Question about Wounds and LOS

[WolfLordLars]

Ok, call me confused. :D

 

In the old days, if you had a situation like p25 in the rulebook (would allocation) you would just roll them all and remove troops based on how many failed saves. Using that example, thats 1 dead and 10 wounds... say.. only 2 dont save. So, you remove 3 models. In 4th, your opponent could force you to roll a save for one specific model, lets say the ML, and he dies. So, you remove him and the two basic marines (one AP1, the other from a failed save), leaving you with the Sgt and 1 ML.

 

Now, if I am understanding this right, if you have complex units (and being Space Wolves, we ALWAYS do), it works differently. Lets use that same example, except the two ML troops are PW, and the Sgt is a Wolf Guard.

 

So, you have 10 wounds and 1 AP1 wound. You can allocate 2 wounds to each model, plus the extra one (the AP1 wound in this case). That means two Grey Hunters get 4 wounds + 1 AP1 wound. Two GH with PW get 4 wounds. The WG gets 2 wounds.

 

Now, lets assume that the WG saves, as do the PW models. The regular GH dont fare so well. They fail all four wounds, plus the AP1 wound.

 

Does that mean that just those two models are removed (which is how it seems to be reading), or do you remove one for the AP1 wound, another for a failed save, and then apply the other 3 wounds to the rest of the pack?

 

Just seems kinda cheap.. I mean, you could take 30 wounds to a 10 model pack, apply 3 to each model, 9 of the 10 save their 3 wounds, but one model fails all 3, yet only that model is removed?

 

 

Now, what if you dont have enough wounds for the full pack? Say, a 10 model pack, with only 9 wounds. Do you just roll 9 saves and then remove whoever you want? Or, do you have to allocate those 9 wounds before you roll?

 

 

Please let me know one way or another, as it will make a huge difference when next I play.

 

 

 

 

My LOS question has to do with partial cover. Here was the situation:

 

There was a building (so, treated like a tank) which a group of orks with big guns were in. They decided to go to the top. The player placed them in the center of the building, so that when you looked at them to their target (in this case, a pack of GH) only 2 of the 5 models could even see my GH pack. The other 3 models were blocked by the building they were standing on. How does that work?

 

Later, that same unit fired at my LRE. They could all see it, but those same 3 models could only see 'half' due to their building being in the way. Is that cover?

[Vassakov]

Ok, call me confused. :D

 

In the old days, if you had a situation like p25 in the rulebook (would allocation) you would just roll them all and remove troops based on how many failed saves. Using that example, thats 1 dead and 10 wounds... say.. only 2 dont save. So, you remove 3 models. In 4th, your opponent could force you to roll a save for one specific model, lets say the ML, and he dies. So, you remove him and the two basic marines (one AP1, the other from a failed save), leaving you with the Sgt and 1 ML.

 

Now, if I am understanding this right, if you have complex units (and being Space Wolves, we ALWAYS do), it works differently. Lets use that same example, except the two ML troops are PW, and the Sgt is a Wolf Guard.

 

So, you have 10 wounds and 1 AP1 wound. You can allocate 2 wounds to each model, plus the extra one (the AP1 wound in this case). That means two Grey Hunters get 4 wounds + 1 AP1 wound. Two GH with PW get 4 wounds. The WG gets 2 wounds.

 

Now, lets assume that the WG saves, as do the PW models. The regular GH dont fare so well. They fail all four wounds, plus the AP1 wound.

 

Does that mean that just those two models are removed (which is how it seems to be reading), or do you remove one for the AP1 wound, another for a failed save, and then apply the other 3 wounds to the rest of the pack?

 

Just seems kinda cheap.. I mean, you could take 30 wounds to a 10 model pack, apply 3 to each model, 9 of the 10 save their 3 wounds, but one model fails all 3, yet only that model is removed?

 

 

Now, what if you dont have enough wounds for the full pack? Say, a 10 model pack, with only 9 wounds. Do you just roll 9 saves and then remove whoever you want? Or, do you have to allocate those 9 wounds before you roll?

 

 

Please let me know one way or another, as it will make a huge difference when next I play.

 

In this instance I believe you are correct in all cases. It is a rare event however, as in several games I have only encountered this twice. Although the situtation you describe is possible, it is very, very unlikely.

