Who is Zso Sahaal

[Brother Captain Aruis]

I'm wondering who is Zso Sahaal ? Is he second in command in the Night Lord legion? What are his motives?

[Bigger-than-Jesus]

I'm wondering who is Zso Sahaal ? Is he second in command in the Night Lord legion? What are his motives?

He's Talonmaster and rightful heir to the leadership of the legion, but he was usurped by Krieg Acerbus. His motives I'm guessing are to knock seven shades of hell out of Acerbus and get his Legion back so he can get revenge on the Imperium. You really should read Lord of the night by Si Spurrier for more info

[Brother Nihm]

Click: here

[Brother Captain Aruis]

Thank you, but I'm still a little confuse is he loyal to the emperor, night haunter, or himself? It seems to me that he loved Night Haunter and is trying to bring back the legion old ways?

 

Also does anyone know have any details on how he looked?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

he is devoutly loyal to the night haunter, so hates the emperor for the percieved betrayal.

 

read lords of the night, he is described pretty well there.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Vash113]

I dunno about hating the Emperor he seemed to sort of just accept everything in the end, he rejected chaos, but can't return to the Imperium, and his Legion is far too far gone. Now I think Sahaal's only motive is to get revenge on Acerbus and destroy the corrupt, twisted remains of the proud Night Lords.

 

As far as what he looks like, I picture the Champion of the Raptors models. Or maybe the Chaos Lord with Jump Pack model. A Pair of taloned lightning claws, baroque armor and a wicked, corpse like face plate of his helmet and of course the taloned boots of a Raptor.

[Brother Captain Aruis]

So playing him would be best done by using csm codex?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I dunno about hating the Emperor he seemed to sort of just accept everything in the end, he rejected chaos, but can't return to the Imperium, and his Legion is far too far gone. Now I think Sahaal's only motive is to get revenge on Acerbus and destroy the corrupt, twisted remains of the proud Night Lords.

 

As far as what he looks like, I picture the Champion of the Raptors models. Or maybe the Chaos Lord with Jump Pack model. A Pair of taloned lightning claws, baroque armor and a wicked, corpse like face plate of his helmet and of course the taloned boots of a Raptor.

 

my problem with the night lords is their actions before the heresy erupted were as terrible as the actions of the soon to be traitor legions. they were murderers, holding military campaigns not for any strategic goals, just to implement terror on a massive scale. the HH was simply a convient excuse for them to go even crazier. as Sahaal was to be the legions ruler after the death of cruze, i think it is impossible to think he would have any other goal than to continue the murderous ways of the NLs. proud night lords is like honorable jack the ripper.

 

all Acerbus gives Sahaal is a focal point for the anger he feels at the NLs depth of craziness. they were nuts before, but now seduced by chaos powers, they are cracked out crazy.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Hobo Willie]

I would just use the new codex coming up. Any Night Lords following him would not be worshiping Chaos at all. And to do an unmarked, no cult troops, and no daemons army in the Codex: Chaos Space Marine is similar to only using Scouts if you play Space Marines. You can do it, but you better be ready to lose...a lot.

[Vash113]

my problem with the night lords is their actions before the heresy erupted were as terrible as the actions of the soon to be traitor legions. they were murderers, holding military campaigns not for any strategic goals, just to implement terror on a massive scale. the HH was simply a convient excuse for them to go even crazier. as Sahaal was to be the legions ruler after the death of cruze, i think it is impossible to think he would have any other goal than to continue the murderous ways of the NLs. proud night lords is like honorable jack the ripper.

 

Thats not what the book implies though. For Sahaal murder and atrocity were only ever tools to accomplish a goal, murder for murder's sake was utterly unknown to him. Whereas for the rest of the Legion terror was the goal not the means. Sahaal embodied the tenets of the Night Haunter, using terror and brutality as a means of defeating a foe. However as the Great Crusade wore on more and more of the initiates to the Legion were nothing but bloodthirsty killers like Acerbus. Sahaal represents what the Night Lords were supposed to be, not what they ended up becoming. Sahaal doesn't just murder for the fun of it like the Legion now does. He could no more join them than fight alongside Grey Knights, both options are closed to him.

 

The book fully explains this in the dialogue and thoughts of Sahaal.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

my problem with the night lords is their actions before the heresy erupted were as terrible as the actions of the soon to be traitor legions. they were murderers, holding military campaigns not for any strategic goals, just to implement terror on a massive scale. the HH was simply a convient excuse for them to go even crazier. as Sahaal was to be the legions ruler after the death of cruze, i think it is impossible to think he would have any other goal than to continue the murderous ways of the NLs. proud night lords is like honorable jack the ripper.

