Scar Weaver Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Only Horus and Lion El'Johnson could claim more victories than Russ and this was a constant frustration to him. Index Astartes 1 (Index Astartes Dark Angels), Page 20, "The Lion And The Wolf". [Roboute Guilliman] succeeded in liberating more worlds during the Great Crusade than any other Primarch, and the worlds he brought within the Imperium were to benefit from his organisational skills and passion for efficient government. 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, Page 12, "Fortress Macragge". Those are the sources I know of that describe accomplishments during the Great Crusade. If anyone knows of other sources, giving a differing account, please cite them. I like the first one :sweat: It is also mentioned on one of the HH books...but I have no source. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1716517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrolf the Cunning Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 There seems to be so much conflicting information regarding rankings in terms of crusade achievments that at this stage I dont think that it is possible to say the order for sure. Perhaps that is what GW wants, the story told differently from the different perspectives to foster rivalry between die-hard fans of certain legions. (Although im sure that the Wolves and Fists were quite high up the list :rolleyes: ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1716595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Only Horus and Lion El'Johnson could claim more victories than Russ and this was a constant frustration to him. Index Astartes 1 (Index Astartes Dark Angels), Page 20, "The Lion And The Wolf". [Roboute Guilliman] succeeded in liberating more worlds during the Great Crusade than any other Primarch, and the worlds he brought within the Imperium were to benefit from his organisational skills and passion for efficient government. 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, Page 12, "Fortress Macragge". Those are the sources I know of that describe accomplishments during the Great Crusade. If anyone knows of other sources, giving a differing account, please cite them. I like the first one ;) It is also mentioned on one of the HH books...but I have no source. i would be quite frustrated if a marine in a dress claimed more wins than me also ;) wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1716607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scar Weaver Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Only Horus and Lion El'Johnson could claim more victories than Russ and this was a constant frustration to him. Index Astartes 1 (Index Astartes Dark Angels), Page 20, "The Lion And The Wolf". [Roboute Guilliman] succeeded in liberating more worlds during the Great Crusade than any other Primarch, and the worlds he brought within the Imperium were to benefit from his organisational skills and passion for efficient government. 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, Page 12, "Fortress Macragge". Those are the sources I know of that describe accomplishments during the Great Crusade. If anyone knows of other sources, giving a differing account, please cite them. I like the first one ;) It is also mentioned on one of the HH books...but I have no source. i would be quite frustrated if a marine in a dress claimed more wins than me also ;) wolf lord kieran At the risk of creating an even bigger quote bubble, I say to you, Puppy Lord Kieran: BWAH! We all know Russ saw a big red fire engine on the way back to Terra that he just had to chase. The Lion had to beat him with a news paper to get him to heel. And by "news paper", I mean a big, black, power armored fist. How's that for fluff? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1716652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 ironically enough, if you changed fire engine to Leman Russ Battle Tank, you would be correct in the primarchs delay in returning to terra during the siege. and say what you will, my legions sole scret is the wulfen, not wearing dresses and turning traitor! wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1716662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 The Dark Angels were pansys during the crusade, their record wasn't exactly good. When it came to it their record of conquered worlds and battles was mid-table down the list of the Legions. I don't rate them at all, not after reading Angels of Darkness anyway.. The Lion and his secretive ways were the worst thing that could have happened to the Dark Angels, they were better without him. Ahem No the Dark Angel's where the emperor,s Praetorian guard (Before the retcon the Horus hearsay art books did to hearsay history and the Custodes(sp) intro.) The Legion (and Primarch) was second only to Horus in victories not mid table at all but second only to the warmaster the favoured son of the big E. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1716686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scar Weaver Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 and say what you will, my legions sole scret is the wulfen, not wearing dresses and turning traitor! wolf lord kieran I'll take hearsay to a blatant mutation any day. BTW, we like our dresses. They make us look mysterious...and stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1716698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 lets remember that the basic process of making a human to a space marine is a blantant mutation. and more importantly, we Puppies were loyal to Russ and the Emperor...when Lion returned home he found a eviction notice, pmsed, and blew up a planet in the process. and your dresses make you look something alright... wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1716706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 I always thought there was something odd about a chapter that wears dresses and hides a dark secret. And don't forget that the fallen have to be tortured for them to talk, they must take don't ask don't tell very seriously. