Valkyries.

[WolfLordLars]

Most ideas are terrible. What makes them good or bad is how well they are executed. If you really want to split the difference, then you should help your fellow player execute their idea in a better way, rather than encourage them to discard the idea.

 

Some times, there is no fixing it. In this case, I suggest SOB and using Marine Rules.. or a SOB unit drawn from a feral world to make them more SW like. The fluff supports that.

 

Some examples of terrible ideas done well:

 

Werewolf vikings in space (space wolves)

Vampires in space (blood angels)

Batman in space (Night Lords)

Roman legion in space (Ultramarines)

 

Not sure where you get the "terrible ideas" from. These are all ideas from the designers of the game. They turned their ideas into the game we know today.

 

Haven't you ever seen the Imperial guard army that guy made from Bretonnian men-at-arms? That won tons of awards and was featured in white dwarf. It was even used in the 2007 Grand Tournament rules packet as an example of a great conversion.

 

Nope, missed that. I suppose that might fit a low-tech IG army. Knights on horseback does not a Ravenwing army make. But, thats my opinion. I suppose it could be done, if you really wanted to.

 

To me, 40K is about having fun, so I can think of no greater sin then intentionally going out of one's way to squash the fun of someone else.

 

Well, if you want to look at it that way, then going outside of the 40k universe might affect the fun of your fellow players. Afterall, we play 40k rather than other games... part of the reason *I* play 40k is because of the story. I like the story the way it is. Imperium is good. Chaos is bad. Xenos must be purged, etc. While sometimes breaking the mold might make for a decent story (like how the Tau and Humans live side-by-side on worlds in their sector, or how sometimes the Imperium and its enemies forge an alliance for a specific situation), intentionally going outside of the 'norm' might bother some players.

 

While a hello-kitty SM army is 'cute', if they insist on replacing the helmets of each marine with a hello-kitty head, and turning their dread into a giant hello-kitty, it just became a bad idea. Stuff like that might be neat for projects, I just feel that there are SOOO many things out there in the 40k universe that one could occupy their time with, I dont understand why some people want to go out of their way to do things which just dont fit the established story.

 

You like GI Joe. Great! I saw a "Cobra" themed SM army once that was pretty neat. But, all the models were Space Marines. They just adjusted the colors and symbols to reflect this theme. I think their CO had a "Cobra Commander" impression about him (the cape, the reflective helmet, etc). Well done. With the countless Space Marine legions, its not outside the realm of belief that such a unit might exist.

 

 

Anyway, I could go on and on, but nothing will come of it. You have your opinion, I have mine. Its all good. Like I said, I wont tell someone they CANT do something, just that they shouldnt. Female Space Marines fall into that category for me. If you insist on making them, feel free. My Wolves will simply hunt them down and kill them like they would any chaos influenced mutant abonination. :D :P

[Menathorn]

Anyway, I could go on and on, but nothing will come of it. You have your opinion, I have mine. Its all good. Like I said, I wont tell someone they CANT do something, just that they shouldnt. Female Space Marines fall into that category for me. If you insist on making them, feel free. My Wolves will simply hunt them down and kill them like they would any chaos influenced mutant abonination. :sweat: ;)

 

And my Chapter will stand on the other side of the table fighting for their traditions and their right to exist.

 

Now, please read the fluff for them. And tell me the oppinions. Still a WIP.

 

FLUFF:

 

Valkyrie’s

 

The Valkyrie’s of the Einhearjar of Russ are amongst the greatest of the Emperors servants. The women that arm themselves in adimantium and the holy bolters of the Astartes

 

The selection of the Valkyrie’s is the same as for the rest of the chapter, selection from those that have fallen in battles among the different tribes of Valaskjalf. Yet the female tribe is not a great one nor is it as large as the other tribes, but sometime the Wolf Priests will find fallen female warriors that have taken part in the battle. In the Chapter, they might be few and not as out-spoken as the male warriors, yet the Einhearjar of Russ pride themselves in the fact that they have female warriors as strong as the other Chapter’s male warriors.

 

Since their founding soon after the Horus Heresy and since they settled their home world the chapters Wolf Priests have had a great interest in the worlds female warrior culture and the myths that surround them. And as they searched for new members for the Chapter, they brought back with them the fallen female warriors to work out how to implant the gene-seed of their great father into the fallen. So that now, millennia’s after the Horus Heresy can increase their numbers as well as the other chapters.

