5th Ed Questions

[WolfLordLars]

Ok, got a few questions about 5th ed. Not sure if this is the right forum, so if not, please let me know which one is. Some are general rules, some are SW specific. I try to list page numbers with it per the 5th ed rulebook.

 

1 - (p11) - Can you measure to move, then not move so you can shoot? It reads like you can, but that (to me) sounds like a cheesy way to measure range without actually declaring a target.

 

2 - (p22) - I dont really understand how you can shoot through area terrain? If you can see a model on the other side, you can shoot it? It still gets cover, but its legal to shoot through area terrain if you can see it? So, if you have a base with trees, and those trees were to mask a model, you cant shoot that model? If you used the old 'felt trees' (a hunk of felt in the shape of the area of the trees) you could shoot anything through it, they would just have cover?

 

3 - (p22-23) - Units partially in cover makes no sense to me at all. Old rules, if you could only see 2 models with the unit, you could only shoot/kill those 2 models. Now, the whole unit is legal, but if more than half are covered the whole unit gets the cover save?

 

4 - (p30) - The process for blast is to place it, measure to see if its in range, then to roll for scatter? Like 3rd ed, more or less.

 

5 - (p31) - Rending vs vehicle. Weapon damage, + roll of 6, then you can roll a d3 for more damage? How do you do that.. 1-2 = 1, 3-4=2, 5-6=3?

 

6 - (p40) - Old rules, if you had no touching models (thus, not engaged) you could not sweeping advance. Is that still the case? I cant tell. It was a common tactic for the guy who went last and who would probably loose to take all of his models out of contact so that you cant sweeping advance. Did notice that you cant sweeping advance into combat with another unit.. thats both good and bad.

 

7 - (p49) - IC's can be targets if they are seen? They removed the "Cant shoot at them if another unit is closer" rule?

 

8 - (p53) - Jetbikes cant stop on top of terrain anymore? Used to be, hover units (jetbikes, skimmers, etc) could fly 'over' area terrain. I didnt see that.

 

9 - (p63) - Assaulting skimmers is based on speed now? So, a skimmer that doesnt move isnt 6 to hit anymore? (if so, they REALLY hate Land Speeders this edition)

 

10 - (p66-67) - When embarking or disembarking, as long as a portion of the base is within the 2" its ok? Even a tiny portion is enough to get in or out?

 

11 - Bikes - They assault 6", right? It specifies for infantry, jump infantry, walkers, and cavalry (who move 12") but doesnt say so with bikes. We said 6" based on previous editions.

 

12 - Counter-Attack - What Wolf models get counter-attack? The way I read it, all SW models with a WS, minus Long Fangs. So, would bikes or a Venerable Dread?

 

13 - Terminators w/2CCW - Would a Wolf Guard with a Power Weapon and a Combi-weapon get the +1 attack for 2 CCWs? How about a PW and Bolter?

 

 

Thanks in advance!

[Dark Bjoern]

1) Yes, you can measure your moving range. But you´re not allowed to use this to measure the distance to a opponent´s unit.

 

2) Yes, you can now shoot through terrain, but your opponent get´s a cover save.

 

3) Exactly.

 

4) Yes, you through for scatter but minus the BF. I love this new rule.

 

5) Exacly that way.

 

6) You got it right.

 

7) As long as the IC is not attached to a unit you can target him

 

8) Yes, they can stop at terrain as long as you can place it on top, but you have to test for difficult terrain.

 

9) Again right, but i would not say that they hate skimmers.

 

10) Yup.

 

11) I´m not sure

 

12) Interesting question. I think the bikes yes, but the ven dread no. He´s not really a living SM.

[WolfLordLars]

1 - I dont see how you can do one but not the other. You can measure to your opponent 6", then, seeing your well out of assault range, decline to move and instead fire at 24" (for a bolter that doesnt move)? Old rules, if you measured, you counted as moving.. just like difficult terrain, if you roll, you moved. The way the rules read, I can measure, then decline to move and count as not moving?

 

6 - If they remove all of their base contact models, I cant sweeping advance? Nothing in sweeping advances (p40) says that you must be locked to sweeping advance, simply that you win combat. So, I got the part right that they took that rule out?

 

7 - Ouch.. ok, so no lone IC's running around then.

