What good are lesser daemons?

[Artemis360]

I started nurgle recently and I totally love 'em. Not only that but I'm surprised just how effective normal chaos space marines are with their CCW and bolt pistol etc. So my question is this: what the hell are lesser daemons for? They look rubbish. I've heard of this 'daemon' bombing and I can imagine it must be nasty having a bunch of them pop up where you dont expect them but still, theyve got no power weapons/fists, 5+ save and while not massively expensive, theyre far from dirt cheap. Definitely not a throw away unit. What are they for?! Thanks to all replies.

[Brother Nihm]

I didnt mention the daemons earlier because of the no limits on them. These fellas are tragedies waiting to happen. No scatter, fearless, and Inv saves. Often ignored in combat so people can kill your zerkers/terminators, with MEQ stats all around. They can be small units of 5, costing as much as a scout (that does more then a scout in melee), so its our version of scouts that deep strike for melee purposes basicly. People hate it when 1 rhino runs around, summoning many packs of 5 just to tie up all their units and ruin the element they really aim for. When you summon, then deploy, rapid fire, then have 5 daemons assault so you can get back in and run off, odds are they will win after you charge what you shot. Since 16 bolter, and 4 plasma shots can often render a unit of 8 down to 4 or less, 5 daemons charging with 15 attacks can finish them off in a phase or two. (Hit and run strategy!) A little tip on summoning. Only the first model you place down has to be within the 6" of the icon, the larger the unit the more 'rings' of them you have around, means more inches your closer to charge the enemy! A pack of 20 could easily ring around for an additional 3 inches from the original model, making that so called 6" charge seemingly a 9" charge! 6" from Icon + 6" from charge is like a normal unit moves anyways, so its no big loss, its more tactical this way and more fair considering the very powerful daemonbombing options we've got now. We need a cheap inv save unit to fend off armor ignoring melee, especially for being cheaper and fearless. Use them how you want, all I've had with them is success.

[Smurfalypse]

Probably our best all around scoring unit when it comes to objective taking/holding. They are cheaper than normal marines, can be brought on the table from reserves via summoning, can be taking in units of 5 for a whopping 65pts, get in the way, and have the ability to always be where your opponent doesnt want them to be. I use them frequently and the higher the game points go, the more i use.

[Legatus]

I like to use a unit of 10 demons to support my assault elements. For 130 points they are quite good when piled on to whatever a unit of Chaos marines is assaulting. They have also performed well enough when on their own. 30 attacks on the charge are nothing to scoff at. And even if they are simply tieing up an enemy monstrous creature or dreadnought that is usually a useful help.

[40kChrista]

i use 3 units of 8 lesser demons, and so far they have taken objectives and tied up more expensive units to effectively neutralize them(i.e. termies, greater demons, Typhus, etc...), provide cover saves for my Marines, and reinforced the assault line. i think they are great all purpose troops.

 

Grim

[chillin]

I use them too in my more assaulty armies. 30 str 4, int 4 attacks that come outta nowhere, that can really mess your opponent up. And they're fearless so once there in you opponent has to kill them all. Thet're great for tieing up units you don't want shooting at your csm's like fire warriors. A 130 pt unit of 10 daemons can keep a unit of 20 fire warriors tied up the whole game. That's 40 str 5 shots that would be killing your csm's. I also sometimes use them as a bodyguard for my T'sons, keeping my T'sons outta CC so they can fire their ap 3 bolters.

Unlike the chaos lords handbook artical, I like mine in units of 8-10, more attacks, more staying power.

Used well they can definately help out.

[Artemis360]

Thanks a lot for replies, but I just gotta say; firewarriors come in squads of 12 max and to have 2 shots each every turn they'd have to be within 12 inches for rapid fire... so unless they wiped those marines out, they wouldnt survive long come the enemy's assault phase. But yeah, I see your point. Something that also occured to me after I made this thread is this: Plague marines (the basis for my army) are expensive and also get murdered by ap2, high strength weapons, so lesser demons with their much cheaper cost and invulnerable saves would make the perfect screen, especially for PMs who have to face tons of plasma and melta all the time against opponents who tailor their lists. I guess you guys know that, but its worth saying...

[aioannou]

thats the point though.

 

you wouldn't sit more than 12 inches away and then summon daemons because you are throwing away a scoring unit.

 

and thats an important thing in 5thE.

 

i really fancy having 3 5-7 daemon units but i dont think it would be all that FLUFFY for my Night Lords.

 

Any suggestions on how i could fluff it? i was thinking if i possibly used some hounds from WHFB and mixed them with some bats i would say they are from the bits of the darkness coming to reap the fallen's souls..... but i am unsure.

