Daren Posted September 27, 2008 Share Posted September 27, 2008 you can find out information about the Alpha legion Primarch here, be warned it may have some spoilers for the Legion Novel. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Alpharius Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1707505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted September 27, 2008 Share Posted September 27, 2008 The lion as war master dose not work for me the Lion was cold and inflexible he seemed unwilling to compromise or see his brothers side of things (the lion and the wolf). I could see the Dark angels breaking the walls of the imperial palace with minimal casualties. Thus becoming are realities Iron Warriors Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1707511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Kael Posted September 28, 2008 Share Posted September 28, 2008 Who is the Lion, everyone refers to him but I dont know who he is? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1709065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tfcdogbert Posted September 28, 2008 Share Posted September 28, 2008 Who is the Lion, everyone refers to him but I dont know who he is? Â Lion El Johlson, primarch of the Dark Angels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1709131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiri the Corrupted Posted September 28, 2008 Share Posted September 28, 2008 The lion as war master dose not work for me the Lion was cold and inflexible he seemed unwilling to compromise or see his brothers side of things (the lion and the wolf). I could see the Dark angels breaking the walls of the imperial palace with minimal casualties. Thus becoming are realities Iron Warriors Really, the DA never struck me as siege specialists. Then again, I've never bothered reading the pre-heresy DA fluff. Dorn and his Fists (hehe, instead of the Imperial Fists you would get the Fists of Chaos) would be more suited for breaking the Imperial Palace, now designed by Perturabo and manned by his Iron Warriors. The question is, who would be the other Legions defending Terra? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1709215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted September 28, 2008 Share Posted September 28, 2008 I think that if the roles were reversed, the Sons of Horus would be defending the Palace, along with Death Guard. These two would be great for defending... I can see it now, a now-daemonic Sanguinius throwing his Blood Angels into every opening in the Palace Wall as the valiant Death Guard hold them off. Man, that would be awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1709269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daren Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 I think if the Primarch's had switched places, the entire Siege of Terra would have been an entirely different battle. Let's say it was the Luna Wolves, Death Guard, and the Iron Warriors defending the Palace ( that combo just seems awesome to me). The Luna Wolves have strengths in their flexible organization and their good at tearing apart the enemy command structure. That could have played out well for the loyalist defending the Palace, if the Luna Wolves damaged the enemy's command structure. The Death Guard on the other hand are good at steady relentless advancement and straight assault tactics, while those aren't necessarily great for defense, they at least would hold to the last or perhaps even lead a counter assault on the traitors. Now the Iron warriors are good at Siege tactic's which in my opinion would give them insight into how the traitors might try to break the defenses. They are also admittedly good at defense, and excel at long range assaults which would have been a great strength in holding the traitor's back. Â While on the traitor side you have the Blood Angel's White Scar's and the Imperial Fists ( once again I just like this combo of legions ) The Blood Angel's strength is assault, so I don't see how they wouldn't have done well at the siege of the Imperial Palace. The White Scar's strength was Fast attacks which would have been of great use once the wall's of the palace fell. The Imperial Fists would have been the backbone of this attack as they are great at siege warfare and defensive warfare. They would have known how to take down the Imperial Palace defense and they would have a good idea of what to expect. Â So when I think about it, if the sides were reversed I think the siege of Terra would have been vastly different, and who knows maybe it could even have been won by the traitor's this time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1709303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 The lion as war master dose not work for me the Lion was cold and inflexible he seemed unwilling to compromise or see his brothers side of things (the lion and the wolf). I could see the Dark angels breaking the walls of the imperial palace with minimal casualties. Thus becoming are realities Iron Warriors Really, the DA never struck me as siege specialists. Then again, I've never bothered reading the pre-heresy DA fluff. Dorn and his Fists (hehe, instead of the Imperial Fists you would get the Fists of Chaos) would be more suited for breaking the Imperial Palace, now designed by Perturabo and manned by his Iron Warriors. The question is, who would be the other Legions defending Terra? Â Â Yeah the more i think of it the less i see El,Jonson in that role. I do however think he and the D.A loyal to him could make a good Death Guard sub. Instead of returning