Scouts!

[daemon*hunter]

Why dont we get scouts? I know you'll probably comment on how they are new recruits, and chaos dont have access to new recruits, but Blood Angel, and pace Wolf scouts are elites, who wan to get to battle quicker. and some of the chapters who turned to chaos more recently would probably still have some scout-level marines.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Actually, the Blood Angel scouts were Elites only because GW wanted to make Tactical Marines the only Troops unit. Still, the reason we don't get Scouts like the Space Wolves ones is because... Really the only reason is they want us to fight differently.

[Legatus]

Space Wolves Scouts originally were recruits just like with any other chapter. It was changed in their 3rd Edition Codex, perhaps to justify the quite powerful ability to appear behind enemy lines.

 

Recruitment of new chaos marines has never really been described in the background I think. I remember something about Fabius Bile experimenting to create new marines. There was the Black Library story line where the Iron Warriors stole some of the gene seed (but I do not like to refer to black library sources), and generally chaos marines do not seem to collect gene seed from their fallen as the loyalists do. Perhaps originally the chaos marines were all supposed to be remains from the horus heresy 10,000 years ago. But if they have means to create new marines today, given the more ruthless nature of chaos perhaps they are not as thoroughly trained and deployed as specialised recon units untill they have some combat experience, and instead are treated as any other chaos marine as soon as all the organs (or at least the necessary ones) are working.

[Dreachon]

Mainly becuase scouts weren't used during the great crusade, new recruits were given powerarmour right away.

[daemon*hunter]

Space Wolves Scouts originally were recruits just like with any other chapter. It was changed in their 3rd Edition Codex, perhaps to justify the quite powerful ability to appear behind enemy lines.

 

Recruitment of new chaos marines has never really been described in the background I think. I remember something about Fabius Bile experimenting to create new marines. There was the Black Library story line where the Iron Warriors stole some of the gene seed (but I do not like to refer to black library sources), and generally chaos marines do not seem to collect gene seed from their fallen as the loyalists do. Perhaps originally the chaos marines were all supposed to be remains from the horus heresy 10,000 years ago. But if they have means to create new marines today, given the more ruthless nature of chaos perhaps they are not as thoroughly trained and deployed as specialised recon units untill they have some combat experience, and instead are treated as any other chaos marine as soon as all the organs (or at least the necessary ones) are working.

 

So where do th New Chaos marines come from, and i know space marines ive longer then normal people, but Commander Dante's one of the oldest loyalists and hes, like 1,000 which means even if they could live as long as the BA's extended live, they could all have died of old age 10 timesby now!

 

Als, surely at some point a commander would have seen a group of snipy scots hiding in a barrel or something, and thought 'Hmmm.... Snipers, why didnt i think of that?!'

[Legatus]

So where do th New Chaos marines come from, and i know space marines ive longer then normal people, but Commander Dante's one of the oldest loyalists and hes, like 1,000 which means even if they could live as long as the BA's extended live, they could all have died of old age 10 timesby now!

Traitor Marines spend most of their time within the Eye of Terror though, and in there tim edoes not flow like it does in the material realm.

 

Als, surely at some point a commander would have seen a group of snipy scots hiding in a barrel or something, and thought 'Hmmm.... Snipers, why didnt i think of that?!'

Because Space Marines usually do not hide somewhere in the dark and pick off at individual enemy soldiers. Space Marines smash right into the heart of the enemy with a hand full of squads and destroy their command structure, before they engage and anihilate their disoriented combat forces even if they are outnumbered one to ten.

[DarkPrincess]

In Dead Sky, Black Sun it details how the Iron Warriors are making new marines... they're using 'daemon mothers' that are essentially fed the genetic material. I assume they're influenced through this some way to an accelerated pregnancy, and that sometimes young boys that are sons of slaves as well as captured on worlds they've taken are sewn into the wombs of these creatures and made into space marines. All in all as far as this scenario, it's HEAVILY using Chaos to create them, since they come out of the daemon mother pretty much ready to put on the armor, only lacking the black carapace, which is added soon after.