 

9 - You kidding me? Land Speeders lost the ability to shoot the HB/AC if they move more than 6", no longer has the 'skimmer moving fast - pen into glance' rule, etc. They hate speeders.

 

Think you got 11-12 mixed up. :(

 

I wasnt sure about the Ven Dread. Seems cheesy, but at the same time, when they made the rules there was no way for a Ven Dread to take advantage of it. Afterall, he was already in contact, no way to move 6" forward. He IS a living wolf, technically. I will say no, personally, since Long Fangs dont, and he would be older than a LF.

 

 

Thanks!

[Dark Bjoern]

1 - I dont see how you can do one but not the other. You can measure to your opponent 6", then, seeing your well out of assault range, decline to move and instead fire at 24" (for a bolter that doesnt move)? Old rules, if you measured, you counted as moving.. just like difficult terrain, if you roll, you moved. The way the rules read, I can measure, then decline to move and count as not moving?

 

9 - You kidding me? Land Speeders lost the ability to shoot the HB/AC if they move more than 6", no longer has the 'skimmer moving fast - pen into glance' rule, etc. They hate speeders.

 

Think you got 11-12 mixed up. :P

 

I wasnt sure about the Ven Dread. Seems cheesy, but at the same time, when they made the rules there was no way for a Ven Dread to take advantage of it. Afterall, he was already in contact, no way to move 6" forward. He IS a living wolf, technically. I will say no, personally, since Long Fangs dont, and he would be older than a LF.

 

 

Thanks!

You are allowed to measure the 6"(12") from the bases of the unit you want to move. But normally your target is farer away then 6". You can estimate the remaining distance, but you´re not allowed to measure it until you´re in the shooting or CC phase.

 

I´m using Land Speeders all times. And i´m still happy with them.

 

Ah, right. I mixed 11 and 12 up.

[Wolf89]

12 - Counter-Attack - What Wolf models get counter-attack? The way I read it, all SW models with a WS, minus Long Fangs. So, would bikes or a Venerable Dread?

 

13 - Terminators w/2CCW - Would a Wolf Guard with a Power Weapon and a Combi-weapon get the +1 attack for 2 CCWs? How about a PW and Bolter?

 

 

Thanks in advance!

 

12- It says unengaged Space Wolf and Fenrisian Wolf models, not something like a Venerable dread, but this is still questionable I think, I haven't really looked into it and had a chance to. I've always either gotten blown up before a HtH with my dread could take place, or he charges (not many things want to get into combat with it. :P

 

13- you get the 2 CCW's but not in the turn you charge (via true grit rule) but yes, true grit goes back to our codex so combi-weapon flies now! ;)

[Max_Dammit]

12- It says unengaged Space Wolf and Fenrisian Wolf models,

 

Yeah but we take the rule out of the BBB and there is nothing about unengaged in that rule, so it could be used for a dread, after all he is a spacewolve :P

[Spacefrisian]

I think the Dread has it as well but their is the Ld thing which he doesn't have. this calls for an Errata.

[Max_Dammit]

I think the Dread has it as well but their is the Ld thing which he doesn't have.

Your right, didnt think of that, so i guess no

 

this calls for an Errata.

Wahahaahahahhaaaa, best thing i heard all day, an errata to clear things up, how do you come up with funny things like this. ;)

[Wolf89]

this calls for an Errata.

Wahahaahahahhaaaa, best thing i heard all day, an errata to clear things up, how do you come up with funny things like this. :tu:

 

Funny man... funny man :P

 

Yea, the whole Ld thing came to mind a bit ago, not when I was posting :pinch: but that works too :sweat:

[WolfLordLars]

It says that vehicle crews automatically pass ALL leadership tests, having absolute faith in their war machine. This seems like it would apply to dreads as well.

 

Honestly, its a bit too much cheese for me, but it did come up. I would like to hear what GW has to say, so I might give the rulez boyz a call.. ugh...

 

On the one hand, it says space wolf models. If it can enter CC, and its a wolf, it should get it. On the other, if Long Fangs are too old for that sort of thing... a Ven Dread? BUT, a Dread is built for CC and revels in it. My personal opinion would be yes, but I can see how others might disagree.

 

 

Glad Combis work with True Grit again.

 

 

It still a bit... well... doesnt seem right to measure 6", realize (based on that) that you cant reach a charge, and then to count as not moving to shoot 24". But, thems the rules.

