Retinues in C:SM 5th?

[Legatus]

Because that is just a description of the different units you might take in your army. It is not a section that describes rules. The word "retinue" is used simply to describe the status of the unit. The army list entry for Marneus Calgar on the other hand contains rules, and they allow your army to take 3 Honour Guard units instead of the usual 1. Unless you suggest that they all form one big unit together with Marneus Calgar, that very much confirms that the Honour Guard or Command Squad does not have to be with the character that enables them to be taken.

[Trekari]

"Each also has the option for a retinue unit"

 

Explain how this is fluff. If this is 'just a description of the different units you might take,' then you can take a retinue unit because that is explicitly described. Both the Honour Guard and Command Squad entries also describe themselves using these terms.

 

Are you suggesting it is just a giant coincidence that:

 

1) Honour Guard describes itself as a retinue

2) Command Squad describes itself as a retinue

3) pg. 104 states that those HQ choices each have the option for a retinue unit, and then go back to specifically (and respectively) mention Honour Guard as a retinue for Chapter Master, and Command Squad as a retinue for Captains?

4) That retinue is a specific term in the BRB that gets tossed around inside Codices without regard?

[greatcrusade08]

Firstly the "rule" that you guys want (the retinue) would vastly improve the CC ability of all HQ units, and as such a rule would be in the codex if it were supposed to be.

 

Again just because the word retinue is used as a description doesnt mean its the same as the rule of the same name. After all you have to have a captain to take the command squad so it is a form of retinue (using the english language). But unless it specifically says next to the unit choice "this is a retinue and follows these rules...." then all this is just wishful thinking.

 

Each and every special unit in the new codex has its own area where it lists special rules and NO WHERE does it say Retinue!

 

Also i advise any of you who have access to a grey knights codex to look at how the retinues are laid out, they are much the same as Telion and the scouts, you cant take one without the other!

If you were to take a captain and a command squad was his retinue...you would HAVE to take the command squad, it essentially turns the IC into a unit upgrade (much like Telion) does it say this anywhere in the codex?????.

 

And to repeat the codex is the newest rules set for space marines, the new rulebook was written whilst marines were using 4th edition so, the codex has priority when looking at rules!

 

GC08

[Hexx]

And I think that pg. 104 makes a damn-strong argument for them being used as retinues, which are defined already in the BRB as a unit that the IC cannot leave.

 

The Codex does not have to re-state everything the BRB states in order to make it true.

 

Pg 104 also says you can add "impenetrable armour" to your army.

 

Should we start arguing at least one Codex Marine vehicles actually has an armour value of 23?

Or that artificer armour is supposed to have a 1+ non modifiable save that overrides the "1 always fails" rule?

[Hexx]

"Each also has the option for a retinue unit"

 

Explain how this is fluff. If this is 'just a description of the different units you might take,' then you can take a retinue unit because that is explicitly described. Both the Honour Guard and Command Squad entries also describe themselves using these terms.

 

Are you suggesting it is just a giant coincidence that:

 

1) Honour Guard describes itself as a retinue

2) Command Squad describes itself as a retinue

3) pg. 104 states that those HQ choices each have the option for a retinue unit, and then go back to specifically (and respectively) mention Honour Guard as a retinue for Chapter Master, and Command Squad as a retinue for Captains?

4) That retinue is a specific term in the BRB that gets tossed around inside Codices without regard?

 

The rules (brb pg 48) says that "Bodyguards" may count as retinues. (In the exact place that says "retinues may count as retinues)

Servitors are described (in the unit fluf entry) as "Bodyguards" for techmarines.

And yet they have a specific rule for what happens if they're not accompanied by a techmarine or a MotF.

[Koremu]

I think Mindlock is there in case the Techmarine/MotF gets killed.

[Legatus]

Explain how this is fluff.

It isn't "fluff". Nor is it rules. It is an overview, an introduction, to building a Space Marine army. It is "hobby".

 

The rules for Command Squads are explained on page 55 and 132. The rules for Honour Guards on page 53 and 131. The rules for Captains are on page 54 and 132. The rules for Chapter Masters are on page 52 and 131. That's where it would have to explain that those units act as a retinue for the character, not in a section that explains to newbies how they could structure their first Space Marine army.

[Trekari]

Greatcrusade

 

It says you have the OPTION to take a retinue unit.

 

And retinue is hardly a common word that gets tossed about every 12 pages.

 

On a side note, I wouldn't recommend using a Codex that was written nearly six years ago as a 'model' for what it would look like if it were meant to be a retinue. But that's just me.

[Trekari]

Explain how this is fluff.

It isn't "fluff". Nor is it rules. It is an overview, an introduction, to building a Space Marine army. It is "hobby".

