Scouts!

[chillin]

Also, knights didn't use ranged wapons because its a dishonerable way to fight.

 

You never read of Richard the Lion Hearted ??

Thought the crossbow was the best thing ever, used one himself and suggested that all knights have one.

It's true that some knights in some time periods thought that ranged weopons were dishonerable, but you can hardly make it a blanket statement that covers all knights at all times in all places and situtations.

[Legatus]

Knight units are specialised at a specific form of combat. That is the point you are so skillfully ignoring.

 

they do or at least they did in the 2ed and GW didnt say they stoped doing it [gretich snipers]since then . But then again fluff about gretich stoped at the lvl of gorka morka .

I don't really remember those from 2nd Edition, and I was not able to find them by glancing into my old Codex. Where are they described in there?

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

During the heresy there were no scouts (I think someone already said that) and no sniper rifles; Space Marines were shock troops, and they do their job very well. The reason they don't have scouts or sniper rifles is the same reason they don't use storm bolters, storm shields or cyclone missile launchers: they think they have the right way of doing things and take pride in their tactics and wargear.

[Penmarch']

During the heresy there were no scouts (I think someone already said that) and no sniper rifles; Space Marines were shock troops, and they do their job very well. The reason they don't have scouts or sniper rifles is the same reason they don't use storm bolters, storm shields or cyclone missile launchers: they think they have the right way of doing things and take pride in their tactics and wargear.

 

An army without scouts and snipers? Yeah right...

 

Scouts were probably the very first military type that ever existed.

Even in a game-system you should try to keep some semblance of logic.

[Trve]

Because Chaos does NOT GET EVERYTHING THE LOYALITS get.

[Legatus]

Scouts were probably the very first military type that ever existed.

Even in a game-system you should try to keep some semblance of logic.

Well, in a chaos space marine force it's the veterans that perform infiltration and recon tasks, instead of lightly equipped rookies.

[Wander]

During the heresy there were no scouts (I think someone already said that) and no sniper rifles; Space Marines were shock troops, and they do their job very well. The reason they don't have scouts or sniper rifles is the same reason they don't use storm bolters, storm shields or cyclone missile launchers: they think they have the right way of doing things and take pride in their tactics and wargear.

 

An army without scouts and snipers? Yeah right...

 

Scouts were probably the very first military type that ever existed.

Even in a game-system you should try to keep some semblance of logic.

 

 

Pre-Heresy, Space Marine units operated closely with and even sometimes commanded Imperial Guard units. Additionally, creation time was minimal due to geneseed acceleration, so there wasn't much of a formal training period. Scouts and Snipers were part of the Guard regiments. If there were carapace-armored Marines pre-Heresy, it was because they hadn't gotten a sufficient supply of Power Armor yet for their new units; after ten thousand years of waging war, building up armories and stealing from the Imperium, Chaos Marines of the 41st Millenium have no shortage of gear.

 

Now, in the post-Heresy era, Chaos Marines have little need of scouts or snipers, since they inevitably have ranks of turncoat Guardsman and Chaos cultists to fulfill those roles - not especially well, but if you direct a thousand "scouts" to scope out an enemy position, even the most miserable, useless unit will manage to get one or two of its guys back to you with intel. Additionally, what few Chaos Marines there are that are newly created and not merely recent turncoats are incubated in the fires of a Warp-spawned hell and trained in the crucible of a Demon World; by the time the Imperium sees them, they've already existed through decades of madness and war and have probably earned Power Armor as a trophy of war at some point. Heck, it's probably suicidal for a Chaos Marine to even think of going to war wearing anything less than Power Armor (they're even rarer than Loyalist Marines and usually highly outnumbered).

 

Plus, the realization that Chaos mutations can end up fusing your body to your armor probably has most of them thinking that they're rather be wearing the best armor possible when that happens.

 

Finally, the traditional method of Chaos Marine target selection is usually preceded by some form of psychic or sorcerous scrying or simple prayer to the Chaos Gods to help select a likely target as they hurtle semi-randomly through the Warp.

 

The only Traitor Legion likely to use a formal infiltration and scouting force are the Alpha Legion, but the Alpha Legion has always trained its entire force to use subterfuge to its fullest advantage, so their scout corps are just as likely to be wearing Power Armor as not - and as we saw in the 4th edition Loyalist Codex ("See, but don't be seen"), Power Armor doesn't stop you from infiltrating if you really, really want to.