[WolfLordLars]

Ok, per the Rulez Boyz (spoke with "Sanchez" who I have spoken to years ago, pretty solid guy) this is legit. The old counter-charge/counter-attack rules were movement based. In 3rd and 4th ed, the Dread could not counter-charge... he was already engaged. In 5th, its all about that +1 attack. Since the Dread passes all leadership tests, he will get the +1 attack on a counter-attack automatically.

 

I said it seemed kinda off, but wanted to see what they had to say. He said that by the rules as written, this is how it works.

 

There you go, first week back and I am already breaking 5th ed for the wolves.. :D

[Wolf89]

Daddy daddy, buy me more Dreads!

 

Nothing that overpowering, but a little bit of an edge none the less (nothing going and winning games but maybe kill an extra nob or something).

 

I might still use ven. dread HQ, and 2-3 dread elites if I decide to start using up my heavy options on things other than long fangs.

 

Either way, thanks for getting that cleared up. :D

[WolfLordLars]

I think my tanks are going to be replaced with dreads. More Terminators as well.

 

Your right, its not game breaking... and it shouldnt come up very often either. Afterall, if YOU are charging the dread, you must have a reason for it. This might make you think twice about it.

 

Now, something I read in the SW Errata is:

 

"Space Wolf Vehicles: Use the point costs and rules from Codex: Space Marines for Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Whirlwinds, Predators, Land Raiders, and Vindicators. All of the different variants and options available to these units in a Space Marine army are also available to the Space Wolves. The exception to this is the Venerable Dreadnoughts, which must be chosen from the Space Wolves army list (as detailed on page 7), and not the Space Marines army list."

 

I got a peek at the new SM codex this weekend at a local store. They have some new dreads in there (Ironclad), and a new Land Raider? Anyway, we get access to ALL of that. A new SM codex is finally a good thing!

[Wolf89]

yep, great stuff in the new codex... as well as 3+ invulnerables against shooting and HtH with stormshields now... so my WGBG in TDA will have one or two in each squad now... -_-

 

The variant LR (redeemer) isn't anything THAT amazing, 12 passengers (crusader is still top pick for us wolves for masses of bloodclaws and our HQ's even some wolves if you like! :) ) you won't be getting much use out of the weapons until turn 3 when you can be right in the enemy's face to use flamer templates. I'm just not sold on it... yet...

 

The Ironclad is an interesting piece of work, the ability to have hurricane bolters, move through cover, Ironclad assault launchers, and some other goodies... one thing in particular to note that is unique to only this vehicle, is the ability to have 2, count them 2 hunter killer missiles... ;)

[Thylacine]

Jumping in late, OZ is +10 hours GMT.

 

"12 - Counter-Attack - What Wolf models get counter-attack? The way I read it, all SW models with a WS, minus Long Fangs. So, would bikes or a Venerable Dread? "

 

In the codex p4 under SPECIAL RULES, "The following special rules apply to a Space Wolves army:" The Venerable Dreadnought or any SW Dreadnought will get the chance to roll for the +1 Counter-Attack bonus as described in the USR's because C-A applies to the army. Dreads, bikes and Thralls all have a Weapon Skill, are a part of the army and have a Weapons Skill so they will get the bonus, remember you still have to roll for it!

 

It seems that people see the C-A rule listed in the USR's and then want to use the wording in the Codex, this is wrong, the title is in the codex, so we have access to the rule in the USR's. The FAQ tells your to ignore the wording in the codex and use the rule as written in the USR's, clearly a lot of people are not doing this!.

 

"13 - Terminators w/2CCW - Would a Wolf Guard with a Power Weapon and a Combi-weapon get the +1 attack for 2 CCWs? How about a PW and Bolter? " Yes as written in the SW Codex and when assaulted has the bonus as above.

 

Once again the SW's are a decent HtH army and are almost worth taking to a tournament.

[Thylacine]

"I think my tanks are going to be replaced with dreads. More Terminators as well." Ours are still more expensive than SME so your giving away points!

 

"Your right, its not game breaking... and it shouldnt come up very often either. Afterall, if YOU are charging the dread, you must have a reason for it. This might make you think twice about it." Our most loud-mouthed, pushy non-SW player down here has already attempted to blank out this rule declaring SW's, by his reckoning have only '1' attack back if charged! I can see an argument at every tournament!