[daemon*hunter]

So where do th New Chaos marines come from, and i know space marines ive longer then normal people, but Commander Dante's one of the oldest loyalists and hes, like 1,000 which means even if they could live as long as the BA's extended live, they could all have died of old age 10 timesby now!

Traitor Marines spend most of their time within the Eye of Terror though, and in there tim edoes not flow like it does in the material realm.

 

Als, surely at some point a commander would have seen a group of snipy scots hiding in a barrel or something, and thought 'Hmmm.... Snipers, why didnt i think of that?!'

Because Space Marines usually do not hide somewhere in the dark and pick off at individual enemy soldiers. Space Marines smash right into the heart of the enemy with a hand full of squads and destroy their command structure, before they engage and anihilate their disoriented combat forces even if they are outnumbered one to ten.

that makes sense, except the last part, and my spelling sucks! :)

[Brother Nicolas]

Fabius Bile is going to be a good point also when choas takes slaves there are sometimes "recruted" members that stand out but this is so rare that its not noticed. Living 10000 years easly and if one is gifted with part deamonhood they just "reborn" in the warp and come back; some of the older stories have chaos marines act like deamons when it comes to them "comming back" years down the road.

 

They do not have scouts in the normal road of things.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The better question is why don't they have sniper rifles?

[Legatus]

Why did medieval knights not use bows?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Why did medieval knights not use bows?

 

Because they had peasents to do it for them, and because bows could not be properly used in plate mail. Neither is the case for csm and snipers.

[Rain]

Why did medieval knights not use bows?

 

Almost no medieval armies consisted only of knights, knights were always supported by archers and men at arms.

[Legatus]

So what if Imperial Guard or PFD on the loyalist side and cultists and rebels on the traitor side represent the peasants? Space Marines are definitely the Knights. they are neither lightly equipped or trained supporting infantry nor are they skirmishing elements.

The point I was trying to make is that Space Marines employ a method of warfare that relies heavily on shock value and decisive strikes at central enemy positions. They don't hide, they don't pick off enemy soldiers from a safe distance, they are not trying to conceal their presence from the enemy. They want them to see them, and they know what effect it will have on the enemy. They are very much like the medieval elite heavy infantry smashing through enemy formations and wearing their banners high to show the rest of the enemy forces exactly what they are up against. They carry brightly coloured banners with their chapters symbol.

 

Scouts are different. Scouts are not yet full Space Marines. They don't perform full on assaults, as they lack the accomplished combat skills and the protection of the power armour. They perform sabotage and recon operations behind enemy lines, so they do want to hide and conceal from enemy detection. Chaos employs traitors within the imperial ranks or perhaps scrying sorcerers for such things. Their veterans are also adepts of stealth, contrary to the loyalist veterans.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Okay, continuing with your straw man argument then.

 

Space Marines are definitely the Knights. they are neither lightly equipped or trained supporting infantry nor are they skirmishing elements.

 

Then why do they exist as an army in a skirmish level warfare game? And by that i mean that you are wrong and they are masters of skirmising and guerilla warfare as well as massive battles. This is well supported in the fluff.

 

They don't hide, they don't pick off enemy soldiers from a safe distance, they are not trying to conceal their presence from the enemy. They want them to see them, and they know what effect it will have on the enemy.

 

Scouts are different. Scouts are not yet full Space Marines. They don't perform full on assaults, as they lack the accomplished combat skills and the protection of the power armour. They perform sabotage and recon operations behind enemy lines, so they do want to hide and conceal from enemy detection.

 

Then why are scouts an option in the codex? From what you've said, they are completely the opposite of Space Marine combat tactics. And yet they exist, and are used heavily in both the actual game and the fluff.

 

Their veterans are also adepts of stealth

Why don't csm chosen have sniper rifles then? And why are there no traitor guard or cultist units available to chaos that would be the equivilent role of scouts?

[jenko80hell]

CSM don't need to skirmish for the gods are everywhere and see everything so when the time is the csm would warp in and suprise the emeny and attack from all around thats why they don't have sniper rifles and scouts they don't need them .

[Drudge Dreadnought]

CSM don't need to skirmish for the gods are everywhere and see everything so when the time is the csm would warp in and suprise the emeny and attack from all around thats why they don't have sniper rifles and scouts they don't need them .