[Penmarch']

Scouts were probably the very first military type that ever existed.

Even in a game-system you should try to keep some semblance of logic.

Well, in a chaos space marine force it's the veterans that perform infiltration and recon tasks, instead of lightly equipped rookies.

 

You mean that handful of extremely 'expensive' Chosen? These are the scouts/ snipers you mention?

It's even worse than I thought!

 

Again, leave rule- writing up to people who actually know what they are talking about.

[Legatus]

"Chosen" is a concept of the 3.5 Codex Chaos. In previous codices chaos forces had "Veterans", who were experienced chaos space marines, acting as infiltration units. In Codex 3.5 that was basically any csm unit you were giving the "infiltration" veteran skill (and thus makig them veterans). In 4th it goes back to having a designated army list entry of experienced marines that do the infiltrating, but they are still called "chosen" now.

 

Space Wolves have experienced warriors do the scouting too (at least in the revised 3rd edition fluff), but they put them in lighter armour. I am not sure what your problem with experiened scout units is.

 

Chosen are not snipers though. Chaos Marines don't have those.

[Lord_Caerolion]

No, Space Wolves have their Marines that don't work well in a Pack as their Scouts. They can be inducted very early on, as soon as it becomes known that they really, really don't like working alongside others.

Also, having your most experienced troops in a scouting role is probably the least likely place you'd want them. After all, these Scouts are supposed to get deep into enemy lines, far from any lines of support, gather information/sabotage stuff, and get out of there while they still have a chance. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have my elite units somewhere where I know they'd make a big impact, say... the front line? Leading my other units? Not deep in enemy territory, with only a small chance of making it back before the battle starts, especially as they would rarely have a transport.

 

Chaos Marine Veterans/now-Chosen didn't have Infiltrate because they were the armies scouts, but because they had learned how to efficiently ambush the enemy. And remember, power armour is quite noisy, you don't scout in it, you'd be heard. Scouts however, in their non-powered Carapace Armour, are much more stealthy.

 

@Wander, you seem to be missing one of the main points of scouting. If your idea of scouting is just "send loads and loads of scouts out", you may as well just send your vanguard. After all, they'd be seen a mile off, if you sent them in the right direction, 1000 guys are hard to miss when they're all heading towards you, especially with your idea of using plain cultists and traitor guardsmen out.

[Legatus]

Power armour should do well enough for most reconnaissance purposes (aka "scouting"), and sabotage, while certainly useful, is far less crucial than simply gathering intelligence, where it is not really necessary to sneak up close to anyone. And yes, sometimes it might be a good idear to have experienced men act as those recon units. Marines in power armour are described as quite capable of stealth in numerous sources (wolf guard leader in scout units, night lords or alpha legion) even to the point of becoming hard to believe (Lord of the Night). A unit of chaos marine veterans should very well be capable to reach an enemy position behind his lines and then take it out single handedly. IIRC there is a bit in the new rulebook somewhere, describing how Huron Blackheart made use of expert Night Lord infiltration units who entered a fortress or city undetected.

[Brother Nihm]

IIRC there is a bit in the new rulebook somewhere, describing how Huron Blackheart made use of expert Night Lord infiltration units who entered a fortress or city undetected.

Correct, the Fall of Vilamus, in the CSM lore section.

Also.

I'd imagine that stealth in 40k (while wearing PA) is more than just sneaking around.

It is probably more about the marines using their enhanced senses (prey sight + Night vision in the case of the NL), military experience (e.g. observing terrain and enemy movement), knowledge of foiling machine spirits/sensors (manipulating armour & it's settings to avoid thermal, acoustic and motion detection etc.), camouflage and the creation of diversions.

[daemon*hunter]

@ Lord_Caerolion - Personally i'd quite like to have someone who knew what they were doing infiltrating, not the worst people i could find

@ Wander - Thousands of people sneaking up on the enemy? you might as well just tell them to attack, even if 2 did make it back, i think the enemy might have a slight suspistion that sme one might be there...

@ Trve - Thats the worst reason ever!

[Lay]

Because Chaos does NOT GET EVERYTHING THE LOYALITS get.

Play some Apocalypse.

 

@Wander, you seem to be missing one of the main points of scouting. If your idea of scouting is just "send loads and loads of scouts out", you may as well just send your vanguard. After all, they'd be seen a mile off, if you sent them in the right direction, 1000 guys are hard to miss when they're all heading towards you, especially with your idea of using plain cultists and traitor guardsmen out.