 

Thats not what the book implies though. For Sahaal murder and atrocity were only ever tools to accomplish a goal, murder for murder's sake was utterly unknown to him. Whereas for the rest of the Legion terror was the goal not the means. Sahaal embodied the tenets of the Night Haunter, using terror and brutality as a means of defeating a foe. However as the Great Crusade wore on more and more of the initiates to the Legion were nothing but bloodthirsty killers like Acerbus. Sahaal represents what the Night Lords were supposed to be, not what they ended up becoming. Sahaal doesn't just murder for the fun of it like the Legion now does. He could no more join them than fight alongside Grey Knights, both options are closed to him.

 

The book fully explains this in the dialogue and thoughts of Sahaal.

 

i have read the book, and thought it was pretty good.

that said, i take the words of a creature like Sahaal with a strong dose of salt, for his perspective would of course paint himself in the better light. while the last recruits of the NL were little more than bloodthirsty killers, their orders had to come from somewhere, and as Sahaal was Cruze's 2nd, i cannot believe he had no hand in their actions. maybe a 10,000 yr nap and the utter perversion of your former legion might change your perspective, but before that nap he was as guilty as the rest of the NL.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Hobo Willie]

Well, Kieran, it is well known your disdain for all the various traitor Legions. Not that I begrudge your opinions. They are traitors, after all.

 

It has always been my understanding that Nostromo almost immediately fell back into it's pre-Curze days as soon as he left for the Great Crusade and thus the Night Lords started pulling recruits from the rapists and murderers unknowingly, thinking they would be the same honest (through fear) people that Curze had left.

 

It is known that the excesses didn't start for quite a while into the Night Lords portion of the Crusade, and as Curze slowly became schizophrenic due to his horrific visions, as the rapists and murderers reached the upper echelons of power, they ordered the excesses and Curze allowed them.

 

Since Sahaal states in the book that he had been with Curze 'since the beginning,' I always assumed that meant that he was possibly a Terran-recruited Night Lord. Or a very early Nostromo recruit, before the majority were criminals. He states throughout the book that he believed the actions to have been sanctioned by the Emperor, as stated by Curze. The previous statement is absolutely certain. There's no disputing that, as his beliefs are his and not open to what may have occurred.

 

What you can dispute, is whether the actions were actually sanctioned and how stable Curze's mindset was when he gave the orders. There is no doubt that Sahaal believed they were and, thus, why he hated the Emperor and his servants so vehemently. Throughout the book, Sahaal is an anti-hero who succumbs to the darker natures of the Universe that loomed over the Night Lords Pre-Heresy only to climb back out at the end, free of any Chaos taint. It was stated before, and I wholeheartedly agree, that Sahaal's mindset and ideals represent exactly what the Night Lords were before they fell to the excesses.

[Legatus]

Two points about Sahal: First, the book strongly implies, especially at the end, that Sahal has been (possibly intentionally) deveived by Konrad Curze about the "true" nature of the Night Lords and the blame resting on the Emperor. When Sahal remembers what Konrad told him, the Night Lords did the cruel things on orders or sancioned by the emperor, and there had been several attempts to assassinade Curze before he finally allowed M'Shen to succeed. Curze also told him personally that the Night Lords used terror as a tool, and not purely for their own satisfaction. But later, Kreig Acerbus is amused about that and tells Sahal that he was deliberately being fooled by Curze. Since Acerbus has whole heartedly accepted chaos one might think that he is the one being deceitful, but his account is much more closer to what has previously been written about the Night Lords.

Second: Sahal deliberately utilizes the forces of chaos in the book, summoning his dark patrons help to shield himself from other psykers scrying attempts. Even if he later neglects that help, he is definitely not free of chaos taint.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

that said, i take the words of a creature like Sahaal with a strong dose of salt

 

And while the same might hold true for me, I take the words of a creature like Acerbus with even more salt. :)

[Eirik_Xenobane]

Reminds me of a Nazi, after the war trying to distance himseld from the atrocities. The Night Lords where a relefection of Nighthaunter and he was a sociopath that wrapped his atrocities in a thin veneer of jsutification.

[Jarulek]

Legatus pretty much hit the nail.Though I think his two trusted lieutenants resembled the two aspects of his personality. I think Curze sought out Sahaal for help in his sane moments, and Acerbus when he slipped into madness.

[Gideon Bane]

I've always pictured the Night Haunter as being very much like Rorschach in Space Marine form; so yeah, a psychopath. Not that a regular Space Marine isn't exactly.

[IhateSpaceMarines]

IMO, the thing with the huge debate over the Nightlords is that it comes down to 2 sides of the argument and thats generally how most people's views differ

 

A) He was indeed betrayed by the emperor, portrayed in the noble sacrificed way and so on and he was fighting his evil side always.

B ) He was completely mad and deranged, and he completely made up those stories to justify himself.