 

My LOS question has to do with partial cover. Here was the situation:

 

There was a building (so, treated like a tank) which a group of orks with big guns were in. They decided to go to the top. The player placed them in the center of the building, so that when you looked at them to their target (in this case, a pack of GH) only 2 of the 5 models could even see my GH pack. The other 3 models were blocked by the building they were standing on. How does that work?

 

Later, that same unit fired at my LRE. They could all see it, but those same 3 models could only see 'half' due to their building being in the way. Is that cover?

 

You get 4+ Cover saves in the first instance, as more than 50% of his unit couldn't see a majority of your unit (3+ if it was a reinforced building.) In the second instance, you get a 4+ save because more than 50% of his unit couldn't see the whole vehicle.

 

Thats my understanding of the rules.

[WolfLordLars]

So, if there are more wounds than models in the unit, you have the potential to discard several? That seems... off. Its almost so that you WANT to get shot at with alot of things from the same unit. Or, you discard wounds to models that are already dead (from AP wounds).

[Max_Dammit]

If i read your question correct than no

 

I see it this way

 

You have 4 GH bolter and 2 PF and HQ

 

If you get 10 wounds one being AP1

 

You give your GH the AP1 wound (no save so he's dead) and give everybody one wound and the remaining 3 on the normal GH's

 

Nou you roll all the Dice for the normal GH's as one so thats 6 dice at once, every failed wound is one mini gone (even if the 2 dice where on the same mini. role 2 dice for the PF mini's and 1 for the HQ

 

 

You role for every weapon setup of unit independent, so if you got a unit with a lot of different setups, and you get a lot of normal and AP1 wounds you can give 2 AP1 wounds to the same unit but only if he is the only one carrying that kind of kit.

[Lord Howland Greywolf]

Actually you remove those that cannot be saved (Ap1 hits) and then alocate wounds.

an easy way to solve this is to say that if you take more wounds than there are basic (run of the mill) troops then you alocate the remaining wounds on those who are not basic. it works quiker and avoids all the fuss.

[Vassakov]

Actually you remove those that cannot be saved (Ap1 hits) and then alocate wounds.

an easy way to solve this is to say that if you take more wounds than there are basic (run of the mill) troops then you alocate the remaining wounds on those who are not basic. it works quiker and avoids all the fuss.

 

I'm sorry, but that is wrong. More fair, but nevertheless it's wrong. You allocate ALL the wounds by batch of identical models, then roll for saves. So if your squad took 14 wounds, and 8 of them were distributed amongst the 4 Bolter guys and you failed 7, you would still only lose those 4. Even if the only AP1 wounds were in that batch - it might be an automatic fail, but it's allocated at the same time.

 

Them's that breaks.

[Crimson Devil]

Vassakov has it right.

 

You must always allocate wounds, regardless of how many wounds the unit takes. Each different model type (gear or profile), must receive a wound before receiving a second. How you allocate wounds is completely up to you. If you take more wounds than are in the unit then each model type takes his own wounds, so it is possible to have the special weapon fail two wounds and only lose one model. Fail two wounds on a group with the same gear and profile, then you lose two models. Pairing up AP1 wounds with normal wounds or putting both plasma shots on the same guy is okay too.

 

LOS:

If the unit was IN the building then 2 models can fire per fire point. The number of fire points is suppose to be agree upon before the game started. Page 79.

 

If the unit was ON the building then only those with actual line of sight could shoot.

[Max_Dammit]

If the unit was ON the building then only those with actual line of sight could shoot.

And that means NO SHOOTING TROUGH THE FLOOR

[Wolf89]

I think my favorite thing about the new wound allocation is for our WGBG's in TDA... let me explain the scenario.

 

Say you're facing 13th company (don't ask me why just go along with it) and a Grey slayer squad shoots at your TDA WGBG's (5 TDA total) with 8 rapid firing bolters and 2 rapid firing plasma guns.

 

Assume 3 plasma guns hit and wound and 8 bolters wound.

 

You would do the following to ensure the surviving of plasma shots:

 

place a plasma wound on TDA 1

place a bolter wound on TDA 2,3,4,5

place a plasma wound on TDA 1 (up to 2 AP2 on one model now)

place a bolter wound on TDA 2,3,4,5

place a plasma wound on TDA 1 (now up to 3 AP2 on one model)

 

Since our WGBG all have different wargear (at least mine always do) I can allocate all 3 plasmagun wounds on ONE terminator just because my opponent fired his bolters as well, if he hadn't fired his bolters I'd have to allocate the 3 plasmagun wounds to 3 separate TDA WGBG... cheeky huh?