 

Any advice Nihm? you are resident night lord extraordinaire

[chillin]

, but I just gotta say; firewarriors come in squads of 12 max and to have 2 shots each every turn they'd have to be within 12 inches for rapid fire...

-

The tau player in our group has used units of 20 firewarriors twice now, that I know of.

Me thinks we'll have to have a chat the next time he comes around for a game.

The guy seems to "misunderstand" things to his advantage quite a bit (like how many weops a crisis suit can carry and fire) :yes:

-

That aside even 24 str 5 shots can kill alot of marines. And the daemons can have a much longer assault range the the csm's in the rino. 12" rino move + 6" summon from icon + 2" placement of daemon pack + 6" assault = 26" assault. csm max assault range usually 12" as they can't assault out of a moving rino.

[jamjar]

Night lords do use daemons they just dont worship them. theres that story in the dex where they murder half a planet and them summon a bunch of daemons to finish it off.

 

Lesser daemons are very useful under new edition just be careful with small units in annihilation. easy KP.

[Artemis360]

The tau player in our group has used units of 20 firewarriors twice now, that I know of.

Me thinks we'll have to have a chat the next time he comes around for a game.

The guy seems to "misunderstand" things to his advantage quite a bit (like how many weops a crisis suit can carry and fire) :lol:

-

That aside even 24 str 5 shots can kill alot of marines. And the daemons can have a much longer assault range the the csm's in the rino. 12" rino move + 6" summon from icon + 2" placement of daemon pack + 6" assault = 26" assault. csm max assault range usually 12" as they can't assault out of a moving rino.

 

Oh dear... Well, I play Tau too so if you have any worries, just send me a PM and I'll tell you if what he's doing is legal.

 

Anyway, this brings up another interesting question. I thought deepstriking had to be done before all other normal movement. But you seem to be suggesting otherwise. Can you really move your daemon bombing unit of bikers or squad in rhino 12 inches and THEN deepstrike the daemons to that new location, all in the same turn? Don't you have to have moved there last turn and thereby waste a whole turn sitting in some precarious spot? Thats one thing that made me concerned about daemons but if it isnt true then I may have no choice but to get some.

[chillin]

No of course you are right. I wrote that in a rush before getting back to work, don't know what I was thinking, trying to do too many things at once.

As you said the rino has to have moved the 12" in the turn before. Then the Daemons are summened w/ in 6", 2" or so for placement, then a 6" assault. The csm's can then disembark, move, rapid fire or assault or stay in rino for 12" movement. But you don't "waste" a turn sitting in some precarous spot. the rino can move off as normal or do whatever it was going to do.

[Brother Nihm]

i really fancy having 3 5-7 daemon units but i dont think it would be all that FLUFFY for my Night Lords.

 

Any suggestions on how i could fluff it? i was thinking if i possibly used some hounds from WHFB and mixed them with some bats i would say they are from the bits of the darkness coming to reap the fallen's souls..... but i am unsure.

Night lords do use daemons they just dont worship them. theres that story in the dex where they murder half a planet and them summon a bunch of daemons to finish it off.

Jamjar is right.

 

Apart from the new fluff in the Codex that Jamjar mentioned, I've included another official reference below - where the Night Lords have utilized Daemons.

 

 

 

Codex Battlezone: Cityfight, White Dwarf #261

The Khai-zan Uprising. Led by Night lords Chaos Space marines, traitor PDF and numerous cultist uprisings, an attack is launched on a public holiday. With over half of the Planetary Defence Force on leave, the Agri World finds itself quickly beset on all sides by the forces of Chaos. The cultists utilize summoned daemons but, due to the distance from the Eye of Terror and lack of devotion from the Night lords, the actual number of summonings are very small.

 

 

As for ideas for including them and justify them via models, I really like your 'darkness' idea.

Another one could be to draw on the events during the Khai-zan uprising and have some of your daemon packs modelled as cultists with icons (just for the visual effect of course), and other packs as the daemons themselves.

[Penmarch']

Lesser daemons are ideally suited as a 'blocking' unit.

After summoning get them in HTH as soon as possible with an threathening unit.

Some time ago I was handed my a... by an Ork payer who fielded 2 units of 15 Lootas. Immense firepower. Enough to wipe out a 6 man Havoc team, two dreadnoughts and a Rhino (complete with half a tactical squad) in one turn.

Since then I use my daemons to 'block' his Lootas since he can't ignore a group of 5 Daemons charging his 15 Orks.

They might even decimate the HW. Orks if you're lucky.

[aioannou]

yeah.

im thinking of running 3 5-8 man packs of hounds/deamons.