@ Wander - Thousands of people sneaking up on the enemy? you might as well just tell them to attack, even if 2 did make it back, i think the enemy might have a slight suspistion that sme one might be there...

First of, mind that Wander said that these troops aren't very good at it.

Secondly: Look up the Latd list. It states that Traitors (or "turncoat Guardsman" as Wander said) get infiltration because they are often familiar with the local environment.

[refuse]

Okay, continuing with your straw man argument then.

 

Space Marines are definitely the Knights. they are neither lightly equipped or trained supporting infantry nor are they skirmishing elements.

 

Then why do they exist as an army in a skirmish level warfare game? And by that i mean that you are wrong and they are masters of skirmising and guerilla warfare as well as massive battles. This is well supported in the fluff.

At this point, as it was resolved later, I would ask. Why do tanks and Titans exist in a Skirmish level game.

40k hasn't been a Skirmish level game since sometime in 2nd.

 

The scale of 40k has grown. We now play mini Tactical games.

 

 

I have no prob with chaos not having scouts fluffwize or gameplaywise.

Let's just assume that new csm's come in as renagedes (already s/m's) or skip the scout step and go from reg human to full csm and the few that are 10k yr old vets.

Issue is.

This implies the current codex follows 1000 year chaos veterans (which it doesn't as they use icons).

If the current chaos book was about renegades, then they should have their initiates, and such.

But it doesn't. The Current Chaos book is just a mix of post-heresy and current renegade rules.

 

Why doesn't Chaos have scouts? Because barring LatD, and the original RT books, Chaos has not had alot of thought put into it's organization.

 

Renegades?

Original Traitors

Warbands?

Renegade IG armies?

 

The reason chaos doesn't have scouts is the same reason that we have Generic daemons.

To be different then other codecies.

 

Chaos is less tech advanced, so would definately use snippers (whether csm's or cultist), as all armies that are less tech advanced then their enemies use snippers and other guerilla tactics to help make up for that gap in tech. Even though it would make sense for chaos to have snippers, I have no problem with chaos not having them, b/c chaos SHOULD be different the s/m's, and that's one of the ways that we are.

Well, Chaos should have integrated Cultists to be more representative. That could seperate them.

Then again, Scouts in Marine armies are now approaching Guard levels.

Also, the concept the sniper (at the ranges of this game seems odd. Well Titans seem odd too). ;)

 

 

 

Scouts were probably the very first military type that ever existed.

Even in a game-system you should try to keep some semblance of logic.

Well, in a chaos space marine force it's the veterans that perform infiltration and recon tasks, instead of lightly equipped rookies.

Then again,

Chaos would be a few hundered for the thousands that are in an average army.

The number of powered armored marines compared to cultists, and regular "chaos IG" should be better reflected.

I don't disagree that powered armored Chaos may be infiltrating. But I do think the chaos codex does a poor job reflecting the probably army composition.

 

100 Chaos Marines (like I have in my 29th great company) should almost never been seen together, if we believe the fluff.

 

Pre-Heresy, Space Marine units operated closely with and even sometimes commanded Imperial Guard units. Additionally, creation time was minimal due to geneseed acceleration, so there wasn't much of a formal training period. Scouts and Snipers were part of the Guard regiments. If there were carapace-armored Marines pre-Heresy, it was because they hadn't gotten a sufficient supply of Power Armor yet for their new units; after ten thousand years of waging war, building up armories and stealing from the Imperium, Chaos Marines of the 41st Millenium have no shortage of gear.

 

:) Imperial Army. :wallbash:

 

Don't forget.

There also was "enhanced human" squads. Or near marines. Ala Luther of the Dark Angels.

 

Now, in the post-Heresy era, Chaos Marines have little need of scouts or snipers, since they inevitably have ranks of turncoat Guardsman and Chaos cultists to fulfill those roles - not especially well, but if you direct a thousand "scouts" to scope out an enemy position, even the most miserable, useless unit will manage to get one or two of its guys back to you with intel. Additionally, what few Chaos Marines there are that are newly created and not merely recent turncoats are incubated in the fires of a Warp-spawned hell and trained in the crucible of a Demon World; by the time the Imperium sees them, they've already existed through decades of madness and war and have probably earned Power Armor as a trophy of war at some point. Heck, it's probably suicidal for a Chaos Marine to even think of going to war wearing anything less than Power Armor (they're even rarer than Loyalist Marines and usually highly outnumbered).