 

So this actually happend (it's why I'm saying it) and I roll for my 2 bolter saves (2+'s) for 4 of my WGBG in TDA and 3 plasma saves (5+'s) for my 1 WGBG in TDA. I ended up saving all the bolter saves, and rolling two 3's and one 4 so he basically got hosed. Had he not fired the bolters, I would have lost 2 more WGBG in TDA. Needless to say he was upset. because next turn came a hail of assault cannon and combi-plas fire into that squad. :cuss

 

Also, Vassakov is correct, allocate all wounds first, so if you take more wounds than your squad number and you have AP1, you can put a wound on the AP1 so long as there isn't a same wargeared and type model that could loose a wound.

 

As per Los, Crimson Devil has it on the nose.

 

Welcome to 5th ed. Lars, here, have some sangria... it's what we drink now...

[WolfLordLars]

Wow... just... wow....

 

Wounds - That is BEYOND cheesey, and its 100% in the rules. We were doing it the old (fair) way with wounds, which was totally inaccurate.

 

I cant believe that being shot alot gives you THAT much of an advantage. Guess they want this to be a CC edition.

 

Well, when in rome... someone pour me a glass of wine to go with this fine, grade-a cheese....

 

 

LOS - That was how I thought it was supposed to work. He didnt want to move them any closer, but I pointed out that only a few models could see over the building. We let it fly, first real 5th ed game, but I will point that out for future reference.

 

If the unit was ON the building then only those with actual line of sight could shoot.

And that means NO SHOOTING TROUGH THE FLOOR

 

Well, hold on. The rules say that as long as half the unit can see the target, the whole unit can shoot, but that unit gets a cover save... if I am reading it right. So, if three of his five or two of four can see my unit, then I get a cover save from his building?

 

Cover rules are somewhat confusing to me now.

[Vassakov]

Well, it's only really hugely cheesey if you can do it in such a way that allows you to take multiple AP1/2 wounds on a single model, with the rest getting saves. This is a fairly rare circumstance to be honest.

 

Also, it means your special guys - sergants, Heavies etc in a squad are singled out. Theoritically, you can hit a squad and only kill the special dudes. More likely than the aforementioned "4 plasma wounds on one grunt" scenario. So shooting is still deadly, it all balances out.

[Wolf89]

Well, it's only really hugely cheesey if you can do it in such a way that allows you to take multiple AP1/2 wounds on a single model, with the rest getting saves. This is a fairly rare circumstance to be honest.

 

Also, it means your special guys - sergants, Heavies etc in a squad are singled out. Theoritically, you can hit a squad and only kill the special dudes. More likely than the aforementioned "4 plasma wounds on one grunt" scenario. So shooting is still deadly, it all balances out.

 

Well my Gh's are always with pw/pf, plasma guns, plasma pistols, some with frags and some without so I have the most different wargear in a normal tac squad I can, so I can pull out a normal guy just because he has frags or doesn't, etc. B)

 

This came up a LOT in ard boyz, it should come up a lot, every time a squad takes shots it has to allocate for the most part.

[WolfLordLars]

Ok, new situation... as this will probably happen on Friday with my next game.

 

Lets say I have a unit of Grey Hunters (10 - 7 with Bolters, 1 with Melta, 2 with power weapons) that gets charged by a big mob of ork boyz.

 

Now, after all is said and done with my turn, I get attacked back and have 14 wounds to save. How exactly do I allocate them? Is it to individual models, or clusters of troops? Let me show you how I allocate them:

 

GH-B1 - 2

GH-B2 - 2

GH-B3 - 2

GH-B4 - 2

GH-B5 - 1

GH-B6 - 1

GH-B7 - 1

GH-Melta - 1

GH-PW1 - 1

GH-PW2 - 1

 

So, would I roll 11 dice at once for the bolter grey hunters, or would I roll each wound individually for each model? I think the rules seem to imply you roll them individually..

 

To go with that line of reasoning, lets say B1 and B2 save both wounds. B3 and B4 fail both of their saves. Are just B3 and B4 removed? That seems to be what the rules imply, but man... that seems cheap as all get out.

