What were the Dark Angels up to?

[Legatus]

Why bother looking at the Index Astartes for the description of the Dark Angels loyalty if there are actual Codices from 2nd and 4th Edition that explain that they are loyal and Luther sided with Chaos? What, do the Horus Heresy books supercede Codex background as well? :)

[Brother Nihm]

Here's more on what the DA were up to,

The Horus Heresy unfolds. Nearly half of the Space Marine legions turn on the Emperor and follow Horus. Unlike the other traitor legions, the Night lords doesn't side with any of the Chaos Gods, instead they use the forces of Chaos as tools in their terror campaigns. After the massacre of Salamander, Ravenguard and Iron Hand forces at Istvaan V, Horus sends Night Haunter and his Legion on a campaign of genocide against the Imperial strongholds of Heroldar and Thramas on the Eastern Fringes, thus protecting Horus's flank and delaying Dark Angels reinforcements.

 

For how long they were delayed we don't know, only that they were.

[Eloies]

Delayed yes, but does it really say that they came to blows? maybe The Lion simpley spoke to Konrad and got some of his visons? Later he buggerd off with he's newfond infromation gahterd from the visions of Konrad. That would be pretty^^

 

I can't say that i have read that much from the NL vs DA thing but if it aint spoken in plain text that they did combat anything could have happend between thoose two brothers.

[angronn]

Indeed, Abnett went on record at a recent Gencon and said that, when concerning the heresy, anything written in the current Horus heresy series books retcons anything done before - so the HH artbooks, IA articles, and older BL novels.

 

However, from the forthcoming Space Wolf/Thousand Son novels, with a book written from each perspective, we will be reminded of the truly subjective nature of history and events as they happened.

 

Which is great, except that BL said they don't. So which to follow?!

[Pacific81]

BL said they don't what sorry? Although many of the BL books could be taken as artistic liscence, in terms of whether or not they say they are canon, I believe Abnett was speaking on behalf of the other writers who are involved in the Horus Heresy project specifically.

 

The point I was making was, as much as anything can be considered canon (we are talking about a fantasy creation here after all) they are all conspiring, along with Alan Merrett (who is regarded as being the number 1 officianado where the Heresy is concerned), to create the 'official' story of the events surrounding the Heresy. Therefore if its a toss up between believing the turn of events in an older IA article, previous BL novels that touch on the subject, or the current Horus Heresy range, we should regard the latter as being the correct description of events.

 

Remember there was much furore from fans of the Iron Hands when the HH artbooks portrayed the death of Ferrus Mannus, but those events have now been confirmed in the Heresy books.

[angronn]

Sorry, should have been clearer. I was referring to the statement made by the fellow from BL which is referenced in this topic:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=146596

 

Now, I might not agree with the "chuck everything out from BL, yay!" mentality, but it definitely seems to say that Studio writing is the only source of canon material. So if BL contradicts Studio, Studio wins until it chooses to accept BL's version in an 'official' source.

 

Now, granted that this is a fantasy universe, and moreover a fantasy universe with fluff contradictions even within the aforementioned canon sources, I think you either have to accept that different Primarchs had greater victories at different times of the Great Crusade (so first Dorn had second-most, then the Lion, then Guilliman) or else that different things are being counted (as per Hrvat's post):

 

Horus - most victories

Guilliman - most worlds liberated

Dorn - most victories after Horus before being called back home to protect the Imperial Palace, that happened a few years before the Heresy

Lion - most victories after Horus before the Heresy

Russ - most victories after Horus and Lion

[angronn]

Interestingly, the 4th ed. (and therefore very new) C:DA restates on p.20 the 2nd ed. C:AoD "The Lion and the Wolf" story, indicating that the ordering of victories was Horus, Lion El'Johnson and then Leman Russ". This was published after "Horus Rising", I believe. So there you have the Studio contradicting an element of BL writing, and the HH books in particular.

[Hrvat]

Well "the Lion and the Wolf" is a reprint from 2nd edition.

 

 

Hrvat

[angronn]

Well "the Lion and the Wolf" is a reprint from 2nd edition.

 

 

Hrvat

 

But by including it in the 4th ed. C:DA GW have demonstrated they still think it holds, as opposed to HH taking precedence over the previous 2nd ed. C:AoD. So Lion still > Dorn.

[JetfireUK]

From Angels of Darkness:

 

'What was he waiting for?' Boreas asked quietly.

Astelan looked into Noreas's eyes, read the curiosity that was now there.

'He was waiting to see which side won, of course.'

 

I still believe that this view would affect how Johnson would attack Horus - I don't think that he would have turned to Chaos.

[Pacific81]

This is an extract from Gencon '08 for anyone who is interested:

- In terms of canonicity, anything in the HH novels REPLACES what has been previously published by GW in the event of a discrepancy. Therefore the novels are THE canonical source for everything PH and HH-related, and logical conclusions must be made as to where they overlap with older games or background material.

