Commissar Molotov Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 As some of you may've noticed, I've started a thread entitled Gene-seed and DIY. I've seen a number of posts recently asking questions about successor Chapters and what gene-seed is 'allowed' or permitted. I believe it woul dbe good to provide a guide which can answer the most common questions. I am also aware that there are many differing opinions among the DIY community, so I've also included Traitor Gene-seed, Records Missing and 13th/21st Founding Chapters. I will be up-front and say that these are initially my disjointed notes - the sections don't all read consistently, and partially that's because of compiled my work along with that of OwlandMoonGuy and Nine Breaker - both of whom deserve my thanks for helping me out. I hope to smooth things out over the next few days and to make the sections more consistent and readable. Which is where you guys come in. I want to make this a community resource for the Liber. I want this to read like a university/college-level essay. That means references. Referencing facts and sources provides Liber-ites with a place to go and read up on things if it interests them. It also shows we're not making things up. If you guys are interested in finding quotes and pertinent facts, or referencing information, all of it will prove highly worthwhile. I hope you find it interesting! - Mol. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Here ya go. Now we just need to find the references. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1696672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 Glad to have you aboard! A list of canon Ultramarines successors will prove very useful. The thread you linked to is definitely a useful starting point, but it has a number of difficult posts - in the sense that it doesn't list references and page numbers. The other thing I'm looking for vis-a-vis the Ultramarines is a categorical statement (or conflicting statements) saying just what proportion of Chapters descend from the Ultramarines. Then I can say "Two-thirds of Chapters..." or "Between 66% and 50%" and have the sources to back it up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1696677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barret Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Looking good thus far. Approaching it like a wikipedia article definitely helps lay down what we know for sure, and what we are assuming and conjecturing. One note on the Iron Hands... It's been a while since I read the IA, but I recall it being somewhat ambiguous as to whether or not there was a flaw in their gene-seed (causing the technophilia), and whether the obsessive bionic-ization was to cover that up. I'll double-check when I get home, unless someone beats me to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1696678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines pg 47: "The Ultramarines Legion is responsible for nearly 3/5ths of the gene-core of the current Space Marine Chapters." That was reference "2384646.M40" (I think that's 1100-ish years before the Battle Of Macragge) and we are currently circa "995999.M41" which is AGES and AGES later. In that time many many more Chapters have been founded with the Ultramarines gene-core. year of millennium.Mmillennium number 2384646.M40 995999.M41 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1696681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 Indeed - the 26th Founding was in the 700s of M41. What's the publication date of the third edition Codex? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1696687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 1998, reprint 2000-2001 Ok....gotta run out and grab food. My body is flipping out on me fairly badly and has me slightly concerned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1696689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 I've edited the Ultramarines section with the barebones - I've included your list from the other thread, but I need citations for most of them. I mean, I know some of them are Ultramarines successors, but citations improve the reliability and quality of our work. I've cited Warriors of Ultramar for the Mortifactors, but the Armageddon-3 website also included a reference. Unfortunately they got rid of the site, and I can't operate the wayback machine well enough to find the reference. (Sig?) I wish I still had my Codex: Ultramarines, because it would include a lot of the classic Chapters like the Black and White Consuls. Armageddon-3 would be useful as it also suggests that the Angels of Vigilance are Dark Angels successors. I've begun to edit the Dark Angels section and move it towards the direction I'm looking for. Ideally I'd like each of the nine loyalist gene-seeds to have a 'Known Genetic Issues' section, then a 'Can I make a.... Successor?' section before ending with a 'What should I be aware of...?" section, where we can talk about the legacies (genetic or not) of each gene-seed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1696707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultra1k Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 This is from 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, pg 9, published 1995 2nd founding chapters: Space Wolves: Wolf Brothers Ultramarines: Eagle Warriors Silver Eagles Doom Eagles Novamarines Patriarchs of Ulixis White Consuls Black Consuls Libators Inceptors Prators of Orpheus Genesis Aurora Dark Angels: Angels of Absolution Angels of redepmtion Angels of Vengenance Imperial Fists: Black Templars Crimson Fists Blood Angels: Angels Encarmine Angels Sanguine Angels Vermilion Iron Hands: Red Talons Brazen Claw Salamanders: (none known) Raven Guard: Black Guard Revilers Raptors I found other chapters in the codex, but didn't mention their founding or which chapter their gene-seed came from. Hope this helps. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1696799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund Himself Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I've cited Warriors of Ultramar for the Mortifactors, but the Armageddon-3 website also included a reference. Unfortunately they got rid of the site, and I can't operate the wayback machine well enough to find the reference. (Sig?) Doesn't mention the Ultramarines being the primogenitor. Ker-link. Armageddon-3 would be useful as it also suggests that the Angels of Vigilance are Dark Angels successors. Linky. Only suggests they are DA successors, as you said. Another section that would be good (though perhaps not for this Guide) would be fleet based chapters. Also, mentioning the Astartes Praeses would be good or providing a link to this to explain it. Linking to this article would be good in terms of explaining the Astartes organs. Perhaps discussing what the lack of this organs do to a chapter would be a good idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1696909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyoz Devastrius Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 The Emperor's Gift: The Gene-seed and Organs of the Astartes The pure gene seed seems to be a trend in the Liber and we rarely see a DIY chapter who's gene-seed has changed from that of their original legion which is actually on the contrary with the existing fluff. 4th ed Dark Angels Codex, 2006, page 18 As well as mutant implants, many Chapters have lost one or more types of gene-seed due to accident, genetic failure, or some other cause. Very few Chapters therefore possess all nineteen original implants. I think that minor mutations or missing organs are more of a rule than an exception, and the pure gene-seed would be restricted mostly to first and second founding and few other chapters. The Touch of Perfidy: The Gene-Seed of the Traitor Legions Its possible that there are some mutations in Traitor Legions gene-seed that make them more vulnerable to the whispers of chaos. 4th ed Dark Angels Codex, 2006, page 4 The Horus Heresy revealed weaknesses in the gene-seed of several of the early Space Marine Legions, which had been exacerbated by the need to keep the huge Space Marines Legions up to strength in the terrible wars being fought at the time. The insidious powers of Chaos had been able to manipulate this corruption to turn Horus and many of Space marines under his command against Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1696951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 The Emperor's Gift: The Gene-seed and Organs of the Astartes The pure gene seed seems to be a trend in the Liber and we rarely see a DIY chapter who's gene-seed has changed from that of their original legion which is actually on the contrary with the existing fluff. The degredation of the gene-seed will be mentioned in 'The Emperor's Gift' and then also the 'Summary and Conclusion'. Good spot, though. Sig - the Angels of Vigilance page is still useful, because I can cite that they're suspected DA successors. Thanks! Ultra1k - Thank you - that'll certainly prove useful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1697064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Trickster Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 First, I just noticed Ultra1k forgot the White Scars successors listed in the Codex Ultramarines: Marauders Rampagers Destroyers Storm Lords Then here are the references for the Dark Angels' entry (I can't give dates however since the french editions don't say when the books were printed): Angels of Vigilance (Suspected)[source?] Armaggedon3.com website (Already linked to by Sigismund) "one of the purest and least degraded of all"[source?] Index Astartes: Dark Angels (Index Astartes I, p22) Despite its' purity, [...] in the creation of chapters.[source?]Index Astartes: Dark Angels (Index Astartes I, p22) and Index Astartes: Relictors (geneseed section) "their names and when they were founded are unrecorded."[source?] Index Astartes: Dark Angels (Index Astartes I, p22) withdraw from active combat zones [...] in order to avoid scrutiny[source?] Couldn't find this one... There is however, p19 of the latest Codex a sentence which say (more or less since I retranslate from french) "In numerous occasions, the Dark Angels have avoided all direct contact with their allies to follow their own objectives while battle was raging."There may be more in the White Dwarf Eye of Terror articles but I don't have them handy... will refuse to fight alongisde armies that include alien races [...] or Abhumans [...][source?] Codex: Angels of Death, p 76 and Codex: Dark Angels (3rd Edition), p 5 And as far as the other geneseeds are concerned, well most of the sources you ask for are actually for the 2nd founding successors of the Legions and the source for this is either the "original" list from Codex: Ultramarines, p9 or the more readily available one from the Codex Space Marine (4th Ed), p8 (which however lists a little less than the "original" for the Ultra successors for example)... Well, and every other SM codex but the Space Wolves ones and the 3rd Ed DA and BA ones in fact! Do you really want to list all the sources for each one? :cuss I'll just make a "special list" for the Space Wolves though: Wolf Brothers[source?] originally in Codex: Space Wolves (2nd Ed), p9 and then in every SM Codex which gives a list of successors (that's all of them but the 3rd Ed SW, DA and BA ones) (Disbanded due to Genetic Instability)[source?] I couldn't find this one in neither of the SW Codices. The 2nd Ed one says they were "ill-fated" and the 3rd Ed one doesn't even mention them. The article in Index Astartes II doesn't mention them either. Maybe it's in the Lone Wolves WD article? Oh, and the the source for the Exorcists being 13th founding is the Armageddon3 website. >linky< And, a funny thing: the French edition of the Codex Ultramarines lists a few "other" 2nd fouding successor chapters: the Fire Eagles (instead of the Doom Eagles) for the UM and the Redemptors (instead of the Revilers) for the RG. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1697162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 Those are just the sources I'm asking for, though. If there's anything else that can improve the articles, don't hesitate to mention it. :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1697163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Can you compile a summary Pariah style at the top of the page so we can tell what has and hasn't been added? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1697671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 DARK ANGELS Angels Of Redemption (2nd Founding)(sources: 4th edition Codex Dark Angels pg 73) Angels Of Absolution (2nd Founding) (sources: 4th edition Codex Dark Angels pg 73) Angels Of Vengeance (2nd Founding) (sources: 4th edition Codex Dark Angels pg 73) The Disciples Of Caliban (sources: 4th edition Codex Dark Angels pg 74) Guardians Of The Covenant (sources: 4th edition Codex Dark Angels pg 74) The Consecrators (sources: 4th edition Codex Dark Angels pg 75) WHITE SCARS Marauders (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) Rampagers (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) Destroyers (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) Storm Lords (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) SPACE WOLVES Wolf Brothers[rejoined the Space Wolves] (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) IMPERIAL FISTS Black Templar (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) Crimson Fists (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) BLOOD ANGELS Angels Vermillion (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Blood Angels, pg 14) Angels Sanguine (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Blood Angels, pg 14) Angels Encarmine (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Blood Angels, pg 14) Blood Drinkers (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Blood Angels, pg 14) Flesh Tearers (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Blood Angels, pg 14) IRON HANDS Red Talons (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) Brazen Claws (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) ULTRAMARINES Novamarines (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) Patriarchs Of Ulixis (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) White Consuls (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) Black Consuls (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) Libators (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) Inceptors (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) Praetors Of Orpheus (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) Genesis Chapter (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) Eagle Warriors (2nd Founding) (Sources: 2nd edition Codex: Ultramarines, pg 9) Silver Eagles (2nd Founding) (Sources: 2nd edition Codex: Ultramarines, pg 9) Doom Eagles (2nd Founding) (Sources: 2nd edition Codex: Ultramarines, pg 9) Aurora (2nd Founding) (Sources: 2nd edition Codex: Ultramarines, pg 9) Sons Of Guilliman (Founding M33) (Sources: How To Paint Space Marine, pg 84, and WD248us "Index Astartes: Emperor's Shield") Silver Skulls (Sources: How To Paint Space Marine, pg 84) Nemesis (2nd Founding) (Sources: Chapter Approved 2001, pg??) Fire Hawks/Legion Of The Damned (M36, 21st (Cursed) Founding) (Sources: WD99uk?) SALAMANDERS n/a RAVEN GUARD Black Guard (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) Raptors/Raptor Legion (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) Revilers (2nd Founding) (Sources: 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 45) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1697712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Cambrius Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 According to Chapter Approved 2001, the Nemesis chapter were also UM successors in the 2nd founding. But they're not found in the Apocryphia of Davio so would they be null and void? Cambrius Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1697858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 Nope - you've got a source that lists them. :D I'd just need the publication dates for the Chapter Approved book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1697866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 2001???? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1697873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 After some discussion, it appears that the best way to do this may be to go through, Legion-by-Legion. I'm keen to have the nine loyalist Primarchs done before anything else. After that, we can go onto fancy things like Traitor Gene-seed. What I'm suggesting, therefore is that we start with the Dark Angels, and then get it to a state we're pretty much happy with. Then we move on to the White Scars, so on and so forth. The Dark Angels' post is here: Dark Angels: The Gene-Seed of Lion El'JonsonPrimarch: Lion El'Jonson Successor Chapters: Angels of Absolution[1], Angels of Redemption[1], Angels of Vengeance[1], Angels of Vigilance (Suspected)[2], Consecrators[1], Disciples of Caliban[1], Guardians of the Covenant[1]. Known Genetic Issues: 'There are no known aberrations in the Dark Angels' gene-seed which makes the reluctance of the High Lords of Terra to utilise it in the founding of new Chapters perplexing. No doubt there are other successor Chapters of the Dark Angels, but their names and when they were founded are unrecorded.'[3] The gene-seed of the Dark Angels is said to be "one of the purest and least degraded of all"[source?]. Despite its' purity, it seems the High Lords of Terra do not actively utilise Dark Angels gene-seed in the creation of chapters.[source?] The reasoning behind this is not clear, but it could be surmised that it they do not trust the Dark Angels and their secretive ways. Despite this, Dark Angels Chapter Master Anaziel petitioned the High Lords of Terra for a Chapter to be raised from the Dark Angels in .M37 - this request was granted, giving rise to the Disciples of Caliban[1]. Other DA successors have been founded but "their names and when they were founded are unrecorded."[source?] Given this framework, there is wide range of opportunities available for a Dark Angels-based DIY. Can I make a Dark Angels successor chapter? '...the High Lords of Terra [are reluctant] to sanction the use of Dark Angels geneseed in the creation of new Chapters.'