 

all my NL are rhino mounted so im thinking.

 

summon within 6 inches of rhino, disembark troops, daemons move forward, troops shoot, both assault.

 

then iff possible move rhino round back of units to stop fleeing and also to block LOS incase they get caught in open.

[Penmarch']

Turbo- boosting bikes are your best friend....

[Dammeron]

Well, in purely mechanical terms they are very mobile and quite resilient scoring units.

 

But they are so dull, dull, dull under the current codex I see absolutely no point in taking them in my own force.

[Penmarch']

Sorry Dammeron, my bad.

I meant as icon carrying speeders for summoning.

[Artemis360]

Well, I tried them today, was like this...

 

Sorcerer, MoN, warptime, Terminator armour

 

7x Plague Marines, melta, plasma, champ, powerfist

 

7x Plague Marines, melta, plasma, champ, powerfist, rhino

 

Dreadnaut, TLLC

 

7x lesser daemons

 

7x lesser daemons

 

7x lesser daemons

 

I don't need any comments on the rest of the list. It was a weird 2 v 2 battle and my ally used up more than his share of the points and plus Im still building my army so I was short on armour. But anyway, I used the daemons. 2 squads came in on turn two along with my sorc who used 1 squad as bodyguards. The first squad charged the only squad in range: Wraithguard... Not the best of targets. They didn't drop a single wraithguard, needing 6s to wound but did tie them up for the following turn before they were finished off. The other squad faired better. Whethering a few shots from some Tau crisis suits and eldar shizzle. They, along with my sorc, charged the tau commander and his retinue, only managing to drop two drones and one bodyguard but he failed his leadership and we cut them down. There were a few more combats while squad 3 captured an objective and sat on it. Finally squad 3 was cut down in the very last turn by stealth suit fire and then charged by the suits who outnumbered them 3 to 1 and got killed by them. The highlight for the daemons was a lone daemon charging 12 firewarriors who were sitting on an objective, killing 3 and routing the rest.

 

All in all, not massively impressed by daemons. My opponent was fairly noobish in that I got into combat easily and even against the ideal CC opponents, Tau, the daemons still just did fairly ok. I'll give it a few more tries before I make my mind up about them though.

[Nekron99]

The highlight for the daemons was a lone daemon charging 12 firewarriors who were sitting on an objective, killing 3 and routing the rest.

 

Awesome

[Smurfalypse]

The highlight for the daemons was a lone daemon charging 12 firewarriors who were sitting on an objective, killing 3 and routing the rest.

 

Awesome

 

LOL that is fairly awesome....I tend not to use the daemons as the main force, more to just support what is already there. As chillen and others have mentioned, they are great when thrown into a combat with CSMs or other units of the like, and they basically help swing the fight you might otherwise lose to your favor quickly. There isnt much people can do about staying out of combat with them its not like they have a choice unless they stay 13 or so inches from your units/vehicles at all times.

[Brother Gothard]

As for ideas for including them and justify them via models, I really like your 'darkness' idea.

Another one could be to draw on the events during the Khai-zan uprising and have some of your daemon packs modelled as cultists with icons (just for the visual effect of course), and other packs as the daemons themselves.

The Night Lords are masters of instilling fear and terror in their enemy. It seems to me that the entry for Lesser Daemons is the perfect chance for the avatars of smaller Chaos Gods to make an entry onto the battlefield. The god of Fear, for example, drawn by the terror of your enemies, opens a rift near a concentration of especially terrified individuals through which a swarm of hellish bats pours through.

 

THAT is cool.

[northoceanbeach]

I may be alone but I only think they are OK at best.

 

They are two points less than a regular marine without:

bolter, bolt pistol, any gun or close combat weapon options, a 3+ armour save. When you say it like that,l seems they should be about 10 points.

 

Yes they can ds and assault, but that is assuming at whatever random time they come in, you have an icon to summon within 6" of the enemy you want them to attack.

 

And I feel dirty using like daemonettes or plaguebearers or whatever with all the same stat. I used to have 12 mounted damonettes, what am I going to do, aha, here are 30 strength for attacks on the charge.

 

Who are they good against? I think guard could probably beat them. A surprise attack is only good when it is scary. 2 strength four attacks that hit on fours and don't ignore armour are not scary.

[Bloodstorm]

Their somewhat ok, 1/10,000 of the the awesomeness the once were, daemon bombing ftw, bloodletters all with hellblades, daemonettes all with rending, flamers chucking out stupid amounts of firepower, compared to this garbage base statline we now have.

The best use ive found for them now is to tie up powerful units or a hq choice because of their inv save, why chaos marine armys arent allowed to use chaos daemons is still inexplicable.