Locator Beacons

[Hellfury]

There is nothing particularly silly about this situation. The beacon is a signal being sent up to the ship. Encrypted or no, it is a signal detectable by all. That someone else can say "Drop them there." How wise is it to do so? Depends on the situation. Don't want to risk it? Then don't be cheap and pony up for a drop pod. Beacons are good for allowing your units to pinpoint on your already established units, to provide support or reinforce an area - with the drawback that enemy units could target yours. So what? Build that way. Don't leave transporter beacons on objectives or juicy high cost units. There's a reason it doesn't say friendly units.

 

Point is, the deep striking units that can do this can already come this close with a hint of scatter. But since you're blasting Here I Am, Rock You Like A Hurricane to the high heavens, they can choose not to scatter...if they're willing to get into assault range with you. Nothing particularly broken, cheesy, stupid or silly about it.

 

 

Like I said earlier, you can rationalize it anyways you want to work however you want.

 

The point is that this isn't anything new. This type of reading has been around for a long time concerning teleport homers and now locator beacons. Though I am sure a deluge of people will be crawling out of the woodwork stating that this 'new found' loophole will be taken advantage of at every opportunity they can take.

 

After playing 40K for 3 editions of the game, I don't EVER recall anyone having the brass to suggest that you could use the teleport homers of an opposing army. Atleast not in anything other than a joking/mocking fashion towards those who interpret the rules too literally.

 

To expect to utilize a bonus that doesn't specifically state that the opponent gains from it, that your opponent paid for no less, is without precedent.

 

And because of that point specifically, it is indeed a silly stance for someone to claim they would get a benefit that they didn't pay for.

 

[edit]

 

By RaW using your opponents items like this is is legal under strict interpretation of the rules, but I find that it would be quite unpopular to suggest that one could try and pull this off in any location and still expect to find an opponent.

[Morbus]

I think Hellfury has the right grasp of things.

There is no way your opponent gains something from your wargear unless specifically stated.

All in all it is quite sad that a FAQ is required to clarify this matter... :)

[Servant of Ultramar]

Someone on Warseer had a good example about this.

 

The Tau Positional Relay, for one, does not specify that "your" or "Tau" units entering on from reserve get the bonus. And yet people don't seem to think they can use that piece of wargear for their side...hmmm. :)

 

So I have no doubt that they'll enforce the locater beacon discrepency until it gets FAQ'd, just like how they enforced Rites of Battle applying to all Space Marines.

 

Seriously? That's really dumb, because the Marines book flat-out said in the fluff it's because he's communicating with his own men that they get the bonus; there's no logical way for the enemy to get it. No offense, but I would not want to play at your store. :\

[Pierre Degart]

On the plus side, just make sure you get the guy with the Teleport Homer inside a building after his squad have come into play. Id love to see a player who voluntarily takes that chance afterward :rolleyes:

 

Its true however, in the 15+ years ive been playing i havent seen a player with the stupidity enough to suggest these things. At the end of the day it is a game of trust and being a good sport. If you have to rely on 'twists' in the rules like this then you must suck at the game and have some kind of complex.

 

If you lose, you lose, simply you learn more.

 

The example given of the tyranids is a little worrying. Ive been playing them for years and not once have i considered the fact that MY upgrades would count on THE OTHER PLAYERS units. That is just bloody ludicrous. Think about it...

 

"Oh thank you for the shiny tank Mr armourer, problem is the enemy seem to have one as well...for free in fact"

 

And the other example of the 2xstr +1 is just as bad for the Emperors sake.

 

Im starting to think that GW could solve this problem with one extra rule in the front of the rulebook and codex's, it should sound a little like this:

 

MOST IMPORTANT RULE:

 

If you feel the need to find any other use for the rules placed in this codex, or somehow find a beardy way of using them against an opponent then you should put this codex down, burn your models and find a hole to cower in because you are...and always will be...a beardy fecking scumbag.

 

P.S - youve also been entered in the hall of shame and are hearby band from playing any further GW products. Also a squad of inquisitors from the Ordos Beardiness will be knocking on your door soon. Best get running...

[Brother Nihm]

Or they could just word their rules better,

 

e.g. "If one of your units wished to arrive on the battlefield via deep strike

and chooses to do so within 6" of a friendly model carrying a locator

beacon, then it won't scatter"

[vytzka]

What's silly about the quickening?

check when you cast it and when you use fleet :)

Check your rulebook. All (okay most) units can run, units with Fleet can assault after running. Quickening works perfectly fine. In fact it might even be more beneficial to the owning player that way as if he doesn't run far enough to get within assault range he doesn't have to waste a psychic power (assuming he can put that activation to some other use which I'm not currently sure of).

[Chucku]

What's silly about the quickening?

check when you cast it and when you use fleet ^_^

 

Fleet allows you to assault in the Assault Phase when you have Run in the Shooting Phase. I see no problem here.

[Captain Malachi]

What's silly about the quickening?

check when you cast it and when you use fleet :jaw:

 

Fleet allows you to assault in the Assault Phase when you have Run in the Shooting Phase. I see no problem here.