[WolfLordLars]

I would separate them from the Wolves of Fenris. Perhaps a new planet, maybe with similar conditions to Fenris. Perhaps another death world, but a land of mountains rather than oceans. I always liked the description of the homeworld of the dark angels, before they blew it up... dark land of forests, kinda like eastern europe in almost any dracula movie. Not sure if that was the case for yours.

 

Are they all female, or just some?

[Grey Mage]

Fluff, that I enjoy anyways:

 

Knowing the limited numbers of the Space Wolves and their frequent needs to be abroad to pursue their duties to the empire Bjeorn the Fell-Handed requisitioned a great task from the various Priests of Fenris- To give him personnel who would be part of that broader chapter, not space marines, who could travel Fenris looking for likely candidates for the rank of initiate. They were to be able to stand up to the harshest conditions and largest perils that fenris could throw at them, and highly mobile so as to travel accross the vast distances that would be required on the many islands. It took little under two decades for the combined knowledge of the iron, wolf, and rune priests to conceive of a force that could stand up to the rigors of such a task.

 

So came the Valkyries of Fenris. Given powered armor, Jump packs, and marine style equipment. Blessed with multiple implants and additional organs and muscles grafted into them the surpass human limits and longevity. Indeed these Shieldmaidens of Fenris are a haunting sight to behold on the few battlefields they have appeared. While unable to truely bond with the black carapace the knowledgeable Rune and Iron priest gave them armor that would respond with the speed of thought while the wolf priests gave them the gift of training and conditioning so that they might be swift as the winds even incumbered by several hundred pounds of adamantine and ceramite.

 

No true warrior of fenris would ever surrender to an unarmed opponent, even one from asaheim, and so they were gift with as powerful of weapons as they could weild and their armor was made as ornate and finely crafted as the master-priests could fathom. The resulting units are small, numbering only a few dozen in total, but each is a powerful force in its own right. They rarely go on campaign with a great company, but when the great wolf decrees that they be dispatched few can find flaw with their preformance.

 

Im figuring on using them as BCJP's, Giving them a pair of Powerswords, a Meltagun, and two others. Theyll be represented by Seraphim from the SOB line, given feathery wings from a reaper mini. The first one looks pretty good with a little green stuff added on.

[Doctor Thunder]

Not sure where you get the "terrible ideas" from. These are all ideas from the designers of the game. They turned their ideas into the game we know today.

Right, but if GW had never made space wolves, and some player came on these boards and said, "Hey, I want to make a legion of viking werewolves in space," you might be inclined to tell them it is a terrible idea.

 

That's my point. It's not the idea that matters, it is how well the idea is executed. That's why you should help people execute their ideas better, rather then encourage them to discard the ideas.

 

To me, 40K is about having fun, so I can think of no greater sin then intentionally going out of one's way to squash the fun of someone else.

Well, if you want to look at it that way, then going outside of the 40k universe might affect the fun of your fellow players.

I don't think the two are really comparable. The fellow making the models isn't doing it for the purpose of ruining the fun for others, he is just enjoying the hobby in his own way, whereas the other person is going out of his way to intentionally ruin someone else's fun.

 

The only way they would be comparable would be if ruining the fun of others WAS enjoying the hobby in your own way, for someone. Surely you aren't saying that such an approach is welcome at the table?

[Menathorn]

would separate them from the Wolves of Fenris. Perhaps a new planet, maybe with similar conditions to Fenris. Perhaps another death world, but a land of mountains rather than oceans. I always liked the description of the homeworld of the dark angels, before they blew it up... dark land of forests, kinda like eastern europe in almost any dracula movie. Not sure if that was the case for yours.

 

Are they all female, or just some?

 

They are separat. I am thinking of putting them on a moon close to Vallhalla, but I would probably put them on a death world instead. I haven't been that big on the whole ocean thing, so I will probably use a mountain and snow deathworld.

 

And No, they are not all female, I will just make two squads. One for Jumpies and one for Grey Hunters. This is not going to be a full female army, but I will have parts of it.

[WolfLordLars]

Ok, not out to kill anyones fun here, but I knew I had read it somewhere that Marines were all male. While doing some searching for other info, I found it.

 

Jan 2005 White Dwarf. The 300th 'super-sized' issue. In the article "Heroes of the Space Marines", second page (p125).

 

"Only those who have performed great feats of heroism and come from the fiercest warrior cultures are picked to become Space Marines. Even then, only a tiny percentage of those candidates meet the demanding criteria of the Space Marines. All the new recruits must be male, because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types. Hence, there is a need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening."

 

(bolding is my own)

 

So, while you are certainly within your rights as a player of a game to make female marines, you should know that doing so goes against the established story of the game. I imagine a tau could call his Etherial a "psyker" if he wanted to in the same way... but it isnt in line with the story. Some things are grey, some are black and white. This seems (to me) to be fairly black and white. All new recruits must be male.

