How to Handle 5.0 Marines

[Smurfalypse]

Ive been wanting to put this up for a few days now, but everytime i would try and get this going something at work or the other long post would pop up and i would spend my time doing that. So on to the topic at hand.

 

It seems that most of us have at least flipped through the new marine dex and from what ive gathered and played with/against there are a few things that worry me.

 

My first and main worry is that SoB Khan...KHAAAAAAAAAAAN!!! KHAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!! KHAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!! (star trek joke). Every unit that has the combat tactics special rule will gain outflank, this is brutal, it also specifically says that this ability is transferred to any dedicated transport the unit has. So basically a unit of assault termies in a crusader as their dedicated xport can literally roll on the board edge and there is nothing you can really do to stop em. I dont think there is much anyone can do about it except to just accept the fact that you are going to eat it from that unit and hope you can finish them off or wittle them down enough after their initial charge.

 

My second concern is actually a smaller one but non the less strong. The thunderfire cannon is brutal. Heavy 4, str 6, blast = piles of armor saves needed to be made. We used this the other day and some poor genestealer unit got wounded 15 times with no cover saves allowed. Yes there is an option to do str 5, no cover saves, blast, heavy 4 :( This little guy is very cheap for what he does, but hes a SINGLE guy and can be easilly killed if you are able to focus on him at all. But still very brutal.

 

Land raider redeemer = :*(....this thing is just brutal if it gets within range of your army. #1 its going to be carrying hate within, #2 its gonna str 6 ap 3 flamer a unit, #3 machine spirit is going to use the other one to str 5 ap 3 flame another unit...Redeemer's give me the cry alone's!

 

I think we will see alot more bikes since their points cost went down significantly. ALMOST 10 points less per guy than chaos bikers. This will be odd because most people arnt used to seeing and dealing with bikers. We will see how the whole thing works out, but speed is deadly no matter how you put it on the battlefield.

 

If you want to offer some advice and tactics, feel free. If youve seen some other stuff that worries you, note it down here and lets discuss ways to whoop em....In the immortal words of Thugnificent.."STOMP EM IN THE NUTS, STOMP EM IN THE NUTS, IMMA STOMP EM IN THE NUTS!"

 

cheers :D

[Brother Nicolas]

Agree on Khan.. and one other thing one can combine two character (tho only getting on combat tactics abilit) so you could have say Strike and Khan and your givien strike outlfank. or say strike and MC and give MC fleet ....

[Smurfalypse]

Agree on Khan.. and one other thing one can combine two character (tho only getting on combat tactics abilit) so you could have say Strike and Khan and your givien strike outlfank. or say strike and MC and give MC fleet ....

 

Actually you cant. It says specifically under the special characters who have rules like that, that if you have two that do this you must choose one or the other. So its not like we are gonna be getting outflankers with rerollable flamers/h.flamers/melta weapons. :)

[apparition]

That landraider redeemer is a problem. Meltas are good weapons against land raiders but you have to get close and no one wants to do that with s6 ap3 templates. Vindicators and defilers? blast that land raider with a vindi? assault it with a defiler? obliterators up close could be good but then you have to deal with the land raiders cargo... i think the defiler might be better than the obliterator here but the defiler usually gets blasted early on so unsure. Terminators with meltas and chain fists should be good against a redeemer. Im not too bothered with special characters cos where i play hardly anyone uses them.

[aioannou]

we will have same problems with LR's that we had in 4.0.

 

lots of melta/las/plasma will smoke them no problem

[Drudge Dreadnought]

we will have same problems with LR's that we had in 4.0.

 

lots of melta/las/plasma will smoke them no problem

 

Not exactly. The new flameraider will hurt us a lot more than previous landraider variants, so the priority of killing or avoiding it is much higher. And how do you kill land raiders with plasma?