[Legatus]

Appearently that is not the case. Index Astartes says DA were second. Then Horus Rising comes out and says IF are second. Then Codex Dark Angels comes out and again says DA are second. So the value of the Horus Heresy book in this case was exactly zero. Unless of course you insist that the Horus Heresy books do not only supercede previous codices, but also codices published after them.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Legatus Posted Today, 09:25 PM

Appearently that is not the case. Index Astartes says DA were second. Then Horus Rising comes out and says IF are second. Then Codex Dark Angels comes out and again says DA are second. So the value of the Horus Heresy book in this case was exactly zero. Unless of course you insist that the Horus Heresy books do not only supercede previous codices, but also codices published after them.

 

Isn't the DA codex, like most others, written from the point of view of whoever's codex it is (in this case DA)?

[angronn]

From Angels of Darkness:

 

'What was he waiting for?' Boreas asked quietly.

Astelan looked into Noreas's eyes, read the curiosity that was now there.

'He was waiting to see which side won, of course.'

 

I still believe that this view would affect how Johnson would attack Horus - I don't think that he would have turned to Chaos.

 

Not that a lie-spewing Chaos-worshipping Fallen would ever attempt to mislead anyone, no... ;)

 

 

As for the Codex being written from the Dark Angels point-of-view, all fiction is written from someone's point-of-view, so cannot claim greater veracity. In fact, one would suggest that the "god's-eye-view" of the different codices and Index Astartes articles (except ones like the Alpha Legion one, which were written more "in-character") would be greater than the more subjective "in-character" fiction books.

 

Quite apart from the canon/not-canon BL arguments.

[Legatus]

Isn't the DA codex, like most others, written from the point of view of whoever's codex it is (in this case DA)?

There are several pieces of background that "only the chapter master knows", like Luthor being held captive inside the rock. And IIRC (but not sure) not even he knows that Lion El'johnsons body is hidden deep inside the rock as well, guarded by the watchers in the dark. So no one actually knows that, but we are being told anyway. So the background seems to be told from an omniscient point of view.

[angronn]

Isn't the DA codex, like most others, written from the point of view of whoever's codex it is (in this case DA)?

There are several pieces of background that "only the chapter master knows", like Luthor being held captive inside the rock. And IIRC (but not sure) not even he knows that Lion El'johnsons body is hidden deep inside the rock as well, guarded by the watchers in the dark. So no one actually knows that, but we are being told anyway. So the background seems to be told from an omniscient point of view.

 

That was from the 2nd ed. C:AoD, and isn't in the 4th ed. C:DA. I can't remember if it was in the 3rd ed. C:DA.

[Hrvat]

I went to check all the sources.

 

So Lion over Dorn is at the breakout of the heresy.

 

Dorn over Lion is around 4 years before the heresy. Considering IF were recalled from the main body of the fighting there is no reason to believe both accounts as they address the matter at different moments in time.

 

 

Hrvat

[Pacific81]

From Angels of Darkness:

 

'What was he waiting for?' Boreas asked quietly.

Astelan looked into Noreas's eyes, read the curiosity that was now there.

'He was waiting to see which side won, of course.'

 

I still believe that this view would affect how Johnson would attack Horus - I don't think that he would have turned to Chaos.

 

Not that a lie-spewing Chaos-worshipping Fallen would ever attempt to mislead anyone, no... :D

 

 

Yes but how much cooler is it that the Lion was a potential bad guy than the dull and stereotypical "Oi ye turned to chaos I will smite ye heretic filth?"

[Pulse]

Not that a lie-spewing Chaos-worshipping Fallen would ever attempt to mislead anyone, no... :lol:

Even though Astelan clearly was not a chaos-worshipper nor was he lying, that is clear by what happens at the end of the book and who he speaks to, they confirm what he was saying.

[angronn]

I went to check all the sources.

 

So Lion over Dorn is at the breakout of the heresy.

 

Dorn over Lion is around 4 years before the heresy. Considering IF were recalled from the main body of the fighting there is no reason to believe both accounts as they address the matter at different moments in time.

 

Hrvat

 

I guess that would adhere to the first option I mentioned above. Wasn't Dorn found quite early on? Finding the Lion a little later might give him enough of a head start to catch up. That would be nice, as I like being able to reconcile fluff.

 

HOWEVER

 

Fluff sources:

C:DA = 4th ed. Codex: Dark Angels

IA:DA = Index Astartes: Dark Angels

C:AoD = 2nd ed. Codex: Angels of Death

 

The Great Crusade was more than one hundred years long. The Lion and the Wolf story from C:DA states the following (note that it is lifted directly from the Dark Angels:IA and is rather more succinct than C:AoD):

 

a) It was during the Great Crusade

It was as the frontiers of the Imperium were being pushed back

c) It was on Dulan, before the Dark Angels went on the Aliosore campaign (not that these names ring any bells for me, but they might with someone more steeped in the fluff)

d) Russ swore to avenge the stain on his honour, and as a result the two Chapters have a duel between champions every time they meet, to re-enact the duel of the Primarchs

 

 

Now, we know also that:

 

e) The Dark Angels and the Space Wolves were campaigning together, heard the news of the heresy together, and were coming back to Terra together (C:AoD, DA:IA)

f) Horus used to egg the Legions on by telling them of or putting them alongside their rival Legion (e.g. Imperial Fists vs. Iron Warriors) and he paired off the Space Wolves and Dark Angels due to their feuding (IA: Black Legion)

g) Lion El'Johnson and Leman Russ didn't get on from their very first meeting on Terra (C:AoD)

h) Russ was exasperated by Johnson's greater victory tally, and matters came to a head on Dulan (C:AoD)

 

 

It seems to me that this means that the Lion being second to Horus must have been extant for a good deal longer than merely 4 years before the Horus Heresy. The Dark Angels and Space Wolves must have fought alongside each other enough to cause Russ to lose it on Dulan, then gone separate ways (for the Dark Angels to fight the Aliosore campaign) and then had Horus repeatedly (the IA's words, not mine) put them side by side due to their rivalry, as they were when they heard of the Heresy. That would seem to take more than four years to play out.

 

 

 

Incidentally (more fuel to the fire), the longer version of the Lion and the Wolf story states "Horus was first among the Primarchs but there were others of the near equal reknown: Jaghatai Khan... Sanguinius... Leman Russ... Lion El'Johnson". No Dorn there either...

 

 

Not that a lie-spewing Chaos-worshipping Fallen would ever attempt to mislead anyone, no...

 

Yes but how much cooler is it that the Lion was a potential bad guy than the dull and stereotypical "Oi ye turned to chaos I will smite ye heretic filth?" :lol:

 

Not all that much cooler to someone who plays them...

 

Well, I take that back... a little. It makes for a different story, and I can see how some people might like it more. Indeed, some Dark Angels players do play it that way, I believe. Often they play with a Fallen army if that's the case. For myself I prefer what the fluff actually seems to describe: the Lion was loyal and sought to bring his sons back to the fold, and died doing so. His loyal sons have spent the last 10,000 years seeking to atone by hunting their wayward brethren, but have become consumed by the guilt and are now sometimes acting contrary to their given duty.

[Dreadnought Baraziel]

Well, for me, this is how I see it, from a totally impartial viewpoint (well, as impartial as I can get):

 

OK, Horus is plotting the Heresy, and The Lion is feuding with Russ, and they're away on the Shield Worlds. Now, the Heresy breaks out, and naturally they both rush back to Terra. Now, Horus is besieging Terra, however, because (most likely due to the fickleness of the warp) The Lion and Russ are coming back, he has to make a choice. He can stay and fight on with the Emperor and let the thousands of Imperial reinforcements come flooding in, or he can lower the shields on his battle-barge. Think about it.

 

Stay and fight on= slim chance of success

Lower the shields= 50/50 (we'll say)

 

Now, The Lion is also plotting. He himself has been slightly swayed by Chaos, so he is feeling a bit more dis-loyal at the time. Now, when he reaches Terra, one of two things will have happened:

 

Horus has won, and the Imperium is destroyed

The Emperor has won, and the Traitor Legions are destroyed

 

Now, The Lion has some wits about him. He doesn't want to be killed (duh!) so he'll side with whichever side wins. Now at this time, the taint of Chaos on Caliban is already in effect, therefore most of the Dark Angels on Caliban are now servants of Chaos. So, The Lion and Russ reach Terra, and what do they find? The Emperor has won, albeit at the cost of his body. So Jonson decides to side with the Imperium. They then begin the long journey home to Caliban and find the Chaos there. And the rest just falls into place.

 

Just my humble opinion. I'll know more when I get Angels of Darkness.

[Lord_Urbonov]

OK, Horus is plotting the Heresy, and The Lion is feuding with Russ, and they're away on the Shield Worlds. Now, the Heresy breaks out, and naturally they both rush back to Terra. Now, Horus is besieging Terra, however, because (most likely due to the fickleness of the warp) The Lion and Russ are coming back, he has to make a choice. He can stay and fight on with the Emperor and let the thousands of Imperial reinforcements come flooding in, or he can lower the shields on his battle-barge. Think about it.

 

Stay and fight on= slim chance of success

Lower the shields= 50/50 (we'll say)

 

Lol, you should check out the alpha legion thread, rather different theory on why the shields were lowered.

 

A theory I don't agree with by the way. :lol:

[Legatus]

Just my humble opinion. I'll know more when I get Angels of Darkness.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

[angronn]

Dreadnought Baraziel, report to Room 43. Chaplain Asmodai would like to have a few words with you... ;)

[pyrowarrior]

i can give a unbiased answer. I play Tau but i have read a lot of space marine stuff. I don't think Lion was Bad if anything that title should go to Russ for starting a fight with the Lion. Dorn is in no way number 2 after Horus and i put his siege warfare skills in to major dobut. He attack a fort made by a Tratior Legion that turned out to be a trap. if he was good as you guys say then he would not have attacked without proper intel and risked his legion at the same time. Dorn almost caused a second civil war because he was to stubborn to make chapters out of his legion. Oh lets not forget who ran off to the Eye of Terror . Why would Russ go? if you guys are going to say Lion was a tratior for he being secetive then you have to think Russ running off to the Eye of Terror is a little odd.