Force Weapons

[Apogee]

How useful are Force Weapons these days? I'm considering taking one on my =][= Lord, simply so that he can, at his I5, take out big nasties in one hit (with 4 attacks on the charge at WS5, it doesn't seem too unlikely, even with S3). Do most big nasties now have immnity to isntant death, a la deamons or Iron Halos? Its the FW or the Hammer Hand power, and the FW is 41 points vs the HH 20, which includes ranged weapons. Bolt Pistol for the Force Weapon, since a FW is 2 handed, and a combi bolter for HammerHand, since it isn't a weapon at all :blink:.

 

Thoughts? Is it a waste of points? Will I actually be able to inflict instant death all that often? Note that I'm not too worried about losing the =][=, since Acolytes with Mancatchers will be reducing the Big Nasty's return attacks to 1 or 2 at best.

[werewolf_nr]

As long as you play it right and get your =][= into H2H ASAP (acronyms much?), it should do pretty well. Even at S3. I won't pretend to be an expert on monstrous creatures, but S3 would have trouble killing them, so that will take a bit of usefulness away. The next Space Marines Codex is taking away our immunity-to-ID-item so you may gain a little usefulness there next month.

 

Anyway, my $.02.

[JamesI]

Nids in Synapse, deamons are immune to instant death, as are a few marines/chaos marines (Marneus Calgar, Abbadon). I don't think all that much else is immune to instant death.

[werewolf_nr]

Nids in Synapse, deamons are immune to instant death, as are a few marines/chaos marines (Marneus Calgar, Abbadon). I don't think all that much else is immune to instant death.

 

Thanks for filling in that hole. Daemons being immune to ID when the chapter who goes after them is kitted with ID weapons ...

[Apogee]

Obnoxious how all daemons are immune to ID. Pretty stupid, in fact, but thems the breaks. I'll see how I feel about it once marines aren't immune, but ATM, I'm not feeling too great about it ^^.

 

(Chaos)Marines: Mostly immune to ID, maybe changing.

'Nids: Synapse.

'Crons: Phylactery.

Daemons: Immune.

(Dark)Eldar: What are multiple wounds?

Guardsmen: What are multiple wounds, SIR? :rolleyes:

Orks: So many multi-wound models it doesn't matter.

[Primarch Naogedd]

Since when are Chaos marines immune to ID? The only people who have that are DPs, Abby (and Khârn if you count his immunity to force weapons). You've still got tasty targets (lord, sorc, etc).

[Brother Richard]

Apogee: That's great! I never realized that just about everyone has immunity or some such.

 

The worst part is that I don't want the marines to have more special rules, I would just like every one to have less and bring it back to baseline.

 

Except for vows of course!

[Apogee]

I suppose Eldar and CSM might be good targets for Force Weapons, but still - very situational, and pricey. I'll stick with HammerHand I think.

[Brother Nicolas]

Not all deamons are immune just all the ones from the deamon army.

 

There are alot of things that are immue but then again this last game I let someone know I still had a pschic power to use and if he put that would on the attack bike I would be killhim with the force weapon ^_^

[maniclurker]

Apogee, you forgot someone else...

 

Sisters of Battle: Our faith in the emperor is soooo strong, you CAN'T have our souls.

 

However, I'd disagree with you for the most part. There are still plenty things that force weapons are useful against. Also, you're just thinking about force weapons, and not the librarian as a whole.

 

In the current codex, he is probably the beastliest melee character we can get, with the capability of having 6 I6 attacks on the charge, rerolling everything. In fact, he is possible the greatest monster killer of all times. Fully kitted out with a thunderhammer, mantle, and halo, he eats wraithlords for breakfast.

 

Seriously, he is one of the coolest IC's in the new dex. He will do what a classic magic user is supposed to do: throw badass fireballs (ST10 AP1 blast or ST5 AP3 template or ST4 AP2 assault 4), protect his buddies (5+ invul), and he teleports.

 

I've been thinking of running one in termie armor with a storm shield, and hanging out with some sternguard baddies. This squad would teleport wherever needed, frying everything. The ultimate doom squad.

 

 

edit- I just realized you're talking about inquisitors... :cuss is the point of giving a force weapon to an inquisitor. Didn't you know that combat is not the place for puny humans...?

[SpideyScott]

Force weapons from DH, WH and any other codex that desribes them use there own rules not the ones in the book. The codexes describe them as removing all wounds not causeing instant death. Page 50 of BRB clearly states for psychic powers use what is written in your codex if it is different, showing how the general rule is appiled in the specfic case for an army. The only things that would be immune to those kind of force weapons would be anything thats immune to psychic powers or had some protection against them.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The only things that would be immune to those kind of force weapons would be anything thats immune to psychic powers or had some protection against them.

 

Enter the Blessing of the Blood God for Bloodthirsters and Heralds. 2+ save against you. <_< Psychic hoods also cock-block force weapons.