 

Just FYI.

[Menathorn]

As you say Lars, it should probably be rather Black and White, yet as a gamer I feel that if I want to make fluff, modell them, and game with them when I feel like it then I should be able to. I am sometimes hard on the fluff, both on others and on myself, yet here I have let it go. I would also like to point out as others have, that males and females isn't that different in our DNA setting, so with the right work we should be able to match the gene-seed to some of the female warriors on my home world.

 

I will also only use them where I have more minis so that if it really is going to get messy because I play with female marines, I am able to change the unit for another unit that is just the same, so that the game can go on. Which I should think is more than fair against any opponent.

[WolfLordLars]

Well, I have to disagree with you on the DNA bit. It isnt based on that, but other factors. If the Emperor couldnt (or wouldnt) do it, I doubt any other marine chapter would. Provided you are aware that the fluff doesnt support it and you want to take the project on anyway, all the best to you. ;)

[Doctor Thunder]

Some things are grey, some are black and white. This seems (to me) to be fairly black and white. All new recruits must be male.

 

It's not as black and white as you might think.

 

Sure, the article explains that the geneseed currently in use by the imperium only works in males. (We'll set aside for a moment the issue that male hormones and tissue types are meaningless terms, since women have male hormones as well, and body tissue is undifferentiated, so there's no such thing as "male tissue types")

 

But, we know from the fluff that geneseed can be modified and changed, and we also know that there have been many different kinds of geneseed that worked differently then the one the imperium currently uses.

 

For a quick example, the Dark Angels used a type of geneseed during the crusades that could work in fully grown adults. Now, the fluff also says that aspirants must be young, so obviously these "must" statements are not as set in stone as one might think. If there was geneseed that did not require the recipient to be young there also could have been geneseed that could work in either gender.

 

I know you want it to be a case-closed kind of quote, Lars, but it just isn't. It's basically like a statement saying that my minivan cannot go over 75mph. That does not mean that my minivan cannot be modified to go faster, nor does it mean that other car types cannot go faster then that.

 

So, to sum up. Female marines are still possible because geneseed can be modified to work in females and because there were other kinds of geneseed anciently that could be rediscovered.

[KingDeath]

For a quick example, the Dark Angels used a type of geneseed during the crusades that could work in fully grown adults. Now, the fluff also says that aspirants must be young, so obviously these "must" statements are not as set in stone as one might think. If there was geneseed that did not require the recipient to be young there also could have been geneseed that could work in either gender.

 

No they didnt, it is clearly statet that Luther and the other older knights of the Order never became full space marines.

I therefore assume that their "upgrade" was purely surgicaly done, without the use of geneseed.

[Grimfoe]

And, again: these are TOY SOLDIERS. If you're already willing to suspend your disbelief to the point to allow "Supermen" in space, then it's not a great leap to allow "Superwomen." While some wolves would argue that there are already female space marines (Dark angels DO wear dresses after all), there is NO reason you can't model female marines if you want. The fluff in GW is hardly fixed. The designer twist and change the fluff evertime they think they can make a buck on a new unit, so why shouldn't we change it to suit our desires as hobbyists? It seems silly to argue against female marines just because you don't think they fit the existing fluff or the half-assed science that GW includes in their fluff. Examining the science of 40k is not a good idea. There are too many holes in the existing fluff. Just go with it. It will be more enjoyable.

[Grey Mage]

Yeah... Demons popping out of peoples heads and staying around until destroyed.... *shudders*.

 

*sigh* There are, as previously stated, ways of going about it that dont even involve gene-seed. *wich sounds dirty if you think about it after watching the wrong comedies* Id also note: Whatever happened to the Sisters Of Silence? They certainly arent part of the Adeptis Soritas....

[Doctor Thunder]

For a quick example, the Dark Angels used a type of geneseed during the crusades that could work in fully grown adults. Now, the fluff also says that aspirants must be young, so obviously these "must" statements are not as set in stone as one might think. If there was geneseed that did not require the recipient to be young there also could have been geneseed that could work in either gender.

 

No they didnt, it is clearly statet that Luther and the other older knights of the Order never became full space marines.

I therefore assume that their "upgrade" was purely surgicaly done, without the use of geneseed.

You misplace your trust if you think GW fluff is ever "clear."

 

Index Astartes Page 20:

The warriors of the order clamored to join their ranks and in time the entirety of the Order became Space Marines. It is believed that it was Luther who would be the first to become so enhanced, and he became second only to Jonson in command of the Legion.