Agree!

Though I can imagine, that if this codex is suppose to support renegades, that there will be non-chaos chaos marines (renegades). So some scouts should still exist, but rare.

 

Plus, the realization that Chaos mutations can end up fusing your body to your armor probably has most of them thinking that they're rather be wearing the best armor possible when that happens.

:wallbash:

Well.

Storm of Iron has a set of Armor that chooses it's wearer.

 

Finally, the traditional method of Chaos Marine target selection is usually preceded by some form of psychic or sorcerous scrying or simple prayer to the Chaos Gods to help select a likely target as they hurtle semi-randomly through the Warp.

 

The only Traitor Legion likely to use a formal infiltration and scouting force are the Alpha Legion, but the Alpha Legion has always trained its entire force to use subterfuge to its fullest advantage, so their scout corps are just as likely to be wearing Power Armor as not - and as we saw in the 4th edition Loyalist Codex ("See, but don't be seen"), Power Armor doesn't stop you from infiltrating if you really, really want to.

I disaggree.

 

Night Lords would be a bit of an infiltrators.

Emperor's Children are (or were) not all Noise Marines, so thus they studied perfection.

 

No, my big thing about infiltration.

 

"Camo" doesn't matter when you are wearing a nuclear reactor on your back.

So infiltration/cammo or the ability to hide from the "naked" eye would be the least of the marine's problems.

Eldar psychic scrying, Tyranid "living/burrowed" ground creatures, Or fungus alert systems. So infiltration is a metaphore for getting where you need to be, without alerting the enemy. Infiltration at 40k's current levels could be as easy as driving really fast to flank someone, or having drop pods drop behind the lines.

 

Sniping, though.

With the different rounds, the bolter should be capable of sniping. The issue, do you need to?

The ranges (48") vs a heavy bolter or las cannon or assault cannon or missile launcher.

Is stealth needed, or possible?

Since I can fire, 1/2 the range of a sniper rifle accurately with a marine, is there a need? Or is sniping accurately depicted in 40k?

Since 40k isn't a skirmish game (Necromunda/=][= are skirmish level games) even sniping is an abstraction.

 

But, anyways. I could imagine killers of Khorne being snipers (old Khorne when there were many more paths to Khorne then new "beserker only" Khorne). Sitting back and sniping away. 1 shot, 1 skull for Khorne.

I could imagine Night Lords, using it as a terror value. Snipe, meaningless humans to drive the others crazy.

I could imagine Death Guard, sniping with super toxins/viruses that cause wide spread infection.

 

 

 

Correct, the Fall of Vilamus, in the CSM lore section.

Also.

I'd imagine that stealth in 40k (while wearing PA) is more than just sneaking around.

It is probably more about the marines using their enhanced senses (prey sight + Night vision in the case of the NL), military experience (e.g. observing terrain and enemy movement), knowledge of foiling machine spirits/sensors (manipulating armour & it's settings to avoid thermal, acoustic and motion detection etc.), camouflage and the creation of diversions.

I agree 100%.

Nihm has it, as he always does.

Being faster, or quicker then the enemy. Hiding your heat signal, or creating diversions (something sniping would be useful for).

Sniping and camo are more then just shooting and painting your armor.

 

See the enemy before they see you.

Be where the enemy isn't looking.

Strike for effect without being struck back.

 

@Wander, you seem to be missing one of the main points of scouting. If your idea of scouting is just "send loads and loads of scouts out", you may as well just send your vanguard. After all, they'd be seen a mile off, if you sent them in the right direction, 1000 guys are hard to miss when they're all heading towards you, especially with your idea of using plain cultists and traitor guardsmen out.

@ Wander - Thousands of people sneaking up on the enemy? you might as well just tell them to attack, even if 2 did make it back, i think the enemy might have a slight suspistion that sme one might be there...

First of, mind that Wander said that these troops aren't very good at it.

Secondly: Look up the Latd list. It states that Traitors (or "turncoat Guardsman" as Wander said) get infiltration because they are often familiar with the local environment.

 

Yes.

Perhaps your scouts are the local citizens. 1000s, and 1000s of citizens.

Why not have your scouts hide like Genestealer cultists. In the population, or perhaps you scouts are the population.

 

Even Tyranids had scouts. :) Genestealers, and genestealer cults.

Chaos has scouts! Cultists, and the population they corrupt.

