theme and feel.

So how do you think I see someone who stops playing Chaos just because he does not like the new rules anymore, or someone who starts using some other Marine Codex instead of the Codex Chaos? How "serious" is he about playing chaos, if those are reasons for him to abandon the army? Abandoning the army is the best way to show that they are in fact not at all serious chaos players. For them it was just a fad.

[Bloodstorm]

yeah and how would you out it ?

 

Let me put it this way: When the new Codex was released I really considered to start an Iron Warriors force, since now they were not a "cheap" army anymore. I have always liked their theme and feel, and I already got a box of their models way back when they were released because I liked those too. In the end, time and money (or the lack thereof) prevented me from starting a third Chaos army. I play Chaos since 2nd Edition, started with Night Lord and Berserker Marines back then (though Chaos is not my only army). And as long as I keep playing 40K I will also keep playing Chaos, not because of any rules, but because I like their theme and feel.

So how do you think I see someone who stops playing Chaos just because he does not like the new rules anymore, or someone who starts using some other Marine Codex instead of the Codex Chaos? How "serious" is he about playing chaos, if those are reasons for him to abandon the army? Abandoning the army is the best way to show that they are in fact not at all serious chaos players. For them it was just a fad.

 

It's just a little dirty. It's still good, it's still good… It's just a little slimy. It's still good, it's still good… It's just a little airborne. It's still good, it's still good…

 

So because you can swallow any GW change to Chaos with good humor then any others who feel agrived and lose the motivation to carry on because of a serious rule overture are then not serious chaos players? thats what you said is it not?

Well heres the news for you, thats only your opinion, nothing more.

 

Playing Chaos since 2nd edition means nothing, you say it like a badge of honor, and because you can turn the other cheek to what GW have done to the 'dex, then we all must or be labled "fad gamers"

Well your talking to another fad gamer here then mate, someone whos also played Chaos since 2nd edition, since 1994 actually and i left the hobby since the time of the new Chaos 'dexs arrival up until this month, solely because i believe the Chaos 'dex has taken a rather large backwards step, and judging by the general feedback GW seems to have gotten, im not the only one to have this opinion, and it really gets my back up to be labelled a "fad gamer", heres a notion, keep it to yourself what you consider to be a "serious chaos player" as its just your opinion.

[the jeske]

Abandoning the army is the best way to show that they are in fact not at all serious chaos players.

Well I disagree with you here . Sure players like me [in the game since the very start of 2ed] tend to ignore rules changes or power lvl . there is also one good army out of chaos [and 99% of the times it was a BL one] . But if someone played ..lets say AL , he liked the culitsist the all infiltration army , the fluff etc and the new codex pretty much forces him to play a BL list [DP =best hq . oblit =best hvy support . no cultists . 5th troops based so no sense in taking chosen units etc ] , then Its no wonder people stop playing chaos . The legion armies were very strong in the first place [save for the IW and the khorn BL] , if people could make their own armies and not 1 army with maybe 2/3 different army builds , it would have been different . See I like the fluff too [sort of a fluff nazi] , but I would like the army to be playable too . No fun in getting beaten all the time . Sure there are people like you who play their armies no matter what rules they have [but lets be frank zerker builds , the PM army or the IW style armies didnt lose a lot in the new dex ] , but your are hobbiests not gamers .

 

 

Besids how serious can you build a NL or AL army out of the dex we have right now without it being a weaker version of a BL list and please dont tell me its the way they are painted .

[Magnus Thane]

Just on a sidenote let us not use the term 'veteran gamers' or 'serious players' and the likes to defend either side shall we?

No 'side' in the debate can claim to represent them, not to mention such things are open to interpretation.

 

As for the debate i have given further thought to the matter and ironically (as is typical in such things) both sides make good points.

Old codex was fluffier, had more options. The new one is somewhat more balanced and still able to reflect the Legions.

The streamlining has good and bad points. Only thing i find bad is that GW suddenly stopped it with the Codex SM. Which makes streamlining contraproductive.

 

On the other hand some people do give me the impression that they're moving just because the SM's got shinier toys.

[Smurfalypse]

Yeah, ive been playing since 1995 the same chaos army..Word Bearers, nothing else ever, but i guess im just a fad player :) I have another post up about "hitting a wall"....The object of playing warhammer 40k is to first and formost have fun, if you arnt having fun with your codex move on to something else. Anyone who is willing to say that you shouldnt do X because you are a chaos player is full of crud and really needs to find some happyness in their lives. Do what you need/want to do to enjoy yourself with your friends.