 

Though honestly, I think its both, if not a combination of both of some sort. With the Lord of the Night answering some questions and leaving me with even more questions, I think its quite ambigious as to the true nature of what really happened in The Night Haunter's mind.

 

I tend to lean more towards A), but I think there is more to The Night Haunter than we know, however if you take the B ) choice, then why did Zso survive in the end of the book?

[Legatus]

I would like to point out that Black Library novels are not the best source to answer any questions. The Index Astartes articles are the main source for the background for the primarchs and the horus heresy. If the novels paint a different picture, that is the interpretation of the events by that particular author. Rather, what he thinks would make an interesting and dramatic story.

[Hobo Willie]

The Index Astartes are nice, but very general. It is barely implied in the Night Lords IA that they were a backwater Legion reinforcing Imperial rule. Do you think Curze decided to do that? No, he had to have been ordered by the Emperor to do it. If the Emperor didn't like Lorgar's slow progress, I doubt he'd like an entire Legion deciding on their own to play mop-up for the other Legions.

 

Thus, if the Emperor ordered the Night Lords to reinforce Imperial rule and tithes, then it is entirely possibly that under the table he also asked/ordered Curze to dish out some of that Nostromo justice. Or just chose him for that theatre because he knew he would. Either way, the Index Astartes is extremely lacking in any fleshing out of this aspect and that's what the book does.

 

Also, the Index Astartes stated that the known galaxy feared the Night Lords so much that planetary governors would immediately stop all illegal activities and pay any outstanding tithes if they heard rumour of the Night Lords' arrival. This had to reach the ears of the Emperor. And yet, no recorded censure for this. Or, well anything. Despite Curze putting down Dorn hard, he was still part of the "Loyalist" strike force sent to destroy the traitors at Istvaan. Just from the Index Astartes, it implies the Emperor was okay with what the Night Lords were doing. I'm not saying that he was okay with the excesses, but merely the general practice. There's a good chance that he didn't even hear of the excesses or brushed them off as over-exaggerated rumour. Or expected the fall from grace due to the nature of the work and was going to make a public display of the Night Lords (see Speculation below).

 

I guess my point is thus: The Emperor in all probability ordered or asked the Night Lords to do what they did initially but, as the Legion filled with murderers and Curze went progressively crazier, the Night Lords kept taking it one step further. Thus Sahaal would be correct to an extent, as he might have been privy to the original orders and assumed they had kept coming, while Acerbus was privy to later aspects of the downward spiral and knew that there were no orders for the excesses. In this situation, I think both characters had a correct view of the Legion, just at different times in the Legions existence. It has already been stated, but Sahaal represented the Night Lords far before the Horus Heresy and Acerbus represents the Night Lords from the middle of their fall to depravity to current.

 

Speculation: It is possible that the II and the XI Legion were done the same way, each in turn. They could have had a specific purpose from the Emperor covertly and when they had served their purpose, the Emperor had them put down, damning them publicly for <insert vice here>. And it was merely the Night Lords turn on the chopping block right as the Heresy erupted.

[Rain]

I am probably just about alone in this, but I actually like the Acerbus side of the NL a lot more than the Sahaal side (which seems to just be him). Furthermore, the fact that Sahaal was basically manipulated and played for a fool throughout the book gives credence to the idea that he was likewise used as a tool by Night Haunter to safeguard the corona but otherwise stay out of the way with his silly ideals. Really, I just don't see a primarch appointing that bumbling coma-prone clown as his heir.

[Ashur]

Both visions can be right. Konrad Kurze could have been dragged into rebellion by his brothers. Since Lorgar planned Horus corruption, he may have plot to murder KC and let the emperor take the blame. KC was paranoid enough to fall for that.

[Inquisitor Engel]

Dorn assumed command of the Loyalists upon confirmation of Garro's news and the orders of Malcador, it was he who picked the seven legions sent to quell the Death Guard's, Emperor's Children's and Sons of Horus' rebellion.

 

Prior to the events of Isstvan, Night Haunter had been called to account, beaten Dorn to a pulp and imprisoned on the Phalanx. In 'The Dark King' he escapes, kills some of Dorn's "Templars" (Presumably First Company, under Sigismund) and some of Fulgrim's Phoenix Guard, placing this well in advance of any of the events in the Horus Heresy series, since Fulgrim's (and the Phoenix Guard don't go anywhere without him) whereabouts are entirely accounted for almost from Ullanor until Isstvan.

 

He then almost immediately escapes, makes it to his ship. Now, there's no solid indication that he immediately runs off and destroys Nostramo, but it's a good assumption.

 

Contrary to the Index Astartes, it would seem that Night Haunter was allowed to continue, hang out and function as Primarch of the Night Lords without so much as a slap on the wrist. Later on, Dorn, of all people, assigns him to go cut down Horus, Fulgrim and Mortarion.