[Dammeron]

We don't have scouts because we ate all of ours. There's some good meat on a scout.

[Legatus]

This implies the current codex follows 1000 year chaos veterans (which it doesn't as they use icons).

If the current chaos book was about renegades, then they should have their initiates, and such.

But it doesn't. The Current Chaos book is just a mix of post-heresy and current renegade rules.

 

Why doesn't Chaos have scouts? Because barring LatD, and the original RT books, Chaos has not had alot of thought put into it's organization.

 

Renegades?

Original Traitors

Warbands?

Renegade IG armies?

If the Astral Claws or the Relictors are anything to go by, going from loyalist to chaos does not mean that the chapter keeps on doing what it allways did, just in the name of a different master. Instead, they usually lose a lot (most) of the resources and facilities they had available as imperial Space Marines. A simple plot tool to explain the difference of all chaos marine armies? maybe. But if most of the chapter is wiped out by Grey Knights once the betrayal has been discovered it is also very plausible.

 

Well, Chaos should have integrated Cultists to be more representative. (...)

 

The number of powered armored marines compared to cultists, and regular "chaos IG" should be better reflected.

Yes, "Chaos" should have cultists, and lots and lots of them. But "Chaos Space Marines" should not. GW already made an effort (though very unwelcome) to take most of the "demons" out of the "Codex Chaos Space Marines", so there is no reason why traitor guard or cultists should be part of that army list. "Chaos" would have a huge amount of humanoid soldiers for every chaos marine, just like "the imperium" has huge amounts of guard and pdf for each space marine. But if you play a "Space Marine" or "Chaos Space Marine" army they don't factor in. Traitor guard has to be represented by the LatD list or the Codex Imperial Guard for now.

[Lay]

GW already made an effort (though very unwelcome) to take most of the "demons" out of the "Codex Chaos Space Marines", so there is no reason why traitor guard or cultists should be part of that army list.

Name me a single daemon that has been "taken out" - for all I know you can use them all. They just have to share their stats.

This is, just like the exclusion of cultists, a mere game design choice.

 

But if you play a "Space Marine" or "Chaos Space Marine" army they don't factor in.

Emphasising the name a the Codex says nothing about the army it covers.

The relation between Space Marines and Guardsmen isn't the same as the one between Chaos Marines and cultists. Loyalist Marines are an independent, solitary force, whereas CSM use cannon fodder to the same extend they use daemons. They are two different armies, both fluff and games wise and should be represented in different ways.

 

Traitor guard has to be represented by the LatD list or the Codex Imperial Guard for now.

Traitor Guard ≠ Lost and the Damned.

[Wander]

GW already made an effort (though very unwelcome) to take most of the "demons" out of the "Codex Chaos Space Marines", so there is no reason why traitor guard or cultists should be part of that army list.

Name me a single daemon that has been "taken out" - for all I know you can use them all. They just have to share their stats.

This is, just like the exclusion of cultists, a mere game design choice.

 

But if you play a "Space Marine" or "Chaos Space Marine" army they don't factor in.

Emphasising the name a the Codex says nothing about the army it covers.

The relation between Space Marines and Guardsmen isn't the same as the one between Chaos Marines and cultists. Loyalist Marines are an independent, solitary force, whereas CSM use cannon fodder to the same extend they use daemons. They are two different armies, both fluff and games wise and should be represented in different ways.

 

Traitor guard has to be represented by the LatD list or the Codex Imperial Guard for now.

Traitor Guard ≠ Lost and the Damned.

 

 

The only problem with including a full slate of Daemons, Traitor Guardsmen, Cultists and Marines into one big Army List is that it would be really difficult to build. It would just be three parallel Army Lists that you could mix 'n' match, and it would be tough to make an all-Cultist, all-Marine, and all-Daemon list that perform at similar levels, and still take into account that you could augment a primarily CSM force with a full wall of useless, unequipped, unupgraded Cultists, whose only role is to provide cover saves to your advancing CSM. It would be like allowing Imperial Players to choose units from the IG, SM and Witch/Daemonhunters Codexes freely. The number of combinations are incredible and the potential for abuse really high.

 

Augmenting a Codex with obviously low-quality and extremely cheap unit selections is just asking the players to use them as mobile ablative armor. Orks can work like that because they don't get up to "MEQ" except in close combat, but how do you balance two Chaos Lists, one of whom spends 100 points on two Traitor Guard ten-man units to provide "cover" to the advancing close combat units, and the other spending that 100 points on a few additional Chaos Marines? Or a list that fields 6 Traitor Guard Troop selections to spam the board with objective-covering units while Deep Striking in all the Marine units, compared to a list that has Marines as the Troops?