 

"Now, something I read in the SW Errata is:

 

"Space Wolf Vehicles: Use the point costs and rules from Codex: Space Marines for Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Whirlwinds, Predators, Land Raiders, and Vindicators. All of the different variants and options available to these units in a Space Marine army are also available to the Space Wolves. The exception to this is the Venerable Dreadnoughts, which must be chosen from the Space Wolves army list (as detailed on page 7), and not the Space Marines army list."

 

I got a peek at the new SM codex this weekend at a local store. They have some new dreads in there (Ironclad), and a new Land Raider? Anyway, we get access to ALL of that. A new SM codex is finally a good thing!"

 

I think it was somewhat negative, we pay more for Vindicators and Whirlwinds now, previously their price was kept low for SW's because we had no heavy/ranged weapons in our packs. We still pay too much for the Venerable Dreadnoughts (HQ) weapons, I don't know why as we pay for its upgrades in the price of the dread, the weapons are exactly the same as those on SME dreads! The jury is still out on availability as a new FAQ could change that overnight, but until then make the most of it while you can.

 

Thylacine.

[Ullr Direfang]

aaaahhhh, with all this new info, i am starting to wonder if i want to bring my wolves to the 'ard boyz over my IG. to many choices to make.

[WolfLordLars]

"I think my tanks are going to be replaced with dreads. More Terminators as well." Ours are still more expensive than SME so your giving away points!

 

Tanks seem to be less effective in 5th over 4th. Might cost more, but I can do more with them.

 

Our most loud-mouthed, pushy non-SW player down here has already attempted to blank out this rule declaring SW's, by his reckoning have only '1' attack back if charged! I can see an argument at every tournament!

 

*shrug* Rulez are the rulez. I get more attacks on the counter-attack than I do on the charge with my IC's now. Gotta love those wolf-pelts.

 

I think it was somewhat negative, we pay more for Vindicators and Whirlwinds now, previously their price was kept low for SW's because we had no heavy/ranged weapons in our packs. We still pay too much for the Venerable Dreadnoughts (HQ) weapons, I don't know why as we pay for its upgrades in the price of the dread, the weapons are exactly the same as those on SME dreads! The jury is still out on availability as a new FAQ could change that overnight, but until then make the most of it while you can.

 

Uhh.. not sure that I follow you there. We pay whats in the SM codex for those (Vindicators and Whirlwinds). So, if they change in the SM codex, they change for us.

 

I just like that now we have access to all of the goodies that the SM players do. Wasnt so with 4th ed.

[OnlyInDeath]

A quick note on your sweeping advance question: ALL models in a unit in combat are considered to be in combat, and can therefore be removed (so models more than 2" away can be removed as casualties). It could therefore be argued that it doesnt matter if the unit ends up "engaged" or base to base with the opposing unit, as the unit is involved in close combat as a whole.

Also, sweeping advance is a bit different now. CC is resolved purely upon the wounds scored, nothing else. If I win a CC, the enemy can break and I would automatically make my D6" consolidation move (after I catch them if I manage to). If I lose combat, everyone just piles in up to 6" on both sides. Either way, the old rules of either a massacre or sweeping advance move after combat has been changed as you now just make a D6" move regarless of if the opponent got a way or not. Seeing as you cant use sweeping advance to just plow into another unit, the best use of this is to try and get into some cover so as to not get the crap shot out of you...

[WolfLordLars]

Yea, thats how I read the sweeping advance too (no longer need base contact), I just wanted to be sure.

 

If you win, they roll to break. If they brake, you roll Int + 1d6 to overrun. If you catch them, unit destroyed, you move d6". If you dont, they run however far they rolled (or is it 2d6"?) and you move d6".

 

I am agreeing with you about the moving for cover. If you cant try to move into CC anymore, cover is your friend. But, only if its better than your regular armor save (not often with marines) or your facing low AP weapons. My friend today spent most of the game trying to get his orks into cover, while my wolves walked out in the open with no worries.

[Thylacine]

I think it was somewhat negative, we pay more for Vindicators and Whirlwinds now, previously their price was kept low for SW's because we had no heavy/ranged weapons in our packs. We still pay too much for the Venerable Dreadnoughts (HQ) weapons, I don't know why as we pay for its upgrades in the price of the dread, the weapons are exactly the same as those on SME dreads! The jury is still out on availability as a new FAQ could change that overnight, but until then make the most of it while you can.