[Wolf89]

TOY SOLDIERS.

 

hehe :D

 

I don't know what you guys are talking about this women this and space marine that... I NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER mixed my GI-Joes with my Barbie dolls while playing... ;)

 

I think lars said the same thing, I try my best to avoid the whole male and female space marine bit as much as I can, because no matter how many points either side makes, there will be no end to it, so it's just a continuous discussion that leaves both sides sour.

 

I'm on the no female Space marines side, but that's only in fluff, as for the gaming, I don't give a hoot whether you say your hive tyrant is a hermaphrodite, or your death company is a mass of women on their period raging forward, as long as the model is 40k, and I have clear LoS, I will kill it all the same.

[Grimfoe]

I'm on the no female Space marines side, but that's only in fluff, as for the gaming, I don't give a hoot whether you say your hive tyrant is a hermaphrodite, or your death company is a mass of women on their period raging forward, as long as the model is 40k, and I have clear LoS, I will kill it all the same.

 

That's good stuff. As an aside: aren't hive tyrants already hermaphrodites? I think they may be.

[WolfLordLars]

Like I said, do what you want to do. But, the fluff says SM's must be male. If you find a document out there that says that there are Female Space Marines, good on you. As far as the storyline is concerned, they dont exist. Dealing in "what-if" can justify ANYTHING. I prefer to go with what we know and is established.

 

I am not going to convince the hard-core "there can be female marines" folks, and they have yet to prove their case to me in any definite fashion, so I guess thats where we are.

[Doctor Thunder]

I prefer to go with what we know and is established.

 

I'm calling you out on this one.

 

According to your posts on this forum, your SW army are the Steel Fangs, which you describe as a lesser company, even though there is no such thing as lesser companies, and you gave the company a name that doesn't appear anywhere in the official fluff that I can find.

 

I'll even quote one of your old posts:

 

when I made my "Lesser" Company (I will not call it a great company, as all the great companies are named and explained in the books). I also went for "Steel Wolves" as the name, then I remembered a faction from that cheesey "Click-tech" game, Mechwarrior: Dark Ages.

 

So, Steel Fangs it was.

 

 

That sounds like a pretty significant deviation from the fluff to me. That even sounds like you ignored some important details when you found them inconvenient. (You didn't want to name your force after one of the great companies, so you "invented" lesser companies, even though you knew they didn't exist)

 

So, what makes it acceptable for you to do that but not others?

 

Do you judge yourself by a different standard then you do other players?

 

Do you consider it fair to hold other players to a different standard then your own?

[Bran Scalphunter]

Wolf-Brothers and Wolf-Sister (sorry Dok Thunder, couldn't resist), can we please let the "Fluff says no to FemMarines but it's my models so there are FemMarines" arguement. Doc Thunder has painstakingly converted his Black Widows and I personally would love to play against them even though I understand by the fluff that GW has put out they can't exist.

 

As for deviant Companies for us Wolves, we can be past, present, and future Companies (my personal GC, the Silverfangs, are a Company that replaces Krakengaze's GC after I killed him off). So hah, more ale for the Wolves. :)

[Doctor Thunder]

Wolf-Brothers and Wolf-Sister (sorry Dok Thunder, couldn't resist)

LOL

 

Nice one. :)

[WolfLordLars]

Good catch. Now, let me explain my reasoning.

 

If the fluff specifically said "there are no other Space Wolf units other than the great companies" or something to that effect, not much I could say or do. However, its fairly vague with the powers of the great wolf, what kind of authority he has. Since then I have revised the fluff somewhat to put them (technically) under Logan's GC.

 

 

In the case of female marines, there is no ambiguity. Space Marines must be male.

 

 

Its the difference between using lack of info to make up your own, and specifically ignoring the existing standards to do your own thing. The idea of a unit of wolves broken off from a great company for specific missions is one that is not covered, but is not directly going against any part of the established story. Much in the way that I imagine some IG players will make up their own units, and how we have 1001 DIY marine chapters.

 

That one of those 1001 DIY chapters is made up of female marines goes against the established story. There are no female marines. All Space Marines must be male.

 

You can do it anyway, its a game. You can play 'counts as'. Whatever you want to do. But, by the story of the game we play, there are no female marines.

 

Can you prove otherwise? Can you produce something which refutes the article I cited? Something that says its fully possible for modern (modern in the sense of 40k.. not modern modern) technology, which the people of the Imperium do not fully understand, to do what the Emperor (who made the original space marines) was unable or unwilling to do?