 

On average it takes ~30 lascannon shots to pop a landraider, or 60 if its in cover. Not very good chances, and i don't think anybody is running 10 lascannons in their army (except maybe you 3x3 obliterator types). Slowing it down or blowing the weapons off is the more realistic choice. The only thing i see killing them with any sort of regularity is dual cc weapon defilers in melee, or dreads with multi meltas, or terminators with combi meltas and chainfists. It would be suicidal to get anybody else close enough to melt it.

[Seahawk]

That many shots huh? Always seems to be far less when my men are at the helm...anyway, the redeemer can go down quickly and easily to terminators. They'll laugh at the AP3 template, and chainfists and combi-meltas will make VERY short work of it.

[DeathsHead]

we will have same problems with LR's that we had in 4.0.

 

lots of melta/las/plasma will smoke them no problem

 

Not exactly. The new flameraider will hurt us a lot more than previous landraider variants, so the priority of killing or avoiding it is much higher. And how do you kill land raiders with plasma?

 

On average it takes ~30 lascannon shots to pop a landraider, or 60 if its in cover. Not very good chances, and i don't think anybody is running 10 lascannons in their army (except maybe you 3x3 obliterator types). Slowing it down or blowing the weapons off is the more realistic choice. The only thing i see killing them with any sort of regularity is dual cc weapon defilers in melee, or dreads with multi meltas, or terminators with combi meltas and chainfists. It would be suicidal to get anybody else close enough to melt it.

 

Dreads with Multi-Meltas would be perfect.... except that they can't be relied on to focus on a specific task, and don't have AV 13. Otherwise, Terminators with combi-meltas and/or chainfists seem to be the next best choice, assuming they can get close enough. Deepstriking will probably be a must, in such case.... or maybe a head-on collision in their own land-raider? Brings to mind Land-Raider bumper-car matches.

 

This new SM codex really is a catalogue full of one-trick ponies.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

A lanraider with terminators inside will probably be a regular part of my 2k lists once that dex is out.

[aioannou]

haha i dont get why people are so afraid of them.

 

lascannons, plasma cannons, melta weapons and krak missiles all pop landraiders.

 

and even if you cant destroy it. immobilizing it will be hilarious when he can do diddly squat with his template flamer as you run just 8.3 inches around it.

 

i think thats why LR's are taken so often, people fear them and can't handle them.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Once again, please enlighten us as to how you kill a landraider with plasma weaponry. And you do realise that it would take 4-5 weapon destryed/immobilized to kill a landraider with glances? And that krak missiles only glance on 6's?

 

I don't mean to be patronizing but right now you are sounding like the guy i played the other day who thought he was going to take out 4 rhinos, a defiler, and 2 dreadnoughts with the only anti tank in his army being 2 tac squads with missile launchers. And then he got really surprised and angry when he didn't and blamed the loss on poor rolling.

[the jeske]

well the khan gives just huge options . bike armies , land raider rush armies etc .

shriek is interesting with fleet for all peeps ,but without assault sm in troops he is rather hard to use . All others are fluffy , but not really that god . Well maybe cantor is ok , if someone wants to use the guard units as he makes them scoring .

 

Lysander is the most poor sod , he may have eternal warrior and TH/SS , but giving bolter drill to the unit he is with , when he is build for hth ? DT what were you thinking , while testing this [or rather I know what you were thinking , but I isnt nice].

[Brother Nicolas]

Agree on Khan.. and one other thing one can combine two character (tho only getting on combat tactics abilit) so you could have say Strike and Khan and your givien strike outlfank. or say strike and MC and give MC fleet ....

 

Actually you cant. It says specifically under the special characters who have rules like that, that if you have two that do this you must choose one or the other. So its not like we are gonna be getting outflankers with rerollable flamers/h.flamers/melta weapons. :blush:

 

I was not saying you get both was saying you get two HQ's and then tailor the force for what you need so Magnus C (howerver you spell his name) you could attached to a 7 man assault squad in crusader as dedicated transport and have khan also on the board and then use khans abilty to outlfank so you end up with 8 terminator guys in crusader that comes in on the table short edges mid game with ap2 bolters..

