Firing, area terrian and Cover...

[Cornishman]

I have a question that has been bugging:

When a firing over a piece terrain (e.g. a pile of rubble, not between two trees) assuming you can draw a clear line of sight to the entire body of the model (so excludes the base) the model is not obscured so grants no cover save (easy to do once you establish LOS)

 

However the one of the exceptions about LOS is about firing out of area terrain; ‘may fire through 2” of terrain without granting cover saves’ has been causing some contention;

 

Given the use of LOS and that there is no previous mention that firing out of area terrain grants a cover save (assuming a clear LOS) I interpret this as the firing model is able to ignore cover granted by the terrain if it would (by LOS) grant the target a cover save (this being the exception), and that no cover save is granted if the LOS to the target is un-obstructed (as thier is no mention of this previously);

Example 1. A model 1” into a wood may ignore the cover given by the bush between the firer and the target assuming there is (an obstructed) LOS between the two

Example 2. A model with a clear LOS out of area terrain (e.g. a wreck/ pile of rocks etc) but is more than 2” from the edge fires normally.

 

Others interpret this as any models firing more that 2” through the terrain; irrespective of LOS, grant a cover save.

 

I was just wondering what others player’s opinion on this matter is.

[WarpSpawn]

Firing through or into area terrain grants a cover save both ways, even if the model is clearly visible.

 

As far as I am aware, the only exception to this is if a unit is in the area terrain, firing out. In this case, up to 2" worth of the terrain is ignored for them firing out only. If they are more than 2" in, their target would get a cover save as normal, even if clearly visible.

 

This is covered in some detail on page 22 so I am unsure of the source of your confusion.

[Cornishman]

Firing through or into area terrain grants a cover save both ways, even if the model is clearly visible.

 

As far as I am aware, the only exception to this is if a unit is in the area terrain, firing out. In this case, up to 2" worth of the terrain is ignored for them firing out only. If they are more than 2" in, their target would get a cover save as normal, even if clearly visible.

 

This is covered in some detail on page 22 so I am unsure of the source of your confusion.

 

I am looking at page 22, and my confusion comes from that it doesn't anywhere (on pg 22 or previously) say units firing out of terrian automatically grant cover bonuses, so making the 2" rule the exception to it. It does however previously say that if the LOS is obscured this grants cover, so making the 2" rule an exception to this rule.

[WarpSpawn]

Well, for one thing, the bit where it says may fire through up to 2", "without that terrain conferring a cover save to the target", rather strongly suggests that being further in that 2" does confer said cover save, presumably obeying the same rules as firing through area terrain mentioned on the same page.

[WarpSpawn]

I would like to add though, in the example of firing over the terrain, you may have a point. If you are firing over it, area terrain is irrelevant.

 

The only problem with this is it may not always be clear where the top of the terrain is. If you have some woods, that includes a bush, I'm pretty sure being able to see over the bush does not negate the cover save granted by the woods as a whole. On the other hand, if the terrain is completely composed of low piles of rocks, it may very well be possible to ignore the cover save, regardless of distance in.

[Cornishman]

Well, for one thing, the bit where it says may fire through up to 2", "without that terrain conferring a cover save to the target", rather strongly suggests that being further in that 2" does confer said cover save, presumably obeying the same rules as firing through area terrain mentioned on the same page.

WarpSpawn, thank-you for your replies, I agree that the rule can be read to suggest this, but it can also be read to support my interpretation. The problem I have with the any fire through >2” of terrain you are occupying interpretation is the lack of the rule for it to be an exception to, whilst with my interpretation can be clearly explained, and referenced to the rules in the book. Below is the thought process I had when forming my opinion (hence causing the contention with other gamers).

 

Purely LOS based cover saves

1. The Basic Rules: As given in pg 21 and pg 16 cover saves are based on LOS between the firers head and the target being obscured.

2.The Exception: This is an exception to the previously established rules (as established in 1) by not granting cover saves even if LOS is obscured, but only if firing through 2” or less of terrain they are occupying (pg 22)

 

All shots firing through >2” Grant cover saves.

2. The Exception. You may fire through 2” of terrain without giving the target a cover save (pg 22). There for there there must be a rule one such that;

1) The Basic Rules: Any unit firing out of area terrain grants the target a cover save (pg ?)

 

Now regarding the woods example, I would definitely agree this is trickier situation. I think it can however can be explained using the rules and the examples given on pg 22. If the firer needs to fire between the trees (or other tall elements of the terrain) then this grants the cover save, as they are firing between elements of an area terrain and can’t see clearly over them if they are in front of all such features then they wouldn’t grant cover saves, they aren't firing through them. Maybe not the cleanest solution but it seems to be easy to explain within the rules given a little thought.

[WarpSpawn]

Put simply though, can you fire out of the terrain, without firing through it (assuming you cannot fire over it)? If you are in a very localised patch of fog and wish to throw a ball out of it, does it pass through fog?

 

The answers are no and yes respectively.

 

Now, since the rules do cover firing "through" area terrain, I can see no reason to believe this would not apply when firing out of it, assuming the distance of greater than 2".

 

Realistic or not, area terrain is kind of like that patch of fog. Unless you are taller than the fog, you must look through it. Whilst this does not explain the 2" rule fully, it covers just about everything else that I can think of.