 

I supposed a "Unified" Chaos list could look like:

 

Chaos Lords, Daemon Princes - HQ

Most Chaos Marines - Elites

Cultists and Guardsmen - Troops

Some Lesser Daemons, Some Chaos Marines - Fast Attack

Tanks, Greater Daemons - Heavy Support

 

But then you would lose the ability to run all-Marine lists or all-Demon lists. One thing's for sure, I don't think you could balance a unified list and keep Chaos Marines in the Troops slot.

[refuse]

GW already made an effort (though very unwelcome) to take most of the "demons" out of the "Codex Chaos Space Marines", so there is no reason why traitor guard or cultists should be part of that army list.

Name me a single daemon that has been "taken out" - for all I know you can use them all. They just have to share their stats.

This is, just like the exclusion of cultists, a mere game design choice.

Funny.

I could delete Plague Marines, Khorne beserkers, and other things and all of chaos and call them all "Space Marines", and just use the them all with the Marine stats.

 

heck do the same, but use the Ork codex.

[Legatus]

Name me a single daemon that has been "taken out" - for all I know you can use them all. They just have to share their stats.

This is, just like the exclusion of cultists, a mere game design choice.

And I can tell you that it has greatly decreased the amount of daemons you will see in games. Previously, Bloodletters were no brainers in a World Eaters list. Now not so much. And while you can easily think of the generic daemons as any of the previous demon troop types, they are not quite as good at representing the beasts.

And on top of that you have a brand new codex exclusively for the plaethora of daemon types, so yes, daemons were all but completely taken out of the Codex Chaos Space Marines.

 

Emphasising the name a the Codex says nothing about the army it covers.

The title does indeed give you a vital clue as to what you might find in it. You would not expect to find any noise marines in a "Codex World Eaters". You should just the same not expect too many non-marine units in a "Codex Chaos Space Marines".

 

Loyalist Marines are an independent, solitary force, whereas CSM use cannon fodder to the same extend they use daemons.

If they have the opportunity they might. But there are dedicated Chaos Legion forces out there, and if they do not happen to find an already existing traitor guard force on the world they attack they will have to do without them. And they are quite capable to do so. You are not telling me the World Eaters or Night Lords are constantly traveling with a huge entourage of cultists or traitor guard to throw at their enemies.

 

Traitor Guard ≠ Lost and the Damned.

So you are telling me you could not use the Lost and the Damned list to make a traitor guard force? Is that what you are telling me?

[Lion in the Stars]

As dangerous as it is to mix real-world and 40k (brace for explosion), some of y'all are missing the point about how modern scouts/skirmishers operate. First off, every soldier in a modern army would be rated as a specialist skirmisher in Napoleonic times. The true specialist recon troops, like Long-Range Recon Patrols (LRRPs) from vietnam, Marine Recon, and Army Rangers, are considered elite units, and operate like SWolf Scouts do in 40k. I can quote a lot of different books, but I don't have the motivation to dig out my operational library from whatever box it's buried in.

 

The second issue is a game mechanic one: Snipers in 40k are ineffective. Yes, even the Vindicare. There's an enormous psychological effect to coming under fire when you don't know where the shooter is. Pinning doesn't accurately describe how incredibly demoralizing a lone sniper is. There's a game called Stargrunt that has excellent sniper rules, including alternate firing positions, but the mechanics of the two games make a port of the sniper rules impossible.

 

Let's look at RL again: Despite what the USMC says, the effective range of an M16 is about 250meters. If 24" on table = 250m, then a basic, bolt-action sniper rifle like the M24 (Remington 700) has a range of about 72" (700+meters for effective engagement), and a monstrosity like a Barrett M82 will reach out over 100" (longest confirmed kill with a barrett is 2500m, so make that 240" on the table).

 

40k isn't set up to handle true skirmish anymore (play rogue trader with 4e/5e tweaks for a real skirmish), it's really a larger game like Flames of War, with more than 200 models on a side that's being played with skirmish mechanics.