 

"Uhh.. not sure that I follow you there. We pay whats in the SM codex for those (Vindicators and Whirlwinds). So, if they change in the SM codex, they change for us."

 

I know that some people were using the higher prices in the 4th ed SM Codex for Whirlwinds and Vindicators, but they should have been using the prices in the SW codex. The prices were formally set in the SW codex the only details we needed to obtain from the SM Codex were things like ammunition (Castellan mines), upgrades (repair on Rhinos) and some rule changes.

 

To do otherwise is to leave the codex system open to abuse, as soon as a new codex for a marine chapter comes out some players like to take that as setting precedent but it is not the case. The information in a codex is specific to that particular chapter. There are a few items that SW's have at a lower price, I have been told by TO's that this is wrong and I should pay the same price as in the SM codex. My reply was something like 'do I use the lower prices on Techmarines or Terminators', he soon shut up.

 

Thylacine

[Wolf89]

I think it was somewhat negative, we pay more for Vindicators and Whirlwinds now, previously their price was kept low for SW's because we had no heavy/ranged weapons in our packs. We still pay too much for the Venerable Dreadnoughts (HQ) weapons, I don't know why as we pay for its upgrades in the price of the dread, the weapons are exactly the same as those on SME dreads! The jury is still out on availability as a new FAQ could change that overnight, but until then make the most of it while you can.

 

"Uhh.. not sure that I follow you there. We pay whats in the SM codex for those (Vindicators and Whirlwinds). So, if they change in the SM codex, they change for us."

 

I know that some people were using the higher prices in the 4th ed SM Codex for Whirlwinds and Vindicators, but they should have been using the prices in the SW codex. The prices were formally set in the SW codex the only details we needed to obtain from the SM Codex were things like ammunition (Castellan mines), upgrades (repair on Rhinos) and some rule changes.

 

To do otherwise is to leave the codex system open to abuse, as soon as a new codex for a marine chapter comes out some players like to take that as setting precedent but it is not the case. The information in a codex is specific to that particular chapter. There are a few items that SW's have at a lower price, I have been told by TO's that this is wrong and I should pay the same price as in the SM codex. My reply was something like 'do I use the lower prices on Techmarines or Terminators', he soon shut up.

 

Thylacine

 

The prices on the tanks in the new SM codex are cheaper than now, (except for dreads) so our preds, and vindis will be MUCH cheaper (preds starting around 60 points!). The question is if we get to use the points for the rhinos and razorbacks (35-40 points) apposed to our dex of 50-70 points.

 

Also Thylacine, what's a TO? and why is he, she, it, saying we should pay the same price as in the SM codex? especially when we're so much more harder and get more abilities and gear. I can't imagine getting TDA wolf guard for 40 points, that would be amazing and I'd crap myself and fill up all 20 wolf guard slots on WGBG in TDA guarding my HQ's and still have points left over for a competitive army. I'm glad you made him, her, it, shut up with your comment. :D

 

To answer your post about using the points listed in SW codex for tanks and such is the fact that the FAQ's have always said use the SM codex for the points and such.

[the jeske]

TO = Tournament Organiser.

[Megalodon]

The prices on the tanks in the new SM codex are cheaper than now, (except for dreads) so our preds, and vindis will be MUCH cheaper (preds starting around 60 points!). The question is if we get to use the points for the rhinos and razorbacks (35-40 points) apposed to our dex of 50-70 points.

I sure hop they FAQ the Rhinos and Razorbacks, or they just won't be worth fielding.

[Vassakov]

Right, I spoke to a sales rep at work, he basically said speak to the design team and rulez boyz about SW v SM, because it's going to require one hell of an errata to fix this mess. On a different note, at a Tornuament I went to me and Wisey decided that the Ven Dread didn't get the +1A for Countercharge because the rule didn't make sense at the time. However having read the rules in more detail he probably does... yay. We're now offically broken. Also, if the current FAQ stands then we get all the new SM toys for Rhinos/RB's/Whirlies/Vindies etc but we WON'T get the new units such as the Ironclad and Redeemer, as they aren't in our Codex. The only exception to this so far is the Crusader.