 

Per usual The Jeske is exactly right about this. You can basically play one list in the current codex and its nothing but a black legion list give or take a few minor tweeks. If you go to tournament then you are basically playing the same list as every other chaos player there. This breeds bordom as people like to be different and like to base armies around fluff.

 

Do what you want/need to do to enjoy the hobby. No matter if you go and play at nothing but tournaments, this game is still a hobby. Cheers all.

[Tchort]

Per usual The Jeske is exactly right about this. You can basically play one list in the current codex and its nothing but a black legion list give or take a few minor tweeks. If you go to tournament then you are basically playing the same list as every other chaos player there. This breeds bordom as people like to be different and like to base armies around fluff.

 

They should have just called it Codex: Black Legion because that's all it is. And you're right if you're not having fun with something then send it out the door. Anyone, like Mr. Veteran up there, that says otherwise is just trying to push an agenda (ie, the current codex is fine and if you're not with us you're against us). The fact that Jervis confirms (for the moment) that Traitor Legions will be getting new rules is vindication for everyone who hates the new codex. They screwed up.

[chillin]

So how do you think I see someone who stops playing Chaos just because he does not like the new rules anymore, or someone who starts using some other Marine Codex instead of the Codex Chaos? How "serious" is he about playing chaos, if those are reasons for him to abandon the army? Abandoning the army is the best way to show that they are in fact not at all serious chaos players. For them it was just a fad.

 

Why should someone keep using a dex that they are bored to death with or that they feel doesn't represent their army ??

So they can fit your defination of a serious chaos player ?

But I've only been playing CSM's since 1998, what do I know, I'm a fad player :)

[Legatus]

So because you can swallow any GW change to Chaos with good humor then any others who feel agrived and lose the motivation to carry on because of a serious rule overture are then not serious chaos players? thats what you said is it not?

Well, that's basically what I am saying. It was the previously issued statement that "the more serious players" will stop playing if GW does not do something about the Codex. And that is simply an oxymoron. When there are players who keep playing chaos with the current codex, then the ones abandoning chaos do not seem to be the "more serious" in contrast to them. The "more serious" chaos players go, while the ones that keep playing chaos are not so serious? That does not match my idear of what a "serious player" is at all.

 

Playing Chaos since 2nd edition means nothing

No, sticking with the army because you like the style and fluff, even if the current iteration of its rules are not all that, that's what matters. I seem to not have gotten that accross very well. But I also assume that those who do consider to stop playing chaos are only too eager to find insult and flaw in my words.

 

heres a notion, keep it to yourself what you consider to be a "serious chaos player" as its just your opinion.

I was asked by jeske to elaborate, thank you. And it was the original statement of his, that "the more serious gamers" will drop out, which I just could not leave uncomented.

 

See I like the fluff too [sort of a fluff nazi] , but I would like the army to be playable too . No fun in getting beaten all the time . (...)

 

Besids how serious can you build a NL or AL army out of the dex we have right now without it being a weaker version of a BL list and please dont tell me its the way they are painted .

You must be doing something wrong. Or maybe I am only playing against morons. I think purely undivided works very well on its own.

 

Anyone, like Mr. Veteran up there, that says otherwise is just trying to push an agenda

Ah, my "agenda". "The Codex is fine". Brazenly disagreeing with the notion that the more serious players are the ones who stop playing because they are not happy with the codex. :D

 

Why should someone keep using a dex that they are bored to death with or that they feel doesn't represent their army ??

So they can fit your defination of a serious chaos player ?

No. If you don't like chaos, don't play chaos. But don't go claiming that it is the serious players who drop out and diss the current codex chaos, while those who keep playing are not. Because I oppose that idear I am appearently now labeled as being the arrogant jerk in this case, which is odd, as it was exactly the arrogance of the original statement that made me reply in the first place. :)

[Dammeron]

Another fad player here; been playing since 1992. Only have FIVE seperate chaos armies (Death Guard, Emperors Children, Thousand Sons, Night Lords, Word Bearers) to speak of, all models pain-stakingly converted to make them unique and itneresting character pieces and with detailed backgrounds and copious amounts of fan fiction written on each army. Just a passing fad, you know? That's why I don't use the new codex, and refuse to buy another GW product until they provide me with an army list that I feel someone has actually taken some time to think about; because I really don't care that much. Obviously.