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1716729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 The 'Horus Hearsay' never fails to make me smile when I read it. Intergalactic civil war broke out over some idle speculation by the Warmaster! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1716800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scar Weaver Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 The 'Horus Hearsay' never fails to make me smile when I read it. Intergalactic civil war broke out over some idle speculation by the Warmaster! I was speaking in terms of rumors about DA. I can see I'm outnumbered here. *goes to ground* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1716940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Only Horus and Lion El'Johnson could claim more victories than Russ and this was a constant frustration to him. Index Astartes 1 (Index Astartes Dark Angels), Page 20, "The Lion And The Wolf". Funny how it says that in the Dark Angels IA, yet everywhere else its Horus followed by Dorn. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1716977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallthulu Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 1st, where does it say Horus followed by dorn? *racks bolter* secondly, Horus never considered the Lion for his conspiracy, not as a primary member to treachery (or liberation as Horus would see it) that is why he left him where he was/sent him where he went. to keep him out of the way. the lion was far too large of a godhead, a pack alpha if you will (ya gotta spell it out for the whelps of russ ). that is why the conspirators where who they were; those he could sway. sanguinius was the closest to the warmaster in brotherhood, but not in the conspiracy. the ones who conspired with him had the kind of personality traits/flaws that over shadowed the surety of purpose that the others (dorn, guilliman, russ, lion, vulcan, etc) upheld the Great Crusade. also, read angels of darkness for insight on this question. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1716995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Funny how it says that in the Dark Angels IA, yet everywhere else its Horus followed by Dorn. Care to give any examples of that "everywhere else"? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1717007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloies Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Pulse is refering to "Horus rising". And the only thing it say is something along the line sof "Second only to Horus in victouries.." when Garro meet's him for the first time. These HH-books are considered cannon. Live with it. Horus first, then Dorn then it's get's really confusing. And if Gulliman sails to the top it's only cuse he had enough marines to claim 8 worlds at the time while other legions could only take one or to at a time. But as said above, only Horus and Dorn is mentioned. And about the whole DA-thing. I would really love to seem a more sinister side of them. Not as 2D as some of the others when it comes to loyalties. Oh and Wolf lord K? "and say what you will, my legions sole scret is the wulfen, not wearing dresses and turning traitor!" So you are a time travler then? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1717066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 These HH-books are considered cannon. Live with it. George Mann from BL Publishing begs to differ. If it is Index Astartes vs BL Novel, the Index Astartes takes precedence. In fact, everything said in the novels can be dismissed as artistic license untill it is adopted in a Games Workshop sourcebook. But thanks for citing the source. Also note that the text from the Codex Ultramarines is not talking about "victories", but about "liberated worlds", which not necessarily is the same. So the two texts I quoted are not contradictory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1717088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 The Index Astartes are a good read but each one is written as with a biased outlook, theres never a set record of what happened, so for me the until someone writes a complete "what happened and when" account i take them with a pinch of salt. I still consider the BL books, when they are written properly, Horus Rising for example, cant be beaten and so i would consider them as above most "offical texts" like the Index Astartes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1717204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 The Index Astartes are a good read So are the Black Library novels... :P I still consider the BL books, when they are written properly, Horus Rising for example, cant be beaten and so i would consider them as above most "offical texts" like the Index Astartes. The difference between the Index Astartes articles and the Black Library novels is that the Index Astartes articles are pure "background" for the sake of establishing and expanding the background of the chapters. The Black Library novels on the other hand are stories, intended to be entertaining and dramatic. Furthermore, the feud between the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves has been a central part of both chapters background ever since the 2nd Edition, and it is even represented in the rules (see Codex Space Wolves) to this day. The text about "the Lion and the Wolf" cites their rivalry during the great crusade as further incentive and cause of that feud. The text in the Horus Heresy book on the other hand is written to create a mood or establish status of the parties involved, so that their interplay will grip the audience more. There is no contest here, as the former text is firmly rooted in the established background of 40K. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1717213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloies Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 These HH-books are considered cannon. Live with it. George Mann from BL Publishing begs to differ. If it is Index Astartes vs BL Novel, the Index Astartes takes precedence. In fact, everything said in the novels can be dismissed as artistic license untill it is adopted in a Games Workshop sourcebook. But thanks for citing the source. Also note that the text from the Codex Ultramarines is not talking about "victories", but about "liberated worlds", which not necessarily is the same. So the two texts I quoted are not contradictory. Dan Abnett. That's the guy who wrote Horus rising. And as far as I know He is one of the authors that put's alot of time in background cheacks to make sure things are proper. (That he got the wrong hair colur for the Lord of Angles don't matter). And when it comes to writing Dan really knows what he is doing. I'm pretty sure he writes more unbased then the people who wrote the IA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1717668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 The Index Astartes Dark Angels is attributed to Graham McNeill, Jervis Johnsin and Andy Chambers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1717685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 @eloies yes, yes i am. watch out tomorrow, the sun is gonna rise. prove me wrong. when it comes to HH vs IA, i favor the HH because as was stated already, the IA is biased to its host. the HH novels present "what happened" and allow us to witness what occured in what was recently just rumors and silliness. wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1718116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Just like "300" gives a more accurate account on what happened than a lame old historical text about the battle of thermopylae would, right? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1718152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 when the text in question was written to promote the army of the month, or whichever new special rules were in question, then a dose of salt is needed. w.l.k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1718155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrvat Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 To clear something up. Horus - most victories Guilliman - most worlds liberated Dorn - most victories after Horus before being called back home to protect the Imperial Palace, that happened a few years before the Heresy Lion - most victories after Horus before the Heresy Russ - most victories after Horus and Lion So as you see none of the give information disproves the other if you read it carefully cheers Hrvat Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1718163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 when it comes to HH vs IA, i favor the HH because as was stated already, the IA is biased to its host. the HH novels present "what happened" and allow us to witness what occured in what was recently just rumors and silliness. Indeed, Abnett went on record at a recent Gencon and said that, when concerning the heresy, anything written in the current Horus heresy series books retcons anything done before - so the HH artbooks, IA articles, and older BL novels. However, from the forthcoming Space Wolf/Thousand Son novels, with a book written from each perspective, we will be reminded of the truly subjective nature of history and events as they happened. RE the OT: There is a lot of contradictory information about what happened to the DA during the heresy. Many older sources mention that the Dark Angels toitered on the edge of Heresy, that they almost turned but resisted at the last. As has been said, there is also the highly controversial 'Angels of Darkness' which might seem to suggest that El'Johnson had indeed turned. This however contradicts the IA article which sees Luther turning to Chaos while El'Johnson is away, and the two coming to blows when he returns. In terms of their position during the heresy, I believe all we know is that they were on their way back to Terra during the seige of the palace (indeed, this is one of the reasons cited for Horus trying to force a confrontation with the Emperor by lowering his shields). Prior to this, warp storms had meant there had been no contact with either Caliban or the Lion. I guess we will have to wait for the follow up to 'Descent of Angels', which hopefully will vindicate what many people think to be the most pointless book in the series in terms of its contribution to the events of the heresy. Personally, judging the end of DoA, I imagine that the content of Angels of Darkness will be ignored, and IA plotline followed, which will be a great shame as I think Gav Thorpe's idea was a hell of a lot more intruiging (and also much more cool :) ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/2/#findComment-1718261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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