 

Pretty much what I was saying. ^_^

[Battle-Captain Garro]

I have to be honest, it never even occurred to me that the enemy could use your locator beacons until I saw it suggested here (it was stated on BoLS as a certainty). I think GW word their rules just fine, however, there will always be those who twist the meaning of the printed word for their own ends, in life as well as wargaming. Nobody I play with would suggest such a ludicrous thing so frankly people can insist on it and say it's official until corrected by an FAQ, am I bovvered? No!

 

I personally loathe tournament play which seems to be the exclusive domain of rules lawyers and beardmongers, trawling the depths of their codex for that loophole that they think will win the game. For me 40K is about fun and fluff. I'd rather play a story based campaign that inspires me with its imagery than any tournament.

 

"MOST IMPORTANT RULE:

 

If you feel the need to find any other use for the rules placed in this codex, or somehow find a beardy way of using them against an opponent then you should put this codex down, burn your models and find a hole to cower in because you are...and always will be...a beardy fecking scumbag.

 

P.S - youve also been entered in the hall of shame and are hearby banned from playing any further GW products. Also a squad of inquisitors from the Ordos Beardiness will be knocking on your door soon. Best get running..."

 

LOL ^_^ well put Pierre.

[SeattleDV8]

At least for the DA the beacon allows Dark Angel strike cruisers to lock onto them. For us its even more of an non-issue.

[the jeske]

What's silly about the quickening?

check when you cast it and when you use fleet :P

 

Fleet allows you to assault in the Assault Phase when you have Run in the Shooting Phase. I see no problem here.

 

Pretty much what I was saying. ;)

 

well it kind of a depends how you look at it . Since now there were no retro active psychic powers . there are people who arguee that if a model runs without the fleet rule and then gains it later on , it still can assault .

[Servant of Ultramar]

Hahaha, the Ordo Beardiness is one I would like to meet.

[JCarter]

Interesting how we bounce back and forth between RAW and RAI. It would be very enlightening if each writer would preface his remarks with "RAW" or "RAI" so that we could detect any inconsistency between the writers position on the issue and his position on the rules.

[Ian MacKay]

I remember this discussion in relation to teleport homers. But my search-fu is weak right now and I can't find the thread in the Official Rules forum. I thought it was decided that you cannot use your enemy's homer. The way the locator beacon is described, I'd think they operate the same rules-wise at least.

 

my $.02. :tu:

[Servant of Ultramar]

Any Necron player who tries to pull this has earned, and indeed should receive, a swift kick in the crotch.

That would be a living nightmare, fighting Crons that could deepstrike without missing and rip your whole army to shreds. o_O

[Lokied]

There is nothing particularly silly about this situation. The beacon is a signal being sent up to the ship. Encrypted or no, it is a signal detectable by all. That someone else can say "Drop them there." How wise is it to do so? Depends on the situation. Don't want to risk it? Then don't be cheap and pony up for a drop pod. Beacons are good for allowing your units to pinpoint on your already established units, to provide support or reinforce an area - with the drawback that enemy units could target yours. So what? Build that way. Don't leave transporter beacons on objectives or juicy high cost units. There's a reason it doesn't say friendly units.

 

Point is, the deep striking units that can do this can already come this close with a hint of scatter. But since you're blasting Here I Am, Rock You Like A Hurricane to the high heavens, they can choose not to scatter...if they're willing to get into assault range with you. Nothing particularly broken, cheesy, stupid or silly about it.

 

 

okay last Imma post on this:

 

Lolz....

 

Just LOLZ

 

first off If I, say for instance, owned a radio station that broadcast on 1345 Hz AM, it wouldn't matter how powerfull I beamed that signal into space (or anywhere else for that matter) if you don't tune your radio to 1345 you won't hear my station. Now, if I were a super-smart, two hundred year old, battle hardened, gene enhanced warrior with access to the greatest technology available do you honestly think I'd broadcast sumthin of such tactical value AS LOUDLY AS I COULD IN OPEN SOURCE???? NO! it would be a specific frequency (amongst the millions of other possible frequencies) and encrypted to look like garbage radiation or background noise. Now the logisters on board my ship would know to look at that 1 (out of millions) of freqs (cause I programmed tha durn thing) and have the code that would make sense out of the garbage put in the signal to hide it. No military on earth (and our tech is no where near as advanced as the fictional stuff in WH40K) has used unencrypted comms or broadcast where the enemy can simply stick his ear to a spoon and go "oh gee I hear 'rock you like a hurricane' on this thing" since WWI (thats 1918 for those of you who don't know). Kinda like GPS, don't think for a second you (with your store bought system) can get the same accuracy as good 'ole USA (who owns and runs every stinking GPS satellite there is, not boasting just tha truth) military GPS. Same satelites, same signals being sent, but the civie/non-US military versions don't get the good stuff. Same principle here.

 

As for this whole argument.....

 

Dumb, nevah be allowed officially, can't beleive this topic is still goin on.

 

Come on.

[Disruptor_fe404]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I agree whole-heartedly, but I'm half-expecting to have it happen.