[Legatus]

That's why I don't use the new codex, and refuse to buy another GW product until they provide me with an army list that I feel someone has actually taken some time to think about; because I really don't care that much. Obviously.

So, you are not currently playing chaos space marines. Over there is joe, who also played for some years, and continues to play with the current codex. Are you the more serious player than him?

[Smurfalypse]

Playing Chaos since 2nd edition means nothing

 

No, sticking with the army because you like the style and fluff, even if the current iteration of its rules are not all that, that's what matters. I seem to not have gotten that accross very well.

 

Thats the problem though exactly...There is no more fluff, the word bearers have a SINGLE picture in the codex, one single model with a banner and underneath it just says "word bearer icon bearer" or something like that. If you notice as well, when it lists ALL the little legions and groups it doenst even have the word bearers there. So the idea of sticking with chaos for the fluff kinda went out the window when they decided to dump all the fluff dating back from second edition to the current codex.

 

Lets just be happy and have some fun. I think im gonna throw together an ork army so i can goof off in the meantime, until something comes along that tickles my fancy. The new marine dex seems like a blast, but i apsolutely hate them so :)

[chillin]

No. If you don't like chaos, don't play chaos. But don't go claiming that it is the serious players who drop out and diss the current codex chaos, while those who keep playing are not. Because I oppose that idear I am appearently now labeled as being the arrogant jerk in this case, which is odd, as it was exactly the arrogance of the original statement that made me reply in the first place. :lol:

 

OK, I see your point alittle be more now. It is kinda backwards to say that the serious chaos players are the ones dumping the chaos dex and the nonserious players are the only ones who are using it. But I don't think that is what the OP ment (but to tell the truth, I'm too lazy to go back and actually read it :D ). At the same time I have to strongly disagree that anyone who is bored or dissatified w/ csm's 4.0 and may be looking for other options whether is be represnting undivided csm using another power armor dex or building a new army to try something new, is not a serious chaos player. And obviously alot of other long time chaos players feel the same way.

[Legatus]

Thats the problem though exactly...There is no more fluff, the word bearers have a SINGLE picture in the codex, one single model with a banner and underneath it just says "word bearer icon bearer" or something like that. If you notice as well, when it lists ALL the little legions and groups it doenst even have the word bearers there. So the idea of sticking with chaos for the fluff kinda went out the window when they decided to dump all the fluff dating back from second edition to the current codex.

But the fluff isn't gone. They are just not repating it to you. You should still have all the Word Bearer fluff you want. But that does make it hart for new players to get behind any of the 9 legioins.

 

I think im gonna throw together an ork army so i can goof off in the meantime, until something comes along that tickles my fancy.

You do that. Orks are fun. And it will make you appreciate 3+ power armour again. :lol: 3+ power armou AND boltun AND boltpistol with ccw.

 

At the same time I have to strongly disagree that anyone who is bored or dissatified w/ csm's 4.0 and may be looking for other options whether is be represnting undivided csm using another power armor dex or building a new army to try something new, is not a serious chaos player. And obviously alot of other long time chaos players feel the same way.

To be honest, in the past few years there were moments when I was a bit burned out with GW, either because I had not the time, not the money, or personal issues kept bothering me. During those times, when GW was making design choices I did not like that much (and there were a few) I sometimes felt that perhaps it was time to quit. In the end I never actually did... unfortunately. Point being, if anyone quits 40K (or "just" chaos) because he is not satisfied I do not blame him.

 

But while I miss a few of the options from the last codex, am not all that happy with the icon system, and would of course like to see a few extra legion specific traits, overall I like playing with the current Codex. Though I am more focusing on my Night Lords currently, perhaps I would feel the downsides more when I was currently playing World Eaters more actively. Though I was also a bit excited about the idear of a flamer heavy World Eaters devastator squad.

But assembling an army is simple, units are powerful, without the need for bells and whistles, and the opponent can hardly complain about cheesy items or units. The furies in the last codex were nice, but I actually like the current "simple" daemons as well. They are often underestimated, though my regular gaming buddy has come to despise them. :D