 

or one could take strike and then give your assault terminators fleet (so one 12"move with LRC, disembark 2", Run D6" and Assault 6") mmm not overpowered .? lol

[jamjar]

The khan guy has just shows how much the games changed in 5th edition now, its rare you face the whole of your opponents army from the beginning. The big pain i'm thinking of is all the drop pods landing down on objectives in the later game turns :)

 

still the way to beat marines is terminators with combi plasma's, lots of em. deep striking with icons. mow down those irritating troops and sternguard and the games yours. keep your eye out for those horrific assault terminators, nasty vanguard and honour guards and those really really harsh plasma cannon devies.

 

just make sure you know what his options are if he has khan watch your flanks, if not be carefull of deepstriking shooty units. if he has shrike, watch out for deepstriking assault vets. if he appears to only have one unit of scouts on the board play defensive and limit his placement options.

[Smurfalypse]

Agree on Khan.. and one other thing one can combine two character (tho only getting on combat tactics abilit) so you could have say Strike and Khan and your givien strike outlfank. or say strike and MC and give MC fleet ....

 

Actually you cant. It says specifically under the special characters who have rules like that, that if you have two that do this you must choose one or the other. So its not like we are gonna be getting outflankers with rerollable flamers/h.flamers/melta weapons. :)

 

I was not saying you get both was saying you get two HQ's and then tailor the force for what you need so Magnus C (howerver you spell his name) you could attached to a 7 man assault squad in crusader as dedicated transport and have khan also on the board and then use khans abilty to outlfank so you end up with 8 terminator guys in crusader that comes in on the table short edges mid game with ap2 bolters..

 

or one could take strike and then give your assault terminators fleet (so one 12"move with LRC, disembark 2", Run D6" and Assault 6") mmm not overpowered .? lol

 

 

LOL that is fairly brutal, thats across the battlefield and nothing you can really do about it except the damage isnt going to be to much. :P

[Kalrik]

Since you can give both an Assault terminator squad, and a shooty terminator squad a LR transport, Kahn can in fact break everything...

 

to be honest I don't even sweat the new land raider, I don't sweat the crusader, its the standard one that terrifies me... now with the ability to carry 6 termies, and with kahn, not be on the board first turn, roll on, poping its lascannons at different targets and stuff, its nasty,

 

I am not really impressed by the tac squads, even with ATSKNF and combat-tactics I'd still rather have Cult troop choices, even though they cost more, The loss of the ability to give them bolt pistol and CCW in a troop slot doesn't impress me as jeske said, even with shrike not that fearsome.

 

but them bikes, I agree with smurf on this one, especially that you can stuff a 40pt attack bike with HB into your bike squads.

 

The only thing about this army is its fairly cost prohibitive, since bikes are around $15 US each, but as BA and DA players are aware, probably the best anti-tank in the game right now is an attack bike mounted Multi-melta...

 

In big games, Consider that you'd have Kahn and Tigirus in the same army, that ultramarine slob in addition to being the greatest psyker EVER, allows you to re-roll your reserve rolls, (pass or fail) just... WOW brokenly insane.

[aioannou]

Once again, please enlighten us as to how you kill a landraider with plasma weaponry. And you do realise that it would take 4-5 weapon destryed/immobilized to kill a landraider with glances? And that krak missiles only glance on 6's?

 

I don't mean to be patronizing but right now you are sounding like the guy i played the other day who thought he was going to take out 4 rhinos, a defiler, and 2 dreadnoughts with the only anti tank in his army being 2 tac squads with missile launchers. And then he got really surprised and angry when he didn't and blamed the loss on poor rolling.

 

Plasma Cannon = my mistake i mis remember the +1 bonus is only for ap 1 weapons.

 

it only takes one immobilized to <DELETED BY THE INQUISITION> over the land raider you are on about, because then you just avoid the flame templates.

