northoceanbeach Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 Just wondering if the command squad or honour guard is a retinue, it seems it would be, but I don't see any mentiojn of it. Thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 Its not. There are no more fixed retinues for anyone. Not even the techmarine's servitors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1700602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
northoceanbeach Posted September 20, 2008 Author Share Posted September 20, 2008 I find that odd, they just made the new rule in the big book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1700603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 Yup. A few other dexs still have em though. I think thats why. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1700612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniclurker Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 It sucks, because they finally made command squads worthwhile in the new rulebook, but then gimped them again in the new codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1700636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banville Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 I'm not so sure about this. If, as has been stated, the unit description for Command Squads and Honour Guards describes them as "bodyguards" and they don't take up a FOC then, according to the Rule Book they are retinues and characters can't leave them until the unit is destroyed. It depends on what they're called in the Codex but the rule is pretty clear cut on page 48. I've a feeling the characters joining and leaving the unit isn't spelled out in the Codex as it's included in the Independent Character Section of the overall rules. Have a look for yourselves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1700759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 Well, a ritenue, as per BRB, is "a special unit that the character cannot leave". There is no such unit in the new C:SM. Even the servitors can leave the Techmarine (and are then subject to "mindlock" where they cannot do anything for the turn, except attack if already locked in CC, on a 1-2-3 on a d6 roll, which I find very cool.). So no hiding your HQs from CC! Phil Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1700838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banville Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 But they ARE called a "bodyguard", which, according to the BRB, means they fall under the rule for retinues as it specifically states that retinue units are called "bodyguards". It doesn't say they can't leave their bodyguard in the Codex but if a unit is a "bodyguard" according to the BRB they're one HQ Choice and are counted as retinue and character. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1701003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpawn Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 It may call them a bodyguard in some fluff text but I have not seen anywhere they are described as such in any rules text. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1701018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheReclusiarch Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 And surely you wish for your captain to fight in the frontlines and not let one of his Battle-Brothers take the beating!? :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1701287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
northoceanbeach Posted September 21, 2008 Author Share Posted September 21, 2008 FOr like three editions, they've had retinue's for space marines, that all they've done is mean you character can't leave the unit, and now, once there finally is a retinue rule, we don't get them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1701315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 But they ARE called a "bodyguard", which, according to the BRB, means they fall under the rule for retinues as it specifically states that retinue units are called "bodyguards". It doesn't say they can't leave their bodyguard in the Codex but if a unit is a "bodyguard" according to the BRB they're one HQ Choice and are counted as retinue and character. The phrasing in the BRB is "..which is normally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard' or similar)..." The difference of retinues = bodyguards and special units are "normally" called bodyguards is huge. The language is by no means definitive nor exclusive. Rules wise there is nothing that you can use to adequately justify these units being a retinue and further to that, there is nothing you can use in the codex to justify it either. Its exactly the same as BA and DA. There were no debates there either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1702533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 I agree that the command squad / honor guard is NOT a retinue, and I agree that this fact sucks. but I'm staring at my shiny new dex, and there's NOTHING to suggest that they are a retinue, such as a statement that the character may not leave, etc... as there was in 4th. sorry guys, the commander fights as a seperate unit in combat, etc... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1702884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banville Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Yep, tried wangling it each way and I agree. There's no way around it. Characters are still prone to assassination. Dagnabbit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1703080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadelance Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 im calling GW on this one Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1703971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghaurok Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Sorry to bump an old thread, but I was reading through the C:SM and on page 104, under the "Mighty Heroes" section, Honor Guards and Command Squads are referred to specifically as retinues: "Each also has the option for a retinue unit - a Command Squad or Honour Guard..." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1814643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Having both count as retinues works until you start to think of Shrike and Calgar. Shrike has a jump pack and none of his command squad can so that neuters his movement and abilities. Calgar can have 3 Honour guard and as such cannot join all three. As for the other Captains and Chapter Masters they kind of work but end up severely limiting your options if you decide to take them. I think that they work well as separate units and are not broken like that either. My 2 wonga worth Wan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1814680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trekari Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Actually Shrike makes even MORE sense, as his Ambush ability would then apply to his retinue. Otherwise "Ambush" appears to violate the BRB pg 48 by not following the examples of specific language. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1814712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 What ambush ability? If you mean infiltrate (by virtue of See, But Remain Unseen rule) then I see your point because how can a unit he is attached to be "his unit" however my point was really why would he bother to come with a Jump Pack if his squad didnt. It means that he cant be transported for one thing. It can contridict the BRB because of the whole "Codex Trumps Rulebook" thing that GW have, otherwise Necrons WBB wouldnt work as it does (which is pretty broken if you ask me) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1814721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexx Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Again- The command/Honour Guard squad can be called a retinue, a bodyguard, an Honourguard, the Commander's BFF's, it doesn't matter. They're defined as a unit the Character can not leave. There is no such listing in the Marine Codex (or Chaos Marine Codex for the darkside players here) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1814731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trekari Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Does my Codex need to tell me that "Template" weapons use the teardrop-shaped marker? No, because the rulebook tells me what "Template" means. If it tells me what a retinue is and that an IC can't leave them, does the Codex need to tell me the IC can't leave it after calling something a retinue? No, because the BRB has already covered this. Now, I am hardly 100% positive about this, but in no less than 3 places in the SM Codex is it suggested (or outright stated as on pg. 104) that Honour Guard and Command Squads can be taken as retinues for their respective IC choices. Notice how it even goes so far in the unit entries in the back to say that you can't take an Honour Guard if you haven't taken a Chapter Master, and that you cannot take a Command Squad if you don't take a Captain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1814744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexx Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 But your Codex does tell you that the squad/character is (or may) be armed with a template using weapon in it's rules. Nowhere in these squad's rules do they use the words retinue, or even imply that the character can't leave the squad. The rulebook itself (never sure if we're supposed to quote rules or not so I won't) pg 48 says that there are squads a character can not leave, these may be called.... It actually reads that there are squads that a character can not leave, these may be called retinues, nowhere does it says anything mentioned as retinues are a squad the character can not leave. And (again) nowhere in hte unit's rules does it say "This is a retinue, this is a squad the character can't leave" Nowhere in the character's rules does it say "He may purchase a retinue or squad that he can't leave" All it says is "you may purchase one xxx unit for every yyy in your army" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1814772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trekari Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 And I think that pg. 104 makes a damn-strong argument for them being used as retinues, which are defined already in the BRB as a unit that the IC cannot leave. The Codex does not have to re-state everything the BRB states in order to make it true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1814776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 I think people are confusing fluff for actual rules, yes command squads have been described as bodyguards/retnues for an IC, but no-where in the codex does it support this. The newest codex always takes priority over all other rules sets, so you have to follow the rules set out. And it has been said above that this is an omission becuase it may have been covered/suggested in the main rule book. Well its important to remember that other armies can have retinues and the rule book is for use for everyone. And also that it is such an important rule that it belongs in the codex, if its not there then its not supposed to be! If you have to really look hard and interpret many other quotes/rules-sets to see a rule then it doesnt exist..GW DOES NOT hide easter eggs in its rulebooks! Of course if you wanted to add this rule, then you would need to start a new thread in homegrown rules and discuss its use. After all denying your opponent the ability to target your IC's in CC is a huge bonus, if it were meant to be this way it would be in the codex and to repeat myself if its not there..its not supposed to be. GC08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1814829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trekari Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Except that on pg 104 about Founding your Chapter, it TELLS you that Chapter Masters can have Honour Guard retinues and Captains can have Command Squad retinues. How is this not a rule? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/146601-retinues-in-csm-5th/#findComment-1814832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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