Imperial Knight Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 i can give a unbiased answer. I play Tau but i have read a lot of space marine stuff. I don't think Lion was Bad if anything that title should go to Russ for starting a fight with the Lion. Dorn is in no way number 2 after Horus and i put his siege warfare skills in to major dobut. He attack a fort made by a Tratior Legion that turned out to be a trap. if he was good as you guys say then he would not have attacked without proper intel and risked his legion at the same time. Dorn almost caused a second civil war because he was to stubborn to make chapters out of his legion. Oh lets not forget who ran off to the Eye of Terror . Why would Russ go? if you guys are going to say Lion was a tratior for he being secetive then you have to think Russ running off to the Eye of Terror is a little odd. Ok while I do not think Dorn was number 2 I do disagree with you on much of the rest. 1. He did not have the time to gather enough Intel on the situation because from real world experience of 10 years in the military, real or imaginary in a situation like that time is critical and at some point the leader must assume a certain amount of risk versus waiting for intelligence to attain a military advantage and possible victory, plus as i recall in the story the Fists eventually kick the warriors buts. 2. Dorns mistake was giving into the Codex not fighting it, the fracturing of the legions has made it much more difficult for the Empire to launch a collective strike and maintain control over the various chapters thus weakening the Empire, Guilliam was a brown noser and a fool who made a rash decision in his writing of the codex out of FEAR!!!!!!! Yes I said it he was scared, the Heresy made him mentally weak in my opinion, so he did what many leaders without conviction and the courage to face the oncoming tide do, he lashed out and made a rash decisions without looking at second and third tier affects. The Wolves showed some nads by continuing to do there own thing, and I love how a Successor chapter of the Fists found their own loophole around the legion issue by having 6 chapter size crusades......BT's anyone........almost the size of a legion.......maybe. 3. Russ was not bad, neither was Johnson it was a simple sibling rivalry that went to far, and others paid for their feud. The stories show there was at least some brotherly respect between the two. Russ ran off to the eye to hunt the forces of chaos, wich is why there is the whole 13th company story line to but that is just to much detail to get into. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1727369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrowarrior Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Dorn almost lost his legion in that fight, if the ultramarines had not showed up he would of been destroied Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1728212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperial Knight Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 You are correct he did require the aid of the Ultra's as much as I hate to admit it. But in general you can find flaws and mistakes made by ALL the loyal Primarchs, My point to this was any two people can read the same fluff and come away with completely different views on the story. I personally do not like Ultra's for example and I am indifferent when it comes to sallies, scars and IH, I do like DA's SW's and IF's. I think their stories are more compelling with potential for more depth, not to mention their primarchs are just more interesting IMHO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1728229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
le_tiss Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Boys, the room you are incorrectly reffering to is ROOM 42 By the way just for your info regarding victories: Lion after Horus but before the rest - Dorn (where's my glove), Russ (where's my beer) and Alpharious (where's my twin) Giles Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1728327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrowarrior Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Lion after Horus but before the rest - Dorn (where's my glove), Russ (where's my beer) and Alpharious (where's my twin) Giles thats fuuny Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1728535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Boys, the room you are incorrectly reffering to is ROOM 42 By the way just for your info regarding victories: Lion after Horus but before the rest - Dorn (where's my glove), Russ (where's my beer) and Alpharious (where's my twin) Giles Uh, Room 43 is just like Room 42, except better. Yeah, that's what I meant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1729139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Jarad Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 not to impose but we have all seems to have deviated from the topic "WHAT WERE THE DARK ANGELS UP TO" and not "LET'S YELL AND BICKER AT EACHOTHER ON WHO WAS SECOND BEST". I am a DA player and my understanding was that the lion's special trait as a Primarch was that he was a great Tactician. If I'm wrong and theirs nothing special about the lion then someone over at GW and BL are not doing there jobs (and this wouldn't be the first time :tu: ). Despite my rant, my point is lets stop beating on the DA, we already are going through some much with the hull unforgiven thing and the new GW codex. So lets stop "SENCORD" on the DA Primarch and the only thing that makes him stand out as a character. now as to the whereabouts of the DA during the great crusaded, it depends on your sources. during the time period all the legion were criss-crossing about the galaxy that makes it hard to follow. What is for certain is that before the heresy broke out Horus sent the SW and the DA far out to the edges of the western galactic rim so that they could not come to the rescue of the Emperor and Terra. hope that helped :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1729310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Ixion Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 I´m curious where you heard, that Dorn was such a mastertactian. In IA:IF it is clearly written, that Dorns legion was the most inflexible of all and thereby was used usually as a reserve, tasked with sieges. In my eyes Gulliman, Russ, Horus and Johnson still fight for the places as best tacticians and strategists. How you place them is a question of personal preference, as fluff gives a lot of references. But Dorns static gunline doesnt fit in here. By the way: I think that Russ is strongly underestimated. He became at least No. 3 with one of the smallest legions. I think. that should be kept in mind. For the Dark Angels: Well, i would take "Angels of Darkness" with a pinch of salt. Astelan was in no informed position, to have a valid opinion. During the heresy he played civilwar with Johnsons followers on Caliban, because he had no valid information about Horus campaign or Johnsons involvement. Only 10000 years later he learned of the outcome of the heresy by old myths and legends, collected in an "civilian" library. And his books were all, but comprehensive. Or does nobody wondered, when he quoted the deeds of IFs and WSs during the siege of terra, but left out Sanguinius and his BAs? So all his ideas and theories are flawed by the lack of information and should be seen as such. Ixion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1761544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 and 1 thing on Horus's victory tally: it was said in the Raven Guard IA that Corax almost came to blows with Horus because Horus took credit for some of the victories of the RG. The article said Corax became so angry he removed his legion from Horus's personal command. so if Horus took wins from Corax, who's to say he didnt take a few from his brother primarchs as well? this is not a effort to say Horus wasnt one of the best, but merely to show that his tally might have been inflated. wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1761623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEFF4i Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 This topic needs to get back on topic! What were the Dark Angels up to? Ever seen that movie 27 dresses? Its like that. :ph34r: Ahhhh, as we all know, the poor Angels had to go slap their planet back in line. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1763761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Elias Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 so if Horus took wins from Corax, who's to say he didnt take a few from his brother primarchs as well? If this happened that would put Lion out in front and everyone would be happy... well actually lits of people would be furious but mainly just that hot head Russ. (For the record although DA are my favorite, Space Wolves come in at a close second.) As for what we were doing, its obvious isn't it? We were watching to make sure the Night Haunter didn't go all emo and kill himself, whiuch we failed horribly at so we went to Terra, saw the emperor won, but died, cried for a while, straightened our dresses, and went home to cill with our home boys... and the rest, as they say, is heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1779117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logain the Ranger Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 What we know: Horus was first on the list, Russ was third. What we don't: Weather Dorn or Lion was second. With Dorn moved to Terra I doubt it would be Dorn. Another thing to remember the Space Wolves did have one of the smallest legions. Also in one of the HH books I remember it saying that Horus sent Russ to the most uncivilized places in the galaxy to keep Russ's victory total down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1780586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 hmm sending SW to uncivliised areas... wait a minute!! he sent them home? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1780668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logain the Ranger Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 hmm sending SW to uncivliised areas... wait a minute!! he sent them home? No, that's worse than uncivilized. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1780789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Elias Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 The problem is that the HH books are ment to answer some questions but still leave the rest to the inagination. I'm not sure where i heard thet the DA were with Konrad but I've seen it several times. We all know that the DA we're supposed to arive at Terra with the Dogs and, seeing that the battle had already been fought, they went home. We also know that the Wolves and DA met on several different occations, one particular incident sticks out, causing jests to be thrown between the legions... something like Johnson :cuss kicked Russ and Russ got all mad or something like that... There isn't much evidence to tell that the DA were with the Night Lords but, like I have already said, We're supposed to use our imaginations. Personally, I say that they were doing what all of the other legions were doing. For all we know they hooked up with the Alpha Legion and had a super secret mini-war that was so secret, due to the legions natures, that no one even knew that it had ever happened. Oh, and it was a :cuss kicking! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1784483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logain the Ranger Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 ^ Russ and Johnson were fighting (over what I'm not sure) and Russ stopped fighting and realized that the fight was foolish. Johnson thought Russ was mocking him and knocked his out with one punch. When Russ came to the DAs were gone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1784783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angels_Blade Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 AS a very loyal Dark Angel player I would like to say that you are all right! The canon is not canon as it has been twisted forgotton, re-written and replaced. I have all DA codexes and every book that mentions them. I am for all intents and purposes obsesssed! Angels of Darkness is a great book and imparts a veiw of The Lion form that of a fallen but it is not cannon (ask Gav Thorpe) That doesn't stop it from being a great read and a possible truth. The IA and Codexs have never even hinted that Johnson was anything but loyal and that the Fallen were anything less than chaos. However, It is the background fluff for the army, it will support the DA in their loyalist stance but it is cannon. Decent of Angels paints the veiw of Johnson as an intensely paranoid individual but again their is no mention of disloyalty. I personally think they were loyal to the last, that Russ and Johnson were equals (and ultimately friends) Infact i believe that Russ departed to the eye of terror to find his brother primarch. I love the HH series and I do consider them the true story of the heresy and as a result I will eagerly await the upcoming HH book Fallen Angels to shed light on the matter! http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o138/mustanguk/fallen-angels.jpg At the end of the day (it is a fictional universe) don't get so worried about it! Enjoy your argument/discussion everyone! <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1784851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 There isn't much evidence to tell that the DA were with the Night Lords but, like I have already said, We're supposed to use our imaginations.There's only the mentions in both Lord of the Night and Fulgrim about the NL going to take on the DA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1784898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Elias Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Actually it doesn't say that the Night Lords were going to hold up the Dark Angels in Fulgrim and I havn't read Lord of the Night so I wouldn't know about that. At the end of Fulgrim it only says that Horus would send them out to hold up some of his brother legions. As for the Lion and the Wolf they may have been evenly matched but at the end the Lion knocked out Russ and went on to make another world compliant on his quest to be the best. They were fighting because on the world of Dulan a corrupt governer named Durath Insulted Russ and the Emperor by calling Russ the "Emperor's lap dog". Russ started raging and vowed to kill the tyrant. Lion told him to calm down, marched into the city, killed Durath, and went back to where Russ was, all the while Russ was watching and getting more and more angry. When Johnson got back Russ punched him in the face. The two titans faught for a day and a night (about the same amount of time as the fight between Luther and Lion) and finally Russ, seeing how stupid this fight was, began to laugh. Johnson was still mad and he sucker punched Russ in the face, knocking him out, and then left. I only say it's a ;) kicking to keep the old rivalry alive. note* this is the story that is more accuratly depicted in both the Dark Angels and Space Wolves Codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/147082-what-were-the-dark-angels-up-to/page/4/#findComment-1785341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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