 

Just want to make sure I am reading this right. Thats how it seems to be implied in the rules, so read it over and tell me if it sounds like that to you too. Against orks I dont tend to suffer much shooting, but I got hammered in CC. I was rolling 25+ saves at a time against my blood claws last game, and so the squad died quickly. The new wound allocation rules are going to make it so that a small group of surviving models can hold on for a VERY long time.

 

 

 

Oh, and one more question - Lets use the above example. Assume every other model made the save, except for B3 and B4, who failed two saves each.

 

Is that 2 wounds for the purpose of combat resolution, or 4?

[Wolf89]

Well in your situation you'd roll 11 wounds together, because those are the same wargear exactly so if 3 and 4 failed both saves you actually loose 4 models, just like in 4th.

 

The cheezy way I was showing ONLY works, I can't stress this enough, ONLY works for models with DIFFERENT wargear.

 

So if you put 2 wounds on the melta guy and he failed both you only kill him.

[Ullr Direfang]

Thats a hole different ball game, here you can take away what ever model you want, even the ones not engaged.

Only IC can and must be singled out

 

this is correct, though i do believe that if a unit with a IC takes more wounds then the unit can handle they go to the IC, or at least that was what i was told at the 'ard boyz.

 

but the shooting part came up a lot, many people, including me, fired weapons separately so they would take saves for each weapon i fired (ex. 2x plasma guns take your saves, then lasguns take your saves, then grenade launcher take your saves, and finally HB take your saves. if this is wrong please let me know.)

[Wolf89]

but the shooting part came up a lot, many people, including me, fired weapons separately so they would take saves for each weapon i fired (ex. 2x plasma guns take your saves, then lasguns take your saves, then grenade launcher take your saves, and finally HB take your saves. if this is wrong please let me know.)

 

This is wrong, you roll all the hits and wounds, then the unit you shot at takes the saves from the squad that shot at it.

 

As for combat, if you attack the IC you can only kill the IC, if you attack the squad, you can only kill the squad. If it's a retinue (storm claws with wolf lord, fenrisian wolves with wolf lord/WGBL/Wolf priest, WGBG with any HQ (minus ven. dread of course) and so on then it's counted as an upgrade in HtH and you can't single out anyone in the squad.

[Max_Dammit]

Thats a hole different ball game, here you can take away what ever model you want, even the ones not engaged.

Only IC can and must be singled out

 

this is correct, though i do believe that if a unit with a IC takes more wounds then the unit can handle they go to the IC, or at least that was what i was told at the 'ard boyz.

 

but the shooting part came up a lot, many people, including me, fired weapons separately so they would take saves for each weapon i fired (ex. 2x plasma guns take your saves, then lasguns take your saves, then grenade launcher take your saves, and finally HB take your saves. if this is wrong please let me know.)

 

Sorry I took away my line because i was wrong

[Ullr Direfang]

QUOTE (Ullr Direfang @ Sep 17 2008, 07:17 PM) *

but the shooting part came up a lot, many people, including me, fired weapons separately so they would take saves for each weapon i fired (ex. 2x plasma guns take your saves, then lasguns take your saves, then grenade launcher take your saves, and finally HB take your saves. if this is wrong please let me know.)

 

 

This is wrong, you roll all the hits and wounds, then the unit you shot at takes the saves from the squad that shot at it.

 

well it's good to know that the whole store where i was was doing it wrong.... if i was the only on pushing this i would have felt bad, but once again, i "trust people who play more then me and in this case, they were wrong.

[Wolf89]

QUOTE (Ullr Direfang @ Sep 17 2008, 07:17 PM) *

but the shooting part came up a lot, many people, including me, fired weapons separately so they would take saves for each weapon i fired (ex. 2x plasma guns take your saves, then lasguns take your saves, then grenade launcher take your saves, and finally HB take your saves. if this is wrong please let me know.)

 

 

This is wrong, you roll all the hits and wounds, then the unit you shot at takes the saves from the squad that shot at it.

 

well it's good to know that the whole store where i was was doing it wrong.... if i was the only on pushing this i would have felt bad, but once again, i "trust people who play more then me and in this case, they were wrong.

 

Same reason when half our store forgot to use 'night fight' on the 3rd mission it equaled out.

 

It's hard to get a rule wrong by us, we have 3 lawyers and an English professor that play constantly, that always make sure the rules are played correctly.