 

and tbh i am taking offense as if you read any of my other posts you would realise im gettin back into the hobby after a 2 year break... so tbh lay off and don't compare me to a noob.

 

what i dont get is why people are so afraid of them.... they dont scare me because i know how to handle them. and if im honest i think any experienced player does.

 

you can carry on moaning about how to deal with 5.0 marines but really it wont be a problem so im going to leave this forum to you

[Smurfalypse]

Once again, please enlighten us as to how you kill a landraider with plasma weaponry. And you do realise that it would take 4-5 weapon destryed/immobilized to kill a landraider with glances? And that krak missiles only glance on 6's?

 

I don't mean to be patronizing but right now you are sounding like the guy i played the other day who thought he was going to take out 4 rhinos, a defiler, and 2 dreadnoughts with the only anti tank in his army being 2 tac squads with missile launchers. And then he got really surprised and angry when he didn't and blamed the loss on poor rolling.

 

Plasma Cannon = my mistake i mis remember the +1 bonus is only for ap 1 weapons.

 

it only takes one immobilized to <DELETED BY THE INQUISITION> over the land raider you are on about, because then you just avoid the flame templates.

 

and tbh i am taking offense as if you read any of my other posts you would realise im gettin back into the hobby after a 2 year break... so tbh lay off and don't compare me to a noob.

 

what i dont get is why people are so afraid of them.... they dont scare me because i know how to handle them. and if im honest i think any experienced player does.

 

you can carry on moaning about how to deal with 5.0 marines but really it wont be a problem so im going to leave this forum to you

 

Well you did mention the fact that plasma could kill it twice and he asked after the first post how it could. Also i think you are WAY overreacting to his post, he simply asked and wasnt rude or anything so no need to be so testy.

 

Either way, the land raider is going to be a bigger pain in the butt than you are thinking. With the special character Khan its going to carry 6 ass. terms in it and roll up on the board edge (outflank), unload its cargo and flame the heck out of anything in its path. I personally think its going to be fairly brutal, but hey thats just me.

[Gideus]

I'm just wondering, after all I have read everywhere about the new 5.0 marine codex, is there any disadvantage to the SM list? It just sounds like it was designed to make every other codex basically obsolete, and have nonthing but high powered units with no drawbacks. Plus, having heard things like their bikes cost less than our CSM bikes makes me wonder even further (are they better *and* cheaper?)

I'm just afraid that the new rules set (which I personally find very good) will be ruined simply by one army codex (and I don't want to wait 2 years or more for the other armies to "catch up" or be revised yet again).

 

So tell me, does anything make the new book not a complete nerf job on everyone else?

Is there any balance?

[the jeske]

So tell me, does anything make the new book not a complete nerf job on everyone else?

Is there any balance?

well first of all , its like with legions . you have an army of sm with ccw and boltpistol ? poor sod , need new army . your vet sgts are apothecaries ? well poor sod again , you need new sgts . double special weapons ? well you can throw away one , not only you cant use the second one , but you need to take 10 man [anotherwords go buy RL/LC aka the devastator box] . played a non WS bike army ? well techniclly you could still play it with the cpt ...only why would you do that when you can take the khan ?

 

So fluff butchring galor and counts as every where [bought a las pred ? no chronus ? why? ah your playing space sharks ?] . every army needs a psychi hood [them chaos and eldar boyz have scary psychic powers] ...so your using a generic librarian and not tigurius ...well why ?

 

 

On the tactical side . the new units [the guard ones ] arent cheap and unlike our chaos units arent troops/scoring [unless you play kantor ] . While some units get a huge boost [and generally those are units that didnt sell very well in the past editions , but thats normal for GW] , others go horrible [scouts , landspeeders ] . While its true that its possible to build more then a few good [and some even fluffy too] armies out of the sm dex , its not ground breaking . A lash /PM/oblit build can still give at least a bloody nose to those armies . Now on the other hand if you try to play fluffy AL/NL/WB against the khan build ...well ... lets just call it codex creep .