 

No, of course you cant, or you would of already and this whole debate would be done with.

 

When you can, please let me know. :)

[Doctor Thunder]

Pretty weak arguments, WolfLordLars. The Fluff says there are 13 companies. They don't have to say that there are no others, because if there were 5 others, the fluff would say that there were 18 companies.

 

You and I are exactly the same, Lars. When you came across fluff you didn't like, you reasoned your way around it. I did the same thing.

 

The difference between us is that I don't go around telling people that they shouldn't do what I myself do.

 

 

 

 

Since the argument is now effectively over, I will engage is some friendly ribbing as I take all of WolfLordLars' arguments and apply them to his fluff-breaking army. :blush:

 

 

 

 

So, WolfLordLars, while you are certainly within your rights as a player of a game to make an extra company, you should know that doing so goes against the established story of the game. Some things are grey, some are black and white. This seems (to me) to be fairly black and white. There are 13 companies.

 

If someone took the time to make another space wolf company, good for them. However, there are no additional companies in the fluff, and the generally accepted story is that they don't exist. If you insist on doing it anyway, that's your business, as long as you do a good job and don't get pissy about the flak you will receive for it.

 

I just feel that there are SOOO many things out there in the 40k universe that one could occupy their time with, I don't understand why some people want to go out of their way to do things which just don't fit the established story.

 

Anyway, I could go on and on, but nothing will come of it. You have your opinion, I have mine. Its all good. Like I said, I wont tell someone they CANT do something, just that they shouldn't. Extra companies fall into that category for me. If you insist on making them, feel free. My Black Widows will simply hunt them down and kill them like they would any other simple-minded foe. :)

[Grey Mage]

Alright guys... lets keep the Character comments to a minimum ok?

 

Debate fluff, where and when you can find it. This isnt the presidential elections and no ones going t owin big if they come out convinsing each other or the peanut gallery. Chill.

[WolfLordLars]

Its ok... I dont know what prompted him to just copy what I said and change a few words. He has his opinion, and wont be swayed no matter what he is presented with. It isnt a matter of right and wrong, now its "well, you broke the rules as far as I am concerned, so I will do the same". Except there are no rules, just the story.

 

Its all good. Anyone who reads it will see the point I was trying to make, and anyone that doesnt wont get it no matter how much I type.

[WolfLordLars]

You and I are exactly the same, Lars. When you came across fluff you didn't like, you reasoned your way around it. I did the same thing.

 

The difference between us is that I don't go around telling people that they shouldn't do what I myself do.

 

 

Since the argument is now effectively over, I will engage is some friendly ribbing as I take all of WolfLordLars' arguments and apply them to his fluff-breaking army. ;)

 

 

I let this one sit for a bit... but honestly, is that the best you have? You are presented with evidence that settles the "are there female marines' question, and the best you can do is pull out the "oh, your fluff on your army isnt legit, so mine is ok!" Thats just awesome..

 

The thing is, I have no problem with fluff for armies or themes that are plausible.

 

plau·si·ble /ˈplɔzəbəl/

1. having an appearance of truth or reason; seemingly worthy of approval or acceptance; credible; believable: a plausible excuse; a plausible plot.

2. well-spoken and apparently, but often deceptively, worthy of confidence or trust: a plausible commentator.

 

I would say about 95% of the ideas I see on boards like this fall into that category. One of the best I saw (and I actually wanted to do) was an IG army made up of converted Gue'la (humans in the Tau empire). Every vehicle was a modified tau tank, all the troopers were wearing armor like the tau, the storm troopers looked like fire warriors with boots, etc. Did it fit the fluff? No, at no time in the fluff does it say that the Humans have their own army under the Tau.. just that they serve the Empire as they can.

 

But could it happen? Based on what we know of the story, the 'fluff' of the Tau and the Damocles Crusade, could such a thing be possible? Sure, seems very likely. There is nothing that says it couldnt exist, and its reasonable based on what we know.

 

 

Now, female marines? Its pretty cut and dry there. That isnt questionable. That isnt "well, they really dont say one way or the other". They do. Space Marines must be male.

 

It really sucks that you have nothing better to argue with other than to bring out 2 year old posts about the fluff of my army, then to try and turn it around when it really just doesnt fit. Your upset because someone found it, in print, that your great idea for female marines isnt in line with the fluff.

 

But, your going to refute it no matter what, and thats your right. Just let it be said that we are not the same. I try to work within the guidelines of what we know about the Space Marines and the Space Wolves to create a unique, yet plausible unit. You decided not to. Its cool, whatever you have fun with, right? :D