 

It's not a good day when they get into arguments... it usually ends about an hour later with the 4 of them split down the middle. ;)

[WolfLordLars]

Ohhh... I see it in there. So, the GH with bolters would all get one batch of saves, the two power weapons GH would get another, etc.

 

So, whats the call on providing minute wargear differences with wolf guards to produce a result like yours? Cheesey as hell, or only somewhat so? I often run with a pack of Wolf guards in a drop pod, which only have two alike models.. I might modify their CC weapons so that I have 5 models that are different.

[Vanger]

Ohhh... I see it in there. So, the GH with bolters would all get one batch of saves, the two power weapons GH would get another, etc.

 

So, whats the call on providing minute wargear differences with wolf guards to produce a result like yours? Cheesey as hell, or only somewhat so? I often run with a pack of Wolf guards in a drop pod, which only have two alike models.. I might modify their CC weapons so that I have 5 models that are different.

This isn't cheesy at all, or maybe, but other armies can do the same or even better! CSM terminators, with all diferent weapons (CC or Combi bolters, you name it) can do the same game of making wounds vanish, but the orkz do it best! Take a unit of Meganobz with all different combi weapons, now you can do the same allocating wounds game, but because they have 2 wounds each they can soak up more fire (which isn't Instant Killing of course) like a sponge.

 

Just to give you an example:

 

There are 3 different armed Meganobz, they get say 7 bolter wounds and 3 plasma wounds, the ork player could allocate it the following way:

 

Meganob1 - 1 plasma, 2 bolter

Meganob2 - 1 plasma, 2 bolter

Meganob3 - 1 plasma, 1 bolter

 

In this case all meganobz got 1W because the complex unit rule preceedes the rule that whole models have to be removed :) So next time watch it who you call cheesy ;)

[Wolf89]

Ohhh... I see it in there. So, the GH with bolters would all get one batch of saves, the two power weapons GH would get another, etc.

 

So, whats the call on providing minute wargear differences with wolf guards to produce a result like yours? Cheesey as hell, or only somewhat so? I often run with a pack of Wolf guards in a drop pod, which only have two alike models.. I might modify their CC weapons so that I have 5 models that are different.

 

My most common WGBG in TDA squad looks like so

 

1 AC\CF, runic charm...etc.

1 AC\PF, runic charm... etc.

1 combi-plas\power weapon, runic charm... etc.

1 combi-plas\power weapon, runic charm, wolf tail talisman... etc.

 

just that one point wolf tail talisman has just saved my other "alike" model from a plasmay death... it's not cheezy, as others have said, ork nobs, chaos terminators, etc. all have this ability as well.

[Grey Mage]

I like the new rules really...

 

Does it mean that making certain youve killed a squad is tougher now? Yeah... pretty much. But it also shows the vagarities of war alot better I thought. How often have you heard/read a peice of fluff where one guy lived, no one knows how, and ended up doing something cool... or atleast living 15 minutes longer than his buddies?

 

Before it was... "Wow! they made alot of armor saves." Now it was just that one guy. After all, if the guy next to you gets shot 10 times and one of them goes through his bulletproof vest, then did you die? I hope not!

[JMarv]

I think I have something to add about the Loota scenario on top of the building. (Sorry, my quote-fu is terrible)

 

If the building has been agreed upon beforehand as obeying the new building rules as a stationary vehicle I'm not sure if LOS comes into play even when you can clearly see the models standing on top of the building.

 

In the rules for buildings there are instructions for when troops take to the parapets it grants a +1 on the damage roll for the building. These troops cannot be assaulted without first destroying the building.

 

I guess it ends up dependant on how you classified the building before the game, but I believe you can now have troops on parapets count as inside the building.

 

Read over that section and let me know what you all think.

 

I know I had some weird games with my 13th wanting to climb the building and clear out some scout snipers and then realizing since we declared that command building with an AV I had to destroy the "transport" forcing the scouts to disembark in front of me in order to get at them.

[Wolf89]

I know I had some weird games with my 13th wanting to climb the building and clear out some scout snipers and then realizing since we declared that command building with an AV I had to destroy the "transport" forcing the scouts to disembark in front of me in order to get at them.

 

But then the scouts could only shoot through 2 ports, so only 2 could shoot, then if you blew up the vehicle you had it surrounded and the scouts inside would die.