 

However, I'm going to keep using the DH codex rules for force weapons; in particular, the Grey Knight's Grandmaster. None of this 'Instant Death' rubbish, it's 'I concentrate and your brains get fried, too bad'. Codex overrules main rulebook. S6 ensures he'll get that wound, and on Eldar/Imperial Guard he'll instant-gib anyway (but they have pretty good invul saves so it kinda cancels out).

 

Pity he still costs an army to field.

[boreas]

I was looking at the librarian stats in the new codex. Is t just me, or is it impossible to get more than 2 attacks with your TA Librarian? So basically, an Epistolary in TA went from 4 to 2 Force Weapon attacks(5-3 on charge)? With less things to kill and less attacks, the Force Weapon is not very useful in the SM codex anymore...

 

Phil

[SpideyScott]

Also there at Init 4 compared with other codex chapters like DA and BA i think who are at Init 5. Even tigrus doesnt look all that good even with all his powers etc. My GK GM with 6 attacks on the charge with a str 6 force weapon that removes all wounds instead of instant death is looking even better. You always use the codex definition of wargear unless faqed else where so DH hoods and force weapons are better than SM. Just read page 50 of the BRB it tells you for psychic stuff to use the codex definition.

[Gentlemanloser]

Tigurius (or a SM Libby) could use the two Melee based Powers to get I10, S6 (and 2d6 Armour Penetration) Force Weapon hits. :)

[SpideyScott]

Those powers only work in the SM assault phase so if on my turn i charged him he wouldnt be able to use them. :D

 

Also librarians including Tigurius are ICs and cant take retinues, so it would be easier to pick them out in combat. finally Tigurius will only get 4 attacks on the charge and he has a 3+ save and with a psychic power he can also have a 5+ invul. For someone who costs almost as much as a land raider i dont think he is worth it, yes it would be nice to re roll reserves and have all the powers and use 3 a turn but not at his cost.

 

Boreas you are correct an Epistolary in TDA will only get 3 attacks on the charge. Yea SM force weapons dont seem that good compared to what else can be taken as a SM HQ.

 

Edit Has perils of the warp always been if you fail the test but pass ypu invul save you have to roll your save again? I just noticed that in the book.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

No, it hasn't been that way.

Just noticed it too and pulled out 4th to check :)

[Apogee]

I like how a PotW attack on an =][= can have the wound shuffled off to an acolyte, technically. Which is a bit beardy, but RAW-compatible ;)

 

So, back to the topic on hand, does it make sense to stick a force weapon on a WS5, S3, I5 model? That gives about a 90% chance to kill a MEQ on the charge, discounting invulnerable saves.

[SpideyScott]

no i dont think it does because a power weapon would have just the same chance as a force weapon agaisnt MEQs. The force weapon can only work after you have already caused a wound on a model. so it can only be used on multi wound models. These tend to either have high toughness, initive or both. An Inqisitor just isnt durable enough to survie in CC for long, at least thats my experience of them. Better to go with the shooty verison.

 

Of course if you like using Inq in CC then go right ahead, nothings stopping you if you like to do it.

[maniclurker]

Apogee: Inquisitors = suck.

 

The only useful roll for them is to provide an army with a psychic hood (if you take the Lord, you have to have LD10 to make hoods work), and maybe some fire-supportiness, with a psycannon, some heavy bolters, and a plasma cannon.

 

Oh, and you need them to get assassins.

 

If you try to do anything else with them, they suck. It may be colorful, but not good.

 

I plan on making a monsterous creature hunting inquisitor with retinue, but they won't be good at anything else besides that. Well, maybe they could hunt down the new SM HQ's, as they all seem to suck in combat.

[werewolf_nr]

Well, maybe they could hunt down the new SM HQ's, as they all seem to suck in combat.

 

I had happily forgotten about that. Thanks for reminding ...

[maniclurker]

Actually, I'm sure that my setup of inquisitor with eviscerator, 3 acolytes with mancatchers, and 2 chirurgeons, would domintate any of the new SM HQ's hands down. Reduce all of the attacks to one, take the wound on the inquisitor, ignore it with chirurgeons, then slap SM in face with big chainsword. I think I might just use inquisitors agains. Oh, yeah, psychic hood for the win. No limit on range with theirs. I think maybe =][= just got a new lease on life in my book.

[fizz69]

Nids in Synapse, deamons are immune to instant death, as are a few marines/chaos marines (Marneus Calgar, Abbadon). I don't think all that much else is immune to instant death.

 

cheack the nid dex synapse only protects from instant death from dubble T wepons

[boreas]

Unfortunately, that has been FAQed to all Instant Death!

 

Phil

[Mal]

Thats right, insta death is about as much use against nids as a spit wad.

 

I'd like to see chapter specific SM masters get the eternal warrior special rule making them immune to ID (for example Supreme Grand Master Azreal of the Dark Angels).