to Caliban after the siege of the imperial palace he returns before only to find Caliban a twisted mockery of the planet he once knew so well in his despair he calls out to that voice that has plagued him since his time in the forests of Caliban. Or the Dark Angels could work as servants of tzeenect. Secrets within secrets and all that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1709454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Yeah Lion was a great tactician and strategist but Warmaster? He did not have the charisma for it. If Roles were reversed.....could it be the Sons of Horus were the great Legion kept far from the battle of Terra? I am just saying....Horus sent the boys in blue way, way, way out to the fringes because he was afraid of what they could do if they got into it. Perhaps a corrupted Guilliman felt the same about Horus? Of course, this IS assuming it was neither Guilliman nor Horus as warmaster and the theory was Guilliman fell to Chaos out of envy and desire to rule. If Horus remained Warmaster Guilliman would probably lose the Heresy, or at the very least waste time and forces by doing something stupid like attacking Horus in a bid to "prove himself Horus superior." Again, that is assuming the "Guilliman fell cuz o envy and resentment over being passed up for position as Warmaster." Â Heh, what would be awesome is if the Sons of Horus became the Black Legion as a symbol of mourning for their wounded/dying Emperor and fallen/lost Primarch. Abaddon leading the 13th Black Crusade against the Daemon Realm that is Ultramar. Just some thoughts. Or who knows? Perhaps Abaddon died in the first Black Crusade trying to avenge the Emp or his master Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1711867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 BTW if things were reversed since Horus would not be the Warmaster then his legion would not be renamed to Sons of Horus so they'd still be the Luna Wolves. i see the Luna Wolves along with the Death Guard and Iron Warriors defending the palace. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1711898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtNACHO Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I think Sanguinius would never have betrayed the Emperor. He gave his life in the worst way possible to protect him. I can't see a slight change of events changing that about him. Also even with Demon wings and dark armor i can't see him as a chaos lord. Â Yet I think the Chaos Gods could have tainted the Blood Angels from the beginning. They could have tainted the blood drinking ritual and changed the Blood Angels. So when the heresy begins the Blood Angels turn but Sanguinius stays true. Â When the heresy is revealed Sanguinius is nearly assassinated by his most trusted honour guard. He flees to Terra to reunite with his brothers. Once again he is almost killed by the Palace Defenders but Horus stops them. Sanguinius thus joins with his brothers and they plan out the course of the war. Â Meanwhile the Traitor forces burn holes into the galaxy, Blood Angels fight on without a Primarch yet except no order from the tainted Traitor commander. They without a primarch just seek to destroy the whole galaxy and kill for the sake of killing. Â Finnaly when the time comes. Gulliman in a daring move attacks Terra itself. As the Fists of Chaos(aka Imperial Fists), Space Wolves, and the Taintmarines(aka UltraMarines) assault the palace. While Iron Warriors, Luna Wolves, and Death Guard forces defend it. However the battle reaches the inner halls of the palace. In a last ditch effort the Emperor, Sanguinius, Horus, and Luna Wolves and Death Guard forces teleport into Gulliman's flagship. Sanguinius finds Gulliman himself first killing his TaintMarines. When Gulliman cannot bring Sanguinius to his side the two battle. When the Emperor arrives he finds Sanguinius still in combat. He rushes in to protect his Angelic Son, yet Sanguinius turns and pushes him down. The Emperor feared his son had fallen like the rest, but he had saved him. Gulliman was about to crush the Emperor with his Tainted Fists of Chaos. Instead Sanguinius had took the attack instead have his head and body crushed in on itself. A bloody pulp and two Angel wings were all that was left of the Primarch. The Emperor fought Gulliman brutally, he did not know Gulliman as well as Horus, he felt not such a strong a connection as he had with Horus so he decided to kill Gulliman as fast as he could. However Gulliman knew his one weakness, the Warp, over the heresy he had built up an immunity to most warp powers. So when the Emperor fired the blast of energy it had not killed Gulliman its power however had sent him sprawling into the Warp and formed him into a great Daemon Lord. Being relatively okay after the battle the Emperor had a Blood Altar built on Terra and placed Sanguinius' remains within it. Â The Blood Angels began feeling even stranger effects than Chaos' ones. It seems that Gulliman had so utterly destroyed their Primarch they felt its effects instantaneously. They began to recieve visions of their Loyalist Primarch being killed with the powers of Chaos. This changed them they suddenly retreated from every world they were giving battle, Chaos began to speak to them almost never and only in whispers, They were essentially reformed from Chaos. As the years went on the Blood Angel's rebuilt their society on Baal. Until the 39th Millenium when they began appearing on Imperium battle fields. Ever since the Blood Angels have tryed hard to redeem themselves in the Imperiums eye yet all of the Imperium has shunned them for what they did during the heresy. Now they sit alone on Baal with no friends and no enemies they only sit idly bye waiiting for the next chance to redeem themselves. Also only the must trusted Blood Angel leaders are allowed to go to Terra and pray at the Blood Altar, and this is under heavy heavy watch by Snipers. Â Sorry for the long post i tend to get carried away! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1712825 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyInDeath Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 The more I think about it, the more I have to believe that the Space Wolves are a more likely candidate for Slannesh than Khorne. They represent the most barbaric of the legions and are driven to excesses of drinking, eating and warfare. Hard life growing up on the islands of Fenris caused essentially a carpe diem attitude. Even when the emperor showed up to take Russ under his wing, he was disgusted at how much of a glutton and drunkard Russ initially appeared to be. I think this would translate pretty well into a Slanneshi lean as opposed to a flat out Khornate calling, which the White Scars would most likely have the most likely traits for. Â If, as stated earlier, Russ turned against the Emperor after His praise of Magnus' psychic talents, Russ and the wolves fall into a moody stupor which drives them to excess of drink and feasting that goes on almost without end, interrupted only by the stimulus overload offered by the forge of battle. Instead of the pleasure deriving from the quest of perfection, as with the EC's, instead it would stem from a deep loathing and paranoia and an inability to do anything about it. It would essentially be what would alcoholic would succumb to: drinking/eating/pleasuring to excess to find a way to deal with something completely out of their control that troubles them deeply. Eventually these excesses would also translate both to the bedroom and the battlefield and thus the allure of Slannesh would be complete, with the Space Wolves given over to the lust for drink, food, women, and more than anything the stimulus of battle. They would still excell at hand to hand combat, as they would love the sensation of thier foe dying against their blades, the feel of their blood as it slowly pumps its last over thier hands. I would say (eek) that they would most likely get a feel-no-pain special rule as they are crazed to stimulus. Essentially, in game terms i see them as slightly less effecient than khorne berzerkers CC wise, but with FNP. High points cost, but very powerful. They arent as numorous as any of the other legions, but what they lack in numbers they make up for in pure battle lust. The canis helix deformity would manifest itself in the ability for them to go into a berzerker rage to allow them to revel in the pleasure of battle (think daemonette, but wolfy and male). I know it's a rather liberal take on the wolf fluff, but that's just my 2 cents. Â As for the DA, I really cant tell which god they would decide to go for, but what I would be more interested to read the story of the factioning of the legion, as I still believe that if we are talking Bizzaro HH here, Luther and the Lion would still be on opposite sides of the conflict. It would be interesting to read how when the Lion came along and took the best of the troops, Luther was able to see the paranoia and darkness that the Lion brought to the legion and was determined that the new recruits would stay loyal to the emperor (think Gav Thorpe's novel, only more sinister). I think that would be a heck of a story to read about. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1712903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Although the Emperor's Children demonstrated that any legion could potentially turn traitor no matter how devoted, I have more problems envisioning some traitors as loyalists. I mean the Night Lords and World Eaters have always been excessive in their methods and their primarchs have always harbored an animosity toward the Emperor, and legions of lobotomized gladiators and schizophrenic sociopaths just don't scream "defenders of truth and justice" to me. That said, most of the chaos legions could and would have remained loyal if they were not tricked or screwed over. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1712964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobo Willie Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Well, if you think about it, if the future held Night Haunter being loyal, he would not have been as crazy as he was, since he wouldn't constantly be seeing his death at the hands of his father. Â If the Emperor had intervened and saved Angron's gladiator army, he may have been less angry about everything and might have followed the Emperor's advice about the implants and whatnot... Â Also, despite the excesses, if they had defended the Imperial Palace against traitors or helped prosecute the war on the side of the Emperor, he probably would have forgiven them. And in bizarro HH, perhaps the Emperor even preferred the excessive displays of force... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1712990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 doesnt John Grammiticus remember the emperor as being bathed in blood? any empire the size of the Imperium had to be created by force. Â to believe otherwise is to be naive. Â wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1713016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 There is force and then there is genocide, to equate them would be nihilism and I doubt the Emperor was a nihilist. Also from a purely pragmatic standpoint, if you are bringing people into your empire it's generally considered a bonus for the people to not be completely dismembered. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1713150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 well, i figured i would try and throw the traitors a bone...oh well. *COCKS BOLTER* Death to the heretics! Â wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1713176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 I said that the Emp was not a nihilist, not that we are not; therefore, I see your bolter and raise you a battle barge full of virus bombs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1713205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 I counter your Battle Barge with virus bombs with a Gavriel Loken. Â apprently a virus bomb, titan foot and mortal wound cant stop him. Â Wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1713227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Well he is a Good Guy which apparently makes him much smarter, sexier, and immortal(er) than anyone with less pure purposes, even if they vastly outnumber or outgun him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1713278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 may i please copy that for my sig? i am laughing harder than i have in days reading that. Â wolf lord keiran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1713279 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Go right ahead :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1713280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Haha :lol: Â The more I think about it, the more I have to believe that the Space Wolves are a more likely candidate for Slannesh than Khorne. They represent the most barbaric of the legions and are driven to excesses of drinking, eating and warfare. Hard life growing up on the islands of Fenris caused essentially a carpe diem attitude. Even when the emperor showed up to take Russ under his wing, he was disgusted at how much of a glutton and drunkard Russ initially appeared to be. I think this would translate pretty well into a Slanneshi lean as opposed to a flat out Khornate calling, which the White Scars would most likely have the most likely traits for. Â In the case of legions falling between influences, rather than one extreme or the other, I think it more likely that the Wolves would have ended up just as a chaotic legion of undivided, not a particular pantheon. The Emperor's Children went to excess for their sensations, and I should imagine regarded the SW as being somewhat brutal and uncivilised. In any case, I find it hard to imagine a chaos space wolf with leather hipsters, nipple rings and an attraction for pink! Â There is force and then there is genocide, to equate them would be nihilism and I doubt the Emperor was a nihilist. Also from a purely pragmatic standpoint, if you are bringing people into your empire it's generally considered a bonus for the people to not be completely dismembered. Â Interesting point, but do you not think that the line between these two things is somewhat blurred? The Great Crusade was built on the premise of martial prowess - both with force of technology and industry that made the outward expansion of the Emperor's domain unstoppable. No doubt many of the worlds encountered could be cajoled into joining (indeed the HH books give some examples of this), but that occurs generally when there is some parity of civilisation between the lost branches of humanity and the arriving expedition. Â But what happens when a race is encountered which is irreconcilable? Take the orcs on Ullanor for example. The Emperor and 7 other legions there commit to war on a genocidal scale, completely wiping out the orcs there. The term 'nihilism' should not be used lightly - on this occassion the Emperor was wiping out a society that had waged war and oppressed human life for hundreds if not thousands of years, but at the heart of that was a desire to create a rational and just empire of man. Admitedly this is an extreme example, but the HH books give us many examples of lost human societies being destroyed on a massive scale. This often was not a snipers bullet or special forces strike at a corrupt leader, but massive planetary bombardments, and invasions involving hundreds of thousands of soldiers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1713724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghosty Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 BTW if things were reversed since Horus would not be the Warmaster then his legion would not be renamed to Sons of Horus so they'd still be the Luna Wolves. i see the Luna Wolves along with the Death Guard and Iron Warriors defending the palace. Wait a minute, didn't the Emperor say Horus could rename his legion after Horus saved him from being choked to death from that massive ork warlord? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1714739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ensis Ferrae Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 what if, a legion that hasnt been talked about went to a specific pantheon of chaos??? say the salamanders went to nurgle... and the Raven guard when to Khorne (perhaps they rename from raven guard to blood ravens??? :D ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145708-if-the-loyalists-became-traitors-project/page/2/#findComment-1715104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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