 

The rules for Command Squads are explained on page 55 and 132. The rules for Honour Guards on page 53 and 131. The rules for Captains are on page 54 and 132. The rules for Chapter Masters are on page 52 and 131. That's where it would have to explain that those units act as a retinue for the character, not in a section that explains to newbies how they could structure their first Space Marine army.

 

That's odd.

 

You assert that's how they can structure their SM army, but at the same time you say they can't do what the section actually says.

 

Interesting.

 

(And btw, pgs 53 and 55 describe those units as retinues as well, since you brought those pages up.)

[greatcrusade08]

Greatcrusade

 

It says you have the OPTION to take a retinue unit.

 

And retinue is hardly a common word that gets tossed about every 12 pages.

 

On a side note, I wouldn't recommend using a Codex that was written nearly six years ago as a 'model' for what it would look like if it were meant to be a retinue. But that's just me.

 

Well you can nit-pick all you want, but you quite carefully neglected to answer the main points in my post and went on to again address this one page that makes you think you have a case!

 

A : The newer codex has priority over all other rules sets for an army!

 

B : The special rules listed beside each of these units does not say "Retinue"

 

C : If they were a retinue you would HAVE to take a command squad with every captain, esentially turning the captain into a unit upgrade.

 

Does your one page of text explain all this????

 

GC08

[Trekari]

A: BRB is the foundation for rules, Codex only overrides with a direct contradiction occurs.

 

B: Can you show me where the term "Retinue" is defined anywhere as a special rule?

 

C: BRB pg. 48 says "Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is normally called a ‘retinue’, ‘bodyguard’ or similar)." Note that it doesn't say "Some Codex books force you..."

[Koremu]

C : If they were a retinue you would HAVE to take a command squad with every captain, esentially turning the captain into a unit upgrade.

 

You do not have to take the command squad, but if you do, then per p48 BRB: "the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other members of this squad are killed, at which point it starts counting as an independent character..." (emphasis mine)

 

 

Which brings up another question: Given the line quoted above, does the presence of a Retinue unit prevent the independent character from counting as a seperate single-unit model in Assaults (as per p49 section2), as it is an upgrade character rather than an independent character at that point?

[greatcrusade08]

A: BRB is the foundation for rules, Codex only overrides with a direct contradiction occurs.

I cant agree with this, the rule book was printed whilst marines were using 4th edition, the honour guard were only available to UM and command squads were much different than they are now, 5th edition changed the structure of the HQ choices and such, a rule like Retinues which wasnt previously used in 4th, should have been added if it were meant to be used. The codex is the rulesset you use for building your forces, if you have to use retinues it should be there!

 

B: Can you show me where the term "Retinue" is defined anywhere as a special rule?

I dont have any source books with me, but i dont see how this is relevant to your argument, we all know what retinues are, if you dont you shouldnt be arguing for either side, and yes if there was a retinue rule it would have it listed amongst the rest. Again you have not answered the challenge merley skirted around it with misdirecting questions.

 

C: BRB pg. 48 says "Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is normally called a ‘retinue’, ‘bodyguard’ or similar)." Note that it doesn't say "Some Codex books force you..."

No because that would suggest you had to take this character, when in reality you chould choose another HQ choice (its all about choices), the nature of the retinue rule means if you take an IC and squad with the rule the two cannot be seperated during the game and the IC cannot be singled out. (see above post for better explanation)

Its worth noting that the grey knights retinue tells you most of this by its unit selection options/special rules. And too add, that although it is 6 years old it is the current rules source for GK and cannot be ignored as source material.

 

GC08

[Koremu]

No because that would suggest you had to take this character, when in reality you chould choose another HQ choice (its all about choices), the nature of the retinue rule means if you take an IC and squad with the rule the two cannot be seperated during the game and the IC cannot be singled out. (see above post for better explanation)

Its worth noting that the grey knights retinue tells you most of this by its unit selection options/special rules. And too add, that although it is 6 years old it is the current rules source for GK and cannot be ignored as source material.

 

Quotes from page 131 and 132 of C:SM; "You may include one Honour Guard squad..." "You may take one Command Guard squad..." (emphasis mine)

 

If you take a Chapter Master you have the option of including an Honour Guard. If you take a Captain you have the option of taking a Command Squad.

 

You do not have to buy them, but you can't get them without buying the IC.

[maniclurker]

Regardless, Trekari, a command squad or honor guard is a completely seperate, independently operating unit. They MAY join with your captain or master, but they do not have to. As such, they are not a retinue per description in the rulebook. It's really as simple as that.

 

How many people in your gaming group have quit playing games with you because you try to press this issue?

 

Also, you seem to avoid replying to posts that raise really strong arguments against you... Why is that?

