A thought on a possible future role for Loken...

[Mertio23]

The description of this "warrior" is deliberately vague, leading me to believe that there is more surrounding him narrative wise than is revealed in this account. Garviel Loken?

 

I read some old fluff a while ago, that it was an Imperial Fist Terminator who was shredded by Horus. Can't remember the book it came from, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Mertio23]

Sorry, I was beaten to it. Disregard my posts.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

because as the point of the creation of the GKs, the emperor might already be mounted on the golden toilet?

 

wolf lord kieran

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The GKs were created in the time stoppage zone between the Emperor killing Horus, and him being put on the Golden Throne. He seems to do just about everything necessary, from setting up the Inquisition to explaining how to continue the Astronomican, in this stretchable time period. Its never really been explained how he found time to do all this. Maybe they took the scenic route back to Terra. :o

 

Besides, its pretty hard to take harvest the initial GK geneseed when he's on the Golden Throne.

[Sheff]

The GKs were created in the time stoppage zone between the Emperor killing Horus, and him being put on the Golden Throne. He seems to do just about everything necessary, from setting up the Inquisition to explaining how to continue the Astronomican, in this stretchable time period. Its never really been explained how he found time to do all this. Maybe they took the scenic route back to Terra. ;)

 

Besides, its pretty hard to take harvest the initial GK geneseed when he's on the Golden Throne.

 

Most of the whisperings around here and other places suggest the GK geneseed was in process sometime after the berating of Magnus and that this was revealed at the founding of the inquisition, and that the Emperor was still able to communicate for a while after being interred in the golden throne.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Sheff Posted Today, 02:36 PM

Most of the whisperings around here and other places suggest the GK geneseed was in process sometime after the berating of Magnus and that this was revealed at the founding of the inquisition, and that the Emperor was still able to communicate for a while after being interred in the golden throne.

 

Yes, I've read that in the new SM Codex. That leaves me with a choice - do I believe the (older) DH Codex, or do I believe the more recent SM Codex which was written by a UM fanboy? Perhaps my opinion is coloured by my annoyance at his remarks in WD, but I'd prefer to believe the DH Codex. This means that, while the Emperor may have had plans for a dedicated anti-chaos force, this would not have had effect until after the Siege of Terra. Accounts of the Emperor's ability to see the future say that the "future was hidden from him" ie there was no way forward until Horus lowers his shields, when it says "the Emperor saw what must be done". So he would not be able to forsee the need for the Grey Knights until Horus lowers his shields. This leads me to believe that whilst he may have been assembling a dedicated psyker corps, the Grey Knights as they are did not come about until after the death of Horus. If the geneseed was being prepared before the HH, then I think it would have originally been intended for something else.

 

Either way, whether the geneseed was taken from the Emperor pre-heresy or post-heresy, Loken doesn't fit in either. ;)

[moranimal]

Why? Garro, Qruze, and the 70 can form the start of the GKs. How they evolve afterwards isn't really explained, nor does it have to be. (What happens to them during the Siege is also open to conjecture.) Once Garro, Qruze and the others begin dying for whatever reasons, their will be a need to replenish their ranks. Since the founders will be few in number, other ways will have to evolve to increase the force while maintaining its quality.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

moranimal Posted Today, 08:36 PM

Why? Garro, Qruze, and the 70 can form the start of the GKs. How they evolve afterwards isn't really explained, nor does it have to be. (What happens to them during the Siege is also open to conjecture.) Once Garro, Qruze and the others begin dying for whatever reasons, their will be a need to replenish their ranks. Since the founders will be few in number, other ways will have to evolve to increase the force while maintaining its quality.

 

Because all GKs are psykers! Garro, Qruze, and the others are not. Every GK ability except True Grit requires psychic ability, whether it be The Aegis, The Shrouding, Rites of Exorcism etc. Even the conditioning to prevent them falling to Chaos is linked to their psychic ability, they use it to create mental "thought blocks" and "mind screens" to shield them from temptation. Does no one else get this? :P

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Have they all always been psykers, or did the formulation of the Grey Knights turn to psykers as the best recruits for the anti-daemon Chapter? I've never heard it definitively stated to be the former, ergo the possibility that Garro and co. founded them remains. Psychic ability is, after all, something you're born with. It's not coded into the geneseed.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Imperialis_Dominatus Posted Today, 10:44 PM

Have they all always been psykers, or did the formulation of the Grey Knights turn to psykers as the best recruits for the anti-daemon Chapter? I've never heard it definitively stated to be the former, ergo the possibility that Garro and co. founded them remains. Psychic ability is, after all, something you're born with. It's not coded into the geneseed.

 

Well, all the special gear and abilities apart from True Grit require you to be a psyker. If you aren't a psyker you can't use a NFW (insert my previous post) . . . without psychic capability they would be unrecognisable as GKs. They would be a force that specialises in fighting Chaos, yes, but at this point all the Marines who survive the Heresy are experts at fighting Chaos. If Garro & Co did found the Grey Knights, there would be next to no distinction between them and the regular Legions/Chapters.

[Askari]

Grey knights may have been made from an experiment to improve spacemarines and make them less susceptible to chaos. Before the heresy there were a few isolated incidences of marines being taken over by chaos so the emperor most likely would have been working on a solution to this problem as a side project while he was working on the imperial webway.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Well, all the special gear and abilities apart from True Grit require you to be a psyker. If you aren't a psyker you can't use a NFW (insert my previous post) . . . without psychic capability they would be unrecognisable as GKs. They would be a force that specialises in fighting Chaos, yes, but at this point all the Marines who survive the Heresy are experts at fighting Chaos. If Garro & Co did found the Grey Knights, there would be next to no distinction between them and the regular Legions/Chapters.