 

As far as the height of the terrain as a whole is concerned, if this is not immediately obvious from the terrain feature itself, I would propose a convention of using the tallest point on the terrain feature. This should prevent silly examples, like the firing over a bush in a forest, though I guess this is one to agree with your opponent when deciding what terrain counts as what.

 

Edit: By the way, page 22 does actually say you may fire "through" 2" and not confer a cover save. It is pretty clear, by RAW and by plain english, that the terms "through" and "out of" are essentially interchangeable.

[nighthawks]

also, one needs to understand (and have it worked out with ones opponent before starting the game) WHAT is area terrain, and what is "WYSIWYG" terrain (not area, but exists exactly as you see it).

 

cornish, you seem to have a good grasp of the idea of the elements of area terrain (as in seeing models between them, etc..), but there are other things you need to know: you ALWAYS need LOS to fire upon a target. target s IN area terrain get a cover save, target units >50% not visible to firers get a cover save (from whatever hides them), and targets out of area, in the open, being fired upon by models IN area get a cover save if the firers are >2" inside the area perimeter.

 

listen to design philosophy podcast 1 from the GW website if you want more clarification, the guy who wrote the rules explains that THAT is how it is.

[Cornishman]

As for LOS I understand you always need LOS sorry if I implied that you didn't.

 

So how the rule is supposed to be written is in the design pod cast, I seem the remember that they are quite long, how far through is it? As all I'm after to agree with the seemingly established opinion a rule to say that all fire out of area terrian grants a save to the target (if >2"), which at present is only one possible reading of the rules as written.

[Brother Nicolas]

One thing to remember that teh 2" through terain is if they are occupying the terain so if your not occupying the terain then you do not get 2" through terain.

[WarpSpawn]

As all I'm after to agree with the seemingly established opinion a rule to say that all fire out of area terrian grants a save to the target (if >2"), which at present is only one possible reading of the rules as written.

 

Well RAW refers firing "through", in the context of firing out of. Ergo, firing out of is firing through. Firing through grants a cover save.

 

Not sure what else you need really.

[Cornishman]

As all I'm after to agree with the seemingly established opinion a rule to say that all fire out of area terrian grants a save to the target (if >2"), which at present is only one possible reading of the rules as written.

 

Well RAW refers firing "through", in the context of firing out of. Ergo, firing out of is firing through. Firing through grants a cover save.

 

Not sure what else you need really.

 

Firing out does not mean firing through. You are in a wheat field (area terrian) does this mean you must look through the wheat (the cover) to see out? No: If you are tall enough you can see out of the wheat field by looking over the wheat.

 

And having listened to the pod cast all they mention is WYSIWYG for cover the default rule, and there is no mention of area terrian in the discussion.

[Brother Nicolas]

As all I'm after to agree with the seemingly established opinion a rule to say that all fire out of area terrian grants a save to the target (if >2"), which at present is only one possible reading of the rules as written.

 

Well RAW refers firing "through", in the context of firing out of. Ergo, firing out of is firing through. Firing through grants a cover save.

 

Not sure what else you need really.

 

Firing out does not mean firing through. You are in a wheat field (area terrian) does this mean you must look through the wheat (the cover) to see out? No: If you are tall enough you can see out of the wheat field by looking over the wheat.

 

And having listened to the pod cast all they mention is WYSIWYG for cover the default rule, and there is no mention of area terrian in the discussion.

 

Are you occupying the terain? if no then no 2" rule. If yest then you get 2" rule.

[WarpSpawn]

Firing out does not mean firing through. You are in a wheat field (area terrian) does this mean you must look through the wheat (the cover) to see out? No: If you are tall enough you can see out of the wheat field by looking over the wheat.

 

To be honest, I think you are getting confused between "through" and "over". I've already covered the idea that, being in area terrain that is lower than the models, you could most likely claim firing over it, when firing out of it. It would require a degree of agreement with your opponent as to what constitutes "over", though the bush in the woods example should never qualify in my oh so humble opinion.

 

If the terrain is taller than the models, you have to fire through it to fire out of it.

 

The fog analogy stands. If the fog is incredibly low to the ground, of course you could throw the ball without it going through fog. If the fog patch is taller, this cannot be avoided.

 

Area terrain is abstract. If it was not, it would merely be WYSYWYG terrain (at least for LoS).

 

So, to summarise, unless you can fire over, "out of" = "through". "Through" = cover save (subject to explicit exceptions, like the 2" rule).

 

I honestly think you are trying to hard to find a loophole where none exists.

[Brother Nicolas]

the other posts are all about through not over.. thats why i was putting in the comment about are you inside the terrain per the 2" rule.. otherwsie..

 

well I would comment on rest but would require to put way to much of the rules down and dont feel like quoting all those sections.

 

Do have to say that the comment about firing over is very veg but if the unit is inside area terain then does not matter what it looks like on can not shoot over the terain to get to the guys inside the terain ... even at edges or partly throuhg ... (second bullet point on page 22)

[WarpSpawn]

Right or wrong, I was refering more to firing out of the terrain when talking about firing over to avoid conferring the cover save. He has a point about the wheatfield type of cover. If the models in it are clearly taller than the whole terrain feature, I don't see why they would not qualify for firing over it, though I'd still go with the taller than the tallest concept I mentioned above in determining the height of the terrain. Not 100% sure if this is correct but it makes sense to me at least.

 

Troops firing at them from outside (or even if both units were in the terrain) would of course enjoy no such benefit, unless we are talking vehicles, monsters or something where the 50% rule takes precedent.