docbp87 Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 I've been out of the hobby for a lot of years (5-6?) and in coming back to it, having missed all of 4th edition, I am looking at playing a Word Bearers army (1000-ish pts. to start a collection, lots of lesser Daemons and Chaos marine squads) But I've run into what seems like a small snag to me... How the heck do you guys play a Dark Apostle (since fluff wise, that's a good part of why I'm drawn to the army)? What HQ choice do you use, and what equipment do you give him to represent the Dark Apostle? There were (I may be crazy, but I swear I'm not) rules for one at some point in a White Dwarf, or some expansion codex, but obviously those rules are long invalid. A Chaos Lord, with a Daemon weapon (Accursed Crozius) or a Sorceror? Daemon Prince? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artemis360 Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Well, if you take the lord and hence daemon weapon option, you can then choose what mark to take and so your daemon weapon becomes a little more fluffy. I guess strictly the most fluffy is the chaos undivided weapon, which gives +1 strength. Personally I'd prefer a sorcerer with warptime any day of the week. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1699475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 There were rules for it in the last codex, but currently there are no official rules for any divergence on the part of any chaos legion, we are completely homogeneous. That said, many people use mark of tzeentch and a demon weapon to represent the increased invulnerable save of the crozius as well as the obvious properties of a demon weapon. The problem with this is obviously that WB should not have god aligned marks, so others just use undivided lords with demon weapons, in any case, it's up to your discretion how you represent it as "Dark Apostles" no longer strictly exist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1699477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarulek Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 It's not that obvious that Dark Apostles don't have marks. Fluff indicates the the use of different marks. Read "Dark Apostle" by Anthony Reynolds. Probably the most fluffy builds are Lord with Undivided Daemon Weapon or a Lord with Mark of Tzeentch and Power Weapon. I have used both. If you want a pure undivided list use the first one, it fits codex-only fluff. Some people use marks and other Daemon Weapons to enhance the power of their lord even more and come up wih lousy excuses to justify their selections. Another option is using a Sorceror with warptime.The Force Weapon would make a good alternative for a crozius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1699560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstorm Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Sorcerer with force weapon being the crozius, warptime rerolls being his unyielding faith in the dark gods, and maybe the mark of tzeentch for the 4+ inv, its about as close as you could get nowadays im afraid. id hate to play Word Bearers in this addition, more so than even IW or AL/NL etc, no Dark Apostle, and lesser daemons are strictly average at best.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1699577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 It's not that obvious that Dark Apostles don't have marks. Fluff indicates the the use of different marks. Read "Dark Apostle" by Anthony Reynolds. it doesnt not indicate the worship [and a sing of that is having the mark of a god] of singular gods . whats more important all the other fluff sources we have [not only those from BL] sugest that the WB are highlly intolerant of worshipers of single chaos gods and that they totally dont accept in in their legion . Is there a good way to represnt a WB cardinal or apostol with rules in the new dex ? no . But thats a sad true for many things . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1699604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 I keep reading "daemon waepon" or "force weapon", when IIRC the dark apostle in the last codex was armed with a simple powerweapon. In the last Codex, you were creating a dark apostle by equiping a chaos lord or leutnant with an accursed crozius, which was a powerweapon and included a 4+ invulnerable save. Word Bearers also had a special ability available that would make all models within 6" fearless, but that was optional. As much as I understand the desdire for a more potent weapon for your commander than a mere powerweapon, that's what the dark apostle was carrying in the last codex. So you might as well give him a powerfist or lightning claws and call those "accursed crozius". Making a dark apostle based on the version from the last codex (the only official rules I remember) is as simple as taking a chaos lord and giving him a powerweapon. The lord already has a 5+ invulnerable save and is fearless, so he's basically done. You could also give him the mark of tzeentch to get that 4+ save, but don't call it "mark of tzeentch" obviously. Put him with a unit of possessed to represent his aura or inspiring presence that makes them fearless and gives them the enhanced stats (strength 5 and 5+ invulnerable save) instead of it being daemonic possessions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1699612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Accursed crozius was indeed a daemon weapon; says so right next to the name. All of its effects included: power weapon, 4+ inv, personal icon. You did still have to roll for mastery tests when causing wounds with it. So