 

Alright, i'm not trying to sound like an ass, but i do not know any way to ask you if you really know what the word skirmish means without sounding like one, so i guess i'm kind of screwed on this one.

[Legatus]

Then why do they exist as an army in a skirmish level warfare game? And by that i mean that you are wrong and they are masters of skirmising and guerilla warfare as well as massive battles. This is well supported in the fluff.

Because not every hostile group will come in the form of a massive army, and Space Marines make excelent exterminators to take on threats like genestealer infestations or small Eldar groups. The general tactics used by Space Marines in the case of large scale engagements are described in most Space Marine codices. Loyalist codices, I should probably add, as chaos codices are usually rather describing the features of the different renegade forces. 3rd Edition Codex Space Marines had an introductory story of a single company (IIRC) of Space Marines taking down a rebellion on a planet. 4th Edition Codex Space Marines has a description of general Space Marine tactics like preliminary orbital strikes followed by drop pod assaults on vital positions.

If Space Marines engage in drawn out smaller skirmishes it either means the enemy has no centralised vital positions that can be attacked in force (perhaps they are anihilating the remainders of the enemy forces after the command structure has already been destroyed) or that the initial attack was not succesful and the Marines have suffered heavier than expected losses while the enemy has more fighting capabilities than he should have.

 

Then why are scouts an option in the codex? From what you've said, they are completely the opposite of Space Marine combat tactics. And yet they exist, and are used heavily in both the actual game and the fluff.

Actually, Scouts have as much a place on a 40K battlefield as Basilisks do. They might end up where the heavy fighting is done, but ideally that is not where they are supposed to be.

 

Why don't csm chosen have sniper rifles then? And why are there no traitor guard or cultist units available to chaos that would be the equivilent role of scouts?

They seem more keen on getting into position to ambush the enemy forces and inflict massive damage by means of chainswords or special weapons. What a few snipers can do to an enemy position and what a squad of veteran chaos space marines that managed to get close to them can do is quite different in magnitude. And traitors within the enemy forces that provide the chaos marines with intelligence would not have a place on the table. Same as "orbital scans" from a battle barge in orbit would not.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Because not every hostile group will come in the form of a massive army, and Space Marines make excelent exterminators to take on threats like genestealer infestations or small Eldar groups. The general tactics used by Space Marines in the case of large scale engagements are described in most Space Marine codices. Loyalist codices, I should probably add, as chaos codices are usually rather describing the features of the different renegade forces. 3rd Edition Codex Space Marines had an introductory story of a single company (IIRC) of Space Marines taking down a rebellion on a planet. 4th Edition Codex Space Marines has a description of general Space Marine tactics like preliminary orbital strikes followed by drop pod assaults on vital positions.

If Space Marines engage in drawn out smaller skirmishes it either means the enemy has no centralised vital positions that can be attacked in force (perhaps they are anihilating the remainders of the enemy forces after the command structure has already been destroyed) or that the initial attack was not succesful and the Marines have suffered heavier than expected losses while the enemy has more fighting capabilities than he should have.

 

I'm not sure if you are arguing with me or agreeing with me. You seem to think you are arguing but i think maybe you don't know the definition of skirmish either?

 

Actually, Scouts have as much a place on a 40K battlefield as Basilisks do. They might end up where the heavy fighting is done, but ideally that is not where they are supposed to be.

 

I agree with you on the Basilisks, but i see no reason scouts shouldn't be. They are a low visibility ambush and flanking unit, not a 100% recon only force. Snipers work out perfectly given the size of battles.

 

They seem more keen on getting into position to ambush the enemy forces and inflict massive damage by means of chainswords or special weapons. What a few snipers can do to an enemy position and what a squad of veteran chaos space marines that managed to get close to them can do is quite different in magnitude.

 

They seem more keen on it because thats the only thing they can do right now. So, you are saying they shouldn't have sniper rifles because they don't? Nice inductive reasoning. And i see nothing weak about what snipers can do to the enemy and the tactical options afforded.

 

And traitors within the enemy forces that provide the chaos marines with intelligence would not have a place on the table. Same as "orbital scans" from a battle barge in orbit would not.