 

Legatus:

...3 Honour Guard units instead of the usual 1. Unless you suggest that they all form one big unit together with Marneus Calgar, that very much confirms that the Honour Guard or Command Squad does not have to be with the character that enables them to be taken.

This certainly does clearly show that honor guard can operate independently of your master, and by extension, so can your command squads. Will you reply to this, Trekari? Or, can you not?

 

Hexx:

Pg 104 also says you can add "impenetrable armour" to your army.

 

Should we start arguing at least one Codex Marine vehicles actually has an armour value of 23?

Or that artificer armour is supposed to have a 1+ non modifiable save that overrides the "1 always fails" rule?

This is a clear example of the codex explaining the fluff aspect of SM. This page in the codex does not pertain to rules in any way. Care to respond to that, Trekari?

 

Rulebook:

Retinues

Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is norally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard' or similar". Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character unitl all of the other members of this unit are killed...

The facts: In no part where it discusses actual rules in the codex does it say that command squads or honor guard count as a retinue as described in the rulebook. It is very clear that it is a unit that your Captain or Master may, but do not have to, join. As such, it does not qualify as a 'retinue' per the rulebook, as a retinue is a unit that an Independent Character cannot leave.

 

You have several very knowledgeable people clearly explaining why command squads and honor guard do not count as the special 'retinue' as described in the rulebook. Yes, they are retinues in the fluff sense, as they most certainly would accompany your leader. However, they can also be sent off to accomplish their own mission independently.

 

Don't you think that we would like them to count as a 'retinue' for the purposes of rules? I, for one, would most certainly enjoy having a combat beast of a Captain that is nigh untouchable in a command squad, but it simply is not so.

[Hexx]

Regardless, Trekari, a command squad or honor guard is a completely seperate, independently operating unit. They MAY join with your captain or master, but they do not have to. As such, they are not a retinue per description in the rulebook. It's really as simple as that.

 

How many people in your gaming group have quit playing games with you because you try to press this issue?

 

Also, you seem to avoid replying to posts that raise really strong arguments against you... Why is that?

 

Legatus:

...3 Honour Guard units instead of the usual 1. Unless you suggest that they all form one big unit together with Marneus Calgar, that very much confirms that the Honour Guard or Command Squad does not have to be with the character that enables them to be taken.

This certainly does clearly show that honor guard can operate independently of your master, and by extension, so can your command squads. Will you reply to this, Trekari? Or, can you not?

 

 

<smacks self in head>

 

I read the post, agreed with it and completely missed this.

Yes, how does Marneus Calgar have 3 Honour Guard squads if each HG squad is a retinue?

[Legatus]

And btw, pgs 53 and 55 describe those units as retinues as well, since you brought those pages up.

Not in the rulesy bits though, which is all we lawyers care for. :whoops:

 

The thing is, re-read the retinue rules in the rulebook. It is not an attribute called "retinue" that makes the unit and the character with them a single unit in HtH. It is the fact that the characters is not allowed to leave the unit as long as it is alive that defines what units protect the character in HtH. The note that they are "normally" called retinue or bodyguard is merely elaboration. In another army they might be called "praetorians" or whatever. But command Squads and Honouor Guard are units that will oinly go to battle with their commander, even though they don't have to be near him during that battle. So how would such a unit and their purpose be described? They would be described as a retinue or bodyguard. I guess to avoid teh confusion GW could just as well describe them as "units that follow around the Captain or Chapter Master". Those are called retinues.

In their unit description, Ork Nobz are described as being the Warbosses bodyguard. And in fluff terms, that's what their function is. But in the actual army list, they are simply an elite choice. Mighty space kings and warlords might have more than 5 bodyguard, so you could even say that of the 10,000 men under his command, the 120 Soldiers you are playing in your army are the personal bodyguard or retinue of your armies commander. In an area where you deal a lot with mighty heroes or leaders, the terms "bodyguard" and "retinue" will indeed be used a lot. And not in every case will they be used to refer to a type of unit your character is not allowed to leave and counts as an upgrade character of.

[Koremu]

And btw, pgs 53 and 55 describe those units as retinues as well, since you brought those pages up.

Not in the rulesy bits though, which is all we lawyers care for. :whoops:

 

The thing is, re-read the retinue rules in the rulebook. It is not an attribute called "retinue" that makes the unit and the character with them a single unit in HtH. It is the fact that the characters is not allowed to leave the unit as long as it is alive that defines what units protect the character in HtH. The note that they are "normally" called retinue or bodyguard is merely elaboration. In another army they might be called "praetorians" or whatever.

 

Having just done so, I think I have pinpointed where you are wrong

 

The following is the clause from p48 of the rulebook;

 

Retinues

Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is normally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard' or similar).