 

But as has been suggested, a swift kick to the groin solves many of these issues.

 

On a side-note, I've found that players 'using' their opponents' Rites of Battle usually have their own source for it anyway, and ditto for players 'using' their opponents' feeder tendrils and such. Still silly when you see them bring it up though.

[Zakkiel]

This thread smells RAW cheese. Come to your senses, just a typo...

[turelhim vampire]

Locator Beacon used by the enemy?

 

Just asked Andy Joyce at GW about this, and got an "errrmmmm... NO" back.

 

He did say he'd pass it on to games development though.

[Brother Nihm]

The problem and entire discussion revolves around intent vs RAW, by RAW your enemy can use them because of the (poor) wording of the rule.

We all know what the intent is however that doesn't stop a devious/sharp player from taking advantage of it..

 

 

All we can hope for is a swift FAQ amendment (yeah right. :P).

 

 

Bumping this over to the rules experts for bullet-proofing.

[nighthawks]

Didn't Allesio basically through RAW out in the preamble / most important rule to 5th?

 

This is rediculus. Intent is clear, as it is in many, if not most, cases where such debates come up. unfortunately, there was this notion of RAW in 4th, but as I read it, no longer. yes, follow the rules, which are written, but settle debates based on the logic that we as gamers are asked to use under all rules writing systems. stay within the precedence and constructs, and most of these things sort themsleves out.

[Zakkiel]

We all know what the intent is however that doesn't stop a devious/sharp player from taking advantage of it..

 

 

Bumping this over to the rules experts for bullet-proofing.

 

Don't play with him...

[Praeger]

GUYS

 

Couple of quick points:

 

1 - I dont want to see ANYONE abusing others for following RAW - sorry to ruin it but we play by the rules, not our guess of the intent of the writer on the other side of the world who we have never met and who even if we did meet may tell us one thing when meaning another.

 

In short - if it says X it MEANS X. Dont guess, just follow.

 

2 - If you really want a "rational" reason that this rule could be used, then heres some real world examples.

 

Encrypted Chineese military signals (yes, these guys are BETTER equiped then US forces when it comes to encryption) are normally cracked within a few weeks - US forces signals within hours. Problem is that you still need to know how to crack it to listen in and so although it CAN be cracked that quickly dosnt mean that the enemy will always know about it.

 

What this means in a 40K sense is that we can assume that any enemy force might have these codes and frequencies etc.

 

Remeber - fluff can be made to support ANYTHING

 

3 - Just please guys keep this good and clean :lol:

[Shiodome]

i don't want to see ANYONE ignore the spirit of the game in favour of grubbing around for any advantage they can get.

 

In short if it says X and 'X' seems to be contrary to the way the game normally works, then discuss with your opponent and agree an interpretation before the game.

 

What this means in a 40k sense is that we can assume situations like being able to use your opponents synapse range in a nids vs nids game is daft, and that players should be willing to ignore literal interpretations for a more sensible one. (if your opponents tyrant could influence your guys with his synpase... surely he'd just order all your nids into the open in a suspciious 'large blast template' formation?).

 

there are plenty of situations where literal interpretations lead to situtations we instinctively know are wrong, this is why the rule book starts with 'the most important rule'. to suggest you should follow all rules to the letter, and interpretation be damned is just wrong, and against what gaming should be.

[gainesdp]

A semi-humorous response to an identical question on dakkadakka:

 

What about units from other games? I play at a gaming store and many other players are playing games at the same time as me.

 

 

If I use my space marine scout locator beacon what do I do when the Chaos player 3 tables down decides he wants to join our game and place his unit of deep striking Bloodletters into our game?

 

 

How can I prevent this abuse?

 

Please exscuse me I am a new player and don't understand all of the rules. It does say any unit.

 

And another quote from username Insaniak, basically addressing whether they have ever FAQed a similar situation (e.g., Necrons):

 

So far as I'm aware, they never did.

 

There have been a whole bunch of things that work in a similar fashion over the years, an I don't think that GW have ever bothered to actually clarify that they only work for the army that brings them along to the battle, since it's just generally assumed that that's how they work.

 

The closest you'll get is the clarification in the Inquisition FAQs on the WH/DH Inquisitor/Death Cultist combo, which points out that the rules in one book don't carry over to other books' units, even if they have the same name.

 

This is the same thing. When you build an army, the rules that apply to that army apply only to that army, unless specifically stated otherwise. Nobody else gets to use your equipment just because the rules don't say they can't.

 

So yeah, I tend to come down on the side that upgrades/wargear/special abilities only work for the Army you are playing. The alternative is a bit absurd, and leads to all sorts of conflicts (e.g., if Calgar is on the table, then all units with Combat Tactics (friendly and enemy) can choose whether to pass or fail any morale check, chapter banners allowing any space marine unit within 12 inches to reroll morale and pinning tests, etc.). Essentially, in my opinion, the game system breaks down if you play that locator beacons are usable by both friendly and enemy units, and thus is not a valid option regardless of whether RAW does not explicitly disallow it (in fairness, it does not explicitly allow it either).