 

I suppose you are getting this from your idea that scouts shouldn't be combat units, and so their chaos equivilents wouldn't be? Again, whats wrong with scouts being combat units?

 

Can you just write me a response with some actual argument rather than a bunch of straw man arguments, fuzzy logic, and crappy fluff justifications? No, thats all you've done in this and that other thread. I don't really care about snipers. The original question was a rhetorical one making another cynical jab at the codex. I know why csm don't have snipers. Its because we have a crappy, half baked codex. Thats the only answer. Its nothing to do with fluff or combat doctrine. Just like us not having drop pods is nothing to do with it. Now please stop with your contradictory arguments and 1 sided fluff justifications.

[Legatus]

I'm not sure if you are arguing with me or agreeing with me. You seem to think you are arguing but i think maybe you don't know the definition of skirmish either?

I am talking "skirmish" in the sense of engaging the enemy lightly with manouverable and hard to get ahold of units and disengage before the enemy can strike back, all because of a lack in military strength. That's not really how Space Marines operate.

 

They seem more keen on it because thats the only thing they can do right now. So, you are saying they shouldn't have sniper rifles because they don't? Nice inductive reasoning. And i see nothing weak about what snipers can do to the enemy and the tactical options afforded.

Just read any story about a squad of marines fighting an average enemy. Then mind that we are talking about a veteran squad. A unit of snipers would never achieve anything close to that in terms of death and destruction.

 

I suppose you are getting this from your idea that scouts shouldn't be combat units, and so their chaos equivilents wouldn't be? Again, whats wrong with scouts being combat units?

They are a great combat unit when compared to humans. they are not such a great combat unit when compared to full fledged Space Marines.

 

Can you just write me a response with some actual argument rather than a bunch of straw man arguments, fuzzy logic, and crappy fluff justifications?

Meh, I guess all I can come up with is that Space Marines are giant super human schock troops in massive armour with a sense for pomp. God knows why to me that does not seem to be the kind of warrior you would find hiding behind some bushes to carefully snipe down an enemy officier before falling back to hide from enemy search parties.

 

Of course I am completely off track with that, and the correct answer to the rethorical question about the lack of chaos snipers would obviously be "because GW is stupid", which of much better. That there never were any sniper chaos space marines in any previous codex chaos does not matter either, because it is all the fault of this crappy and half baked codex.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

There, thats a good answer. And i agree.

[chillin]

I have no prob with chaos not having scouts fluffwize or gameplaywise.

Let's just assume that new csm's come in as renagedes (already s/m's) or skip the scout step and go from reg human to full csm and the few that are 10k yr old vets.

Chaos is less tech advanced, so would definately use snippers (whether csm's or cultist), as all armies that are less tech advanced then their enemies use snippers and other guerilla tactics to help make up for that gap in tech. Even though it would make sense for chaos to have snippers, I have no problem with chaos not having them, b/c chaos SHOULD be different the s/m's, and that's one of the ways that we are.

[Legatus]

So it is probably the Orks who should really make much use of snipers.

 

And does that mean chaos would use snipers mainly against Eldar and Tau, but not so much against humans and orks?

[the jeske]

So it is probably the Orks who should really make much use of snipers

they do or at least they did in the 2ed and GW didnt say they stoped doing it [gretich snipers]since then . But then again fluff about gretich stoped at the lvl of gorka morka .

And does that mean chaos would use snipers mainly against Eldar and Tau, but not so much against humans and orks?

also I think that chill doesnt mean csm only [even if there are csm armed with one shot sniper bolters like the WB in demon world] , chaos uses a lot of snipers because with mutation and chaos powers a normal man can become an uber sniper .

I mean a normal heretic almost took down Ragnar [see Space Wolf ].

[daemon*hunter]

I'll agree GW are stupid!

 

Also, knights didn't use ranged wapons because its a dishonerable way to fight. Equip a scout with ccw and bolt pistol, can be quite competent combatants, although they often need support...

 

If CSM did have snipers, they probably would be on chosen squads, but who cares if they can do more damage anothe way, snipers can be very useful for certain scenarios and missions.