 

But all this does not preclude their force developing into the Grey Knights as we know them now. No?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

"Being the precursor to" is better than "developing into". The psykers would have to be found, those strong enough selected and implanted with geneseed, the Rituals of Detestation and other training regime parts developed, the Aegis Suits built, Titan needs to be turned into a Fortress-Monastery . . . loads of stuff. Garro and his men may have acted as a stop-gap until the Grey Knights were up and running, but there would be no tangible connection to the modern Grey Knights via geneseed, battle honours etc. Records of Marines from traitor legions serving the Imperium are likely to be suppressed and are no doubt locked in a vault somewhere. Their battle records may have been the starting point for the Librarium Daemonica, but I doubt event the Grey Knights know who gained the knowledge for them - just another dark secret in the vaults of the Imperium.

[Aryx Blackheart]

"Being the precursor to" is better than "developing into". The psykers would have to be found, those strong enough selected and implanted with geneseed, the Rituals of Detestation and other training regime parts developed, the Aegis Suits built, Titan needs to be turned into a Fortress-Monastery . . . loads of stuff. Garro and his men may have acted as a stop-gap until the Grey Knights were up and running, but there would be no tangible connection to the modern Grey Knights via geneseed, battle honours etc. Records of Marines from traitor legions serving the Imperium are likely to be suppressed and are no doubt locked in a vault somewhere. Their battle records may have been the starting point for the Librarium Daemonica, but I doubt event the Grey Knights know who gained the knowledge for them - just another dark secret in the vaults of the Imperium.

 

 

Makes sense. Garro, Qruze and the 70 would need to fill the gap of time it would take to get the GK actually up and running. As you posted before, it would also make sense that after said time, with their experience with battling Chaos that they would most likely become Inquisitors. But that being said, just another point/question,. With them being SM, and being able to live awhile ;) , you think we would've heard of some of their exploits or something about them. Is there any known tales of them after the Eisenstein? Anything further written of them? I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I seriously would like to know, just got into 40k about a year ago and am trying to read anything I can get my hands on!!

[Grand Master Tyrak]

One of the possible futures for the Eisenstein 70 as written in Index Astartes: Death Guard was that they still live in the 41st Millenium, described by "more fanciful storytellers" as "an elite force dedicated to thwarting the aims of Nurgle, Mortarion and the Death Guard, who appear in battle clad in the colours and flying the banners of the pre-heresy Death Guard, (and) then vanish, like grey ghosts from the warp." However, this is old fluff, so I'm unsure as to whether this still counts as canon. I'd assume Loken (if he survives) will go with Garro and Co. (he says, desperately trying to make a tenuous link to the original topic of this thread).

[Aryx Blackheart]

Well, like you said back to the original post. They need to keep Loken dead, enough said. If they bring him back, for me it would kinda cheapen his sacrifice. He stood and DIED in the face of filthy heresy, died being the key. And I'll have to look into that, sounds like an interesting tidbit, even if it is not canon! :) Thanks

[Grand Master Tyrak]

At least if Loken does come back he'll get his butt kicked again. :woot:

[JEFF4i]

Well, like you said back to the original post. They need to keep Loken dead, enough said. If they bring him back, for me it would kinda cheapen his sacrifice. He stood and DIED in the face of filthy heresy, died being the key. And I'll have to look into that, sounds like an interesting tidbit, even if it is not canon! :) Thanks

 

Not to mention, over 3 books getting to really like Loken, it makes the heresy that much more disgusting.

[moranimal]

Because all GKs are psykers! Garro, Qruze, and the others are not. Every GK ability except True Grit requires psychic ability, whether it be The Aegis, The Shrouding, Rites of Exorcism etc. Even the conditioning to prevent them falling to Chaos is linked to their psychic ability, they use it to create mental "thought blocks" and "mind screens" to shield them from temptation. Does no one else get this? :)

 

Yes, all GKs as of their establishment in the Second Founding are psykers, but that doesn't mean that the original founders were pyskers or that it was a requirement. The story tellers have yet to bridge the gap between the HH and the establishment of the GKs. Therefore, Garro, Qruze, Tom, Dick, Harry, and the original 70 could have been the forebearers of the GK. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I have already posted a reply to this in my conversation with Imperials_Dominatus.

[Godspear]

For the sake of brevity, I'd love to see Loken return in the series. Imagine a nice thick book written by Lee Lightner boasting in big, bold, golden script, "Garviel In Flames," which would then descend into three pages of description, illustrating his moldering corpse, followed by thirty two chapters of charred landscapes.

[Beef]

was Garro not pyycic> he was in communian with the Emperor?? or whatever

[exetus]

It's entirely possible that the first Grey Knights were not psychic and that was later found to be an acceptable solution to making a force for fighting daemons. What Garro and his men DO have is unwavering faith in the Emperor and the Imperium which is MUCH more important when fighting the forces of Chaos. They have all stood in the face of numerous Chaos forces and stood together to defeat them. Also, remember that the Council of Nikea's edicts are still in effect preventing the training of psykers and tapping into the Immaterium for power, so it's VERY possible that the first Grey Knights were not only NOT psychic, but were intentionally not so.

 

We also don't know if Garro and/or any of his men have latent psychic ability. Their brushes with Chaos as well as exposure to the Warp when their Gellar field started to fail