 

You are reading it like this;

 

Retinues

Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with {a special unit that they cannot leave during the game} (which is normally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard' or similar).

 

While the counter arguement is that it should be read like this;

 

Retinues

{Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit} that they cannot leave during the game (which is normally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard' or similar).

 

Thus, the generic case from the rulebook applies to the Space Marine Honour Guard, Command Squad and Servitor units because the Character and Special Unit are fielded together.

 

 

It is (like the Land Speeder entry in Codex Space Marines) not well worded.

[Legatus]

Now check out the rules for Dark Angel Command Squads or Blood Angels Honour Guards. That's where the new system started that "bodyguards" do not have to be fielded with the character they are bought for. These squads "[do] not use up any Force Organisation Chart selections but [are] otherwise treated as a separate HQ unit." Actually I think Eldar had it before Dark Angels. Eldar players will not be please if you explain to them that they cannot actually field the Warlock unit they can only get when they include a Farseer on their own, but have to put it with the Farseer at all times.

 

The rulebook tells you that there are certain units available to some commanders that they cannot leave during the game. The Codex Space Marines gives you no such units.

[Koremu]

In the absense of a specific rule in the codex, the general rules from the book apply.

 

The rulebook tells you that a squad selected with a commander is a retinue. BA, DA and Eldar may have a special rule (which therefore overrides the general rule), but the generic Space Marine Codex does not.

 

Indeed, the fact that a specific rule is used elsewhere indicates that the two are treated differently.

[Legatus]

The rulebook tells you that a squad selected with a commander is a retinue.

The rulebook does not tell you that. Codex Eldar, Dark Angels and Blood Angels all are older than the current rulebook. When the rulebook was published it had well been established that in some codices, certain units can only be taken if you include a certain type of character. Re-read the rulebook entry for retinues with the second sentence:

 

"Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is normally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard' or similar). Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character (...)"

 

We know from Eldar, Dark Angels and Blood Angels that this is not always the case. In Codex Space Marines we have another example. It is not automatic that units that can be bought only with the presence of a certain character form a single inseparable unit with it. None of the Codices published in the last few years had such a unit. The rulebook entry suggests that this is not allways the case. It is a precondition for the character to be protected in HtH by the unit that the character and the unit are inseparable. The Codex has to provide that precondition. The Codex Space Marines does not.

 

How else would you work out fielding Calgar and three units of Honour Guard?

[Hexx]

To sum up

 

The "Retinues"rule is (as mentioned) a squad that a character may not leave .

 

1)Is there a rule (not fluff) either describing any Codex Marine squad as

A ) A Retinue

B ) A unit the character may not leave

>No there is not

 

2)Is there an explanation as to how a single IC (Calgar) may have 3 Honour Squads that somehow all count as retinues?

>No there is not

 

3) Do the rules for Servitors include specifics for a character being a member of the squad "at the start of the turn"

therefore implying that the unit can function without a character?

>Yes

 

Every bit that is claimed to say that Honour Guard/Command Squads are "retinues" (using the retinue as a squad the character can't leave )

is a fluff piece. Exactly the same as the "You can take Impenetrable armour" quote.

 

As mentioned in anotehr thread- if your group wishes to count those squads as "retinues" feel free, no one should stop you.

But nothing in the rules, either RAW or RAI, would suggest that these squads are squads a character can not leave.

[maniclurker]

In the absense of a specific rule in the codex, the general rules from the book apply.

 

The rulebook tells you that a squad selected with a commander is a retinue. BA, DA and Eldar may have a special rule (which therefore overrides the general rule), but the generic Space Marine Codex does not.

 

Indeed, the fact that a specific rule is used elsewhere indicates that the two are treated differently.

Actually, Koremu, this is where YOU'RE wrong. You DO NOT select a command squad WITH a captain. You are merely restricted from selecting them UNLESS you have a captain. Those 2 are not the same thing. If you select a captain and a command squad, then you can run them together or seperately, it matters not. What matters is that the captain can leave the squad, thus it is not a retinue.

 

You are seriously trying hard to read this in a way that benefits you.

[nurglez]

totally agree that a command squad is not a retinue, there havent been retinues for any of the recent codices that I have noticed. The rule in the rule book was made because some old codices still have retinue rules. These retinues were always bought either with the IC, or there was a mention "this character may be accompanied with a retinue at X points".

 

I do not see where the problem is in misunderstanding this, we dont go to fluff for rules, we go to the rules, if we went by fluff then as soon as i put my chaos marine army down on the table, all imperial guard armies would automatically flee.

[maniclurker]

...if we went by fluff then as soon as i put my chaos marine army down on the table, all imperial guard armies would automatically flee.

Or die from horrible diseases... assuming you play nurgle.