[4] The Dark Angels and their descendents provide a very multi-faceted resource for DIY successors. The above quotes show that there are Dark Angels successors, although they would seem to be rare. Due to the history of the original Dark Angels legion, however, there are several important factors to consider when creating a chapter drawn from the gene-seed of the Lion. What do I have to take into account when making a DA successor? Combat Doctrine and Chapter Organization: It is possible that Dark Angels successors could utilise the army list present in Codex: Dark Angels, representing the chapter adopting a similar structure to their parent. It is worth noting, however, that many successor chapters would not have the sheer number of terminator suits to utilise a Deathwing Army-list (however, you're free to fluff it out!). Alternatively, a successor could take to the Codex Astartes, or utilise the chapter traits from Codex: Space Marines. The Unforgiven and the Fallen: The Dark Angels and their three successor chapters from the second founding are known collectively as the 'Unforgiven'. These chapters suffer the legacy of their fallen captain, Luther, who lead a faction of the original Dark Angels legion into rebellion during the Horus Heresy. To this day, remnants of those original defectors still exist in the galaxy and are known as 'The Fallen' -Chaos marines who once stood against their brethren during the great schism. Due to these past atrocities, the Unforgiven are especially independent and secretive Chapters. Any known attempt to reconnoiter protected information is shunned an expelled by any means. This is one of the key reasons behind the "Interrogator-Chaplains" present within the Dark Angels. Inquisitorial Scrutiny: It has been noted that Dark Angels are known to withdraw from active combat zones if they are confronted by Imperial Inquisitors or Missionaries, in order to avoid scrutiny[source?]. Chapters based on Dark Angels gene-seed may well be victim to similar Inquisitorial Investigation, and may also need to take similar precautionary measures. Abhumans and Mutants: Another key fact is that the Dark Angels are especially intolerant of non-humans and mutants, and will refuse to fight alongisde armies that include alien races (including 'benevolent' races such as the Kroot or Eldar) or Abhumans (such as Ratlings and Ogryns)[source?]. It is up to you whether your chapter follows similar doctrines - but if not, remember to explain why not! :D Rivalry with the Space Wolves: Due to an incident between the primarchs of each Chapter during the Horus Heresy, the great rivalry of “The Lion and the Wolf” has existed ever since. The repercussion of this ancient fight is felt by every descendent marine and expressed openly by all related Chapters on both sides. When these two Chapters cross paths this can manifest in many ways, open aggression being among them. Whenever the Dark Angels and Space Wolves serve together in battle, a champion from each army is chosen for an honour duel.[5][6] Whether or not your chapter also has an emnity towards the Space Wolves is your decision. It's up to the Space Wolves how they feel about your guys... Temporary Bibliography: [1] Codex: Dark Angels, PP.74-75 (2006) [2] http://web.archive.org/web/20060827024927/.../vigilance.html , accessed 17th September 2008 [3] Index Astartes: Dark Angels [4] Index Astartes: Relictors [5] Codex: Dark Angels, P.20 (2006) [6] http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/...els-killteam/1/ , accessed 17th September 2008 I've not included the stuff Nash very thoughtfully found for us. What I'd like to do is to integrate the quotes into the text as best as possible - that helps us with a fluid writing style. It's going to need references, though. I can get much of it from the IA article, but I'm also after some discussion. Especially in the "What should I take into account..." section. What advice would you give someone planning on using DA gene-seed? Don't forget that it's not just genetic issues, but cultural ones. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1697888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund Himself Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Wasn't there something in the most recent Dark Angel codex about all the Dark Angel successors being the Unforgiven, not just the second founding chapters? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1698385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted September 18, 2008 Author Share Posted September 18, 2008 I believe so - there's also something that "all" successors maintain a Deathwing and Ravenwing, which'll also have to go into the "things to take into account" section. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1698399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asmodeus' Swordhand Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 Some of the sources have links that redirect to the new GW site, and don't work, however I think you can still use them as sources. The info regarding many of them is no longer available online though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1760122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostLegion Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 Mol, Not wanting to throw too big a wrentch into your workings here, but have you taken the time to look at the lexicanum and the work they have done in tracing who is who and what is what in the founding and successors? (Link for listing) They have a small list of references (no pages iirc) and an organization pattern that could help you a touch. Additionally, the individual chapter pages tend to have more page reference information on their citations. Just a thought. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1760156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asmodeus' Swordhand Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 I enjoy the current Formatting actually. easy access, and very helpful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146313-discussion-thread-gene-seed-and-diy/#findComment-1760434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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