 

Now, if you read the Heresy novels (the early ones about the Luna Wolves), you see that even in the Crusade, Marines were used as the strikeforce, a sledgehammer blow to smash any and all coordination , which allowed the Imperial Army to land and attack. Sledgehammer tactics do not need snipers, and instead need scouts that do not get into fights with the other side. In fact, if the enemy detects the scouts for a sledgehammer assault, the operation has been blown and needs to be called off.

[Dammeron]

Deep fried Scout, Scout a l'orange, Scout kebabs...it's amazing how much you can get off just one of the little bleeders....

[Lay]

The only problem with including a full slate of Daemons, Traitor Guardsmen, Cultists and Marines into one big Army List is that it would be really difficult to build. It would just be three parallel Army Lists that you could mix 'n' match, and it would be tough to make an all-Cultist, all-Marine, and all-Daemon list that perform at similar levels, and still take into account that you could augment a primarily CSM force with a full wall of useless, unequipped, unupgraded Cultists, whose only role is to provide cover saves to your advancing CSM. It would be like allowing Imperial Players to choose units from the IG, SM and Witch/Daemonhunters Codexes freely. The number of combinations are incredible and the potential for abuse really high.

I don't think that everything should be merged into one big Codex. But there was a Chapter Approved(irc) that made cultists available for the 3.0 Chaos Codex. That combination worked.

Nothing wrong with a stand alone Daemon Codex.

 

Funny.

I could delete Plague Marines, Khorne beserkers, and other things and all of chaos and call them all "Space Marines", and just use the them all with the Marine stats.

And I can tell you that it has greatly decreased the amount of daemons you will see in games. Previously, Bloodletters were no brainers in a World Eaters list. Now not so much. And while you can easily think of the generic daemons as any of the previous demon troop types, they are not quite as good at representing the beasts.

And on top of that you have a brand new codex exclusively for the plaethora of daemon types, so yes, daemons were all but completely taken out of the Codex Chaos Space Marines.

While a badly represented unit may also be an unpopular unit, "badly represented" does not equal "deleted".

Daemons are available. Cultists aren't.

 

The title does indeed give you a vital clue as to what you might find in it. You would not expect to find any noise marines in a "Codex World Eaters". You should just the same not expect too many non-marine units in a "Codex Chaos Space Marines".

And yet we DID have entries for different daemons in previous codices and not a single one was called "Codex: Chaos Space Marines + Daemons"

Just look at what was available in the 2nd edition Codex.

 

If they have the opportunity they might. But there are dedicated Chaos Legion forces out there, and if they do not happen to find an already existing traitor guard force on the world they attack they will have to do without them. And they are quite capable to do so.

Same could be said about daemons. Not every warband relies on them, but that doesn't mean they should be made unavailable.

Heck, if Space Marines can take the Legion of the Damned as a regular choice, what's wrong with cultists?

[Legatus]

While a badly represented unit may also be an unpopular unit, "badly represented" does not equal "deleted".

Daemons are available. Cultists aren't.

Perhaps you would care to re-read my original statement:

 

"GW already made an effort (though very unwelcome) to take most of the "demons" out of the "Codex Chaos Space Marines", so there is no reason why traitor guard or cultists should be part of that army list."

 

And yet we DID have entries for different daemons in previous codices and not a single one was called "Codex: Chaos Space Marines + Daemons"

Just look at what was available in the 2nd edition Codex.

Yes, and that was nice. But for the new Codex GW decided to emphasise the "Space Marines" part more. That especially makes sense if they are planning to release seperate codices for the different army types of chaos, like they started with "Codex Chaos Daemons", as opposed to a single Codex for all things Chaos. You know, like "Codex Chaos" from 2nd Edition. But "Chaos Space Marines" ≠ "Chaos", so if GW does not give us cultists, traitor guard and a decent selection of daemons in our Codex Chaos Space Marines, we should not have a reason to complain (barring daemon richer past "csm" codices). We can still complain that they are not giving us all in one, but at least it is not falsely advertised.

 

Same could be said about daemons. Not every warband relies on them, but that doesn't mean they should be made unavailable.

Heck, if Space Marines can take the Legion of the Damned as a regular choice, what's wrong with cultists?

Well, the Legion of the Damned are still Space Marines. It certainly might have been nice to have some sort of cultists available. But it is a list for space marines, and it also is a game balancing decision, especially with the change from 4th (can shoot through enemy units) to 5th (units in the back get cover saves). No opponent should be forced to shoot at 3-4 point cultists before he can shoot at the berserkers behind them without them having a 4+ cover save.