using a daemon weapon now that gives +D6 attacks instead is alright. Power weapon is alright. Force weapon is a bit over the top, although practically pointless in 5th edition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1699787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 So using a daemon weapon now that gives +D6 attacks instead is alright. Well, that's about as alright as if with the last codex you would have equipped your lord with a darkblade or wraith axe and called him a dark apostle. As long as it is a daemon weapon it is fine. But that kind of makes the whole point of trying to emulate the previous rules of the model moot. Just use any model with any gear and call it a dark apostle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1699822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Just use any model with any gear and call it a dark apostle. Ant that my friend is part of the reasoning/theme behind the latest C:CSM and C:SM! Anything is anything! Nothing means something, and vice versa! It's says he's black legion-but wait! He could be a great warrior with similar skills from a different legion! Why restrict Marneus Calgar to the Ultramarines when everyone else wants him too! ;) Which all = lame. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1699846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 You can use "counts as" to make the army more fluffy, or you can use "counts as" to make it more powerful while pretending that it is also fluffy. That's true for chaos just as it is for the new marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1699856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 I totally agree. I prefer the former in my own armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1699863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
styx Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Well, there is a few ways you could build the Dark Appostale: Demon Prince: That has acended to demonhood. Chaos Lord: with demon weapon, the basic option is the best IMO if you go this route. Most of the other marks are not real fititng short of Tzeench but the weapon is a bit strange. My choice: Chaos Sorcerer: I use the force weapon as the crozius, I tend to take the Mark of Slaanesh and Lash of Submission, this is simulate the demagouge. I usually add one squad of Slaanesh marked troops among the army so he can join them for some protection. Other people take Warptime, this works similar to the Chapalin's ability in a Marine army but just for the character. The fluff also says they tend to use sorcerers to help divine the future which is always something to consider... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1699906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
docbp87 Posted September 19, 2008 Author Share Posted September 19, 2008 Just use any model with any gear and call it a dark apostle. Ant that my friend is part of the reasoning/theme behind the latest C:CSM and C:SM! Anything is anything! Nothing means something, and vice versa! It's says he's black legion-but wait! He could be a great warrior with similar skills from a different legion! Why restrict Marneus Calgar to the Ultramarines when everyone else wants him too! :) Which all = lame. Yeah, I noticed that almost immediately upon my return to the hobby. There aren't even legion specific rules anymore? Gah! Talk about disappointing/boring! My choice: Chaos Sorcerer: I use the force weapon as the crozius, I tend to take the Mark of Slaanesh and Lash of Submission, this is simulate the demagouge. I usually add one squad of Slaanesh marked troops among the army so he can join them for some protection. This is an interesting idea, but I really dislike the idea of marked units in a WB army. Seems totally unfluffy (I know there are some stories to back it up, but nothing that has ever "worked" for me). I guess Chaos lord with Daemon weapon is the way to go. B) Thanks for the input, fellas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1699947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 A slightly alternative route I've ventured a bit into as of the past week is to play a Black Templar force with possibly some added Witch Hunter zealot mobs or whatever they were called and alot of Neophytes everywhere. The zealots would be traitor guard / random cultists while the Neophytes would be mutants with extra armor plates or scales or whatever in addition to their flak armors. I'm still poking about a bit but theoreticly and with alot of "counts as" it should work very good. TDA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1699992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarulek Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 @ TDA I like that idea. People tend to forget that Word Bearers also made heavy use of cultist, often surpassing the number of Marines. An ideal WB army to me would be a Dark Apostle as an HQ with a coven of chosen/possessed, a squad of Anointed (Termies) as elite, 2 marine squads as troops and the rest of the army being made up of cultists, daemons, possessed and defilers. Does anyone remember the part from "Dark Apostle" where they chose some of the cultists that had proven themselves worthy and let them be possessed by daemons? Evil as hell... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1700310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Gothard Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Well, that's about as alright as if with the last codex you would have equipped your lord with a darkblade or wraith axe and called him a dark apostle. As long as it is a daemon weapon it is fine. But that kind of makes the whole point of trying to emulate the previous rules of the model moot. Just use any model with any gear and call it a dark apostle Who says we're trying to emulate previous rule sets? We're trying to emulate a Dark Apostle as it would be in the fluff. Is it fluffy for a Dark Apostle to bind a Daemon into his weapon for his own personal uses? Heck yes it is! I understand what you're trying to say, but there's no sense in gimping and army unnecessarily for fluffsake. Personally, when points allow, I use Chaos Lord: Daemonweapon, personal icon. Done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1703299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aarhus Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 The easiest way to mimic the previous Dark Apostle from the previous codex is as such: "Dark Apostle" (Chaos Lord) "Accursed Crozius" (Power Weapon) (Mark of Tzeentch) (Personal Icon) Anything more than that is stretching it, since this configuration is the base of exactly what a Dark Apostle was in the previous codex, aside from the whole "mace might crush my face" mastery check. Have him and/or his cronies riding around in vehicles with a lot of Dirge Casters. Thusly, you have a decently fluffy Word Bearers army! Cheers, Lawrence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1703938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Thusly, you have a decently fluffy Word Bearers army! "Dark Apostle" (Chaos Lord) "Accursed Crozius" (Power Weapon) (Mark of Tzeentch) (Personal Icon) :devil: fluffy , with a mark of tzeench? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1703987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
flintlocklaser Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 :devil: fluffy , with a mark of tzeench? The MoT fills in the Invulnerable save the 3.5 ed. Dark Apostles had. I know how you feel about 'counts as,' so we aren't gonna discuss that. But the MoT is the best game mechanics fit for that old rule using the new codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1704026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 If i would make a Dark Apostle again i'll just stick to Deamonweapon, personal icon. Maybe wings but thats it no fancy marks or so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1704211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalZebul Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 I cant believe this hasnt been suggested before, but as for using the mark of Tzeentch and a demon weapon to represent a Dark Apostle, just model him with a cool, suitably demonic gun. The Deathscreamer weapon is certainly un-chaplainy, but I can certainly imagine a Dark Apostle, not wishing to relinquish his prized Crozius, accepting a cool demon-forged pistol or something as a gift from a demonic patron. A Dark Apostle model with an Accursed Crozius and a demonic firearm using the rules for a Lord with the Mark of Tzeentch and a demon weapon sounds like exactly the kind of think the whole "Counts As" concept that was envisioned for. Using Mark of Slaanesh and Lash to represent the Demagogue ability makes sense in a way, but it also sounds like a huge excuse to use one of the most easily exploited abilities in 40k. That and it puts a big 'Shoot Me' sign on your Apostle. Remember, lash has a 24 inch range, while most nasty guns have alot more. As for my Word Bearers, I'm just going to make a cool Dark Apostle model with a Crozius and a customized gun and use him as whatever, a Undivided Lord with a Demon Weapon, a Tzeentch Lord with a Demon Weapon, or maybe even some form of Sorcerer. It all depends on the rest of my army, and what role I want to use the Apostle in. But no Lash. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1704851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
40kChrista Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 i tried the the MoT /w a Demon Weapon for my own Apostle, but so far what's been working has been a straight up Demon Weapon on a Lord in Termie armor with a combi-plas and a personal icon. this guy has yet to disappoint me in any way. i also run another Lord with a Demon Weapon and wings, i have been toying giving him MoS for the improved Initiative and char. assassinating... the main Lord can see the taint of Slaaanesh on him and sends him on suicide runs with the promise of becoming the First Acolyte. but that Lord's performance hasn't been as good... at all, so he might end up being a sorc. with Wind in the long run. Grim Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1704944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrToombs Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 Greetings out there fellow WB players. Been away from the hobby for a couple of years, and just recently bought the new CSM dex. As others, i was dissapointed about the codex and had many thoughts about doing another army then CSM.(Blasphemy) Mainly because as others have pointed out elsewhere the lack of god specific daemons, and the character of the Dark Apostle and WB as a whole is gone. Reading through this topic has renewed my Faith in the WB, because of the alternatives that are presented in here to make for an example a Dark Apostle that is close to the old one, and well lesser daemons dont seem that bad after all:) I hope to start collecting, converting and painting up some additions to what i already have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146508-question-for-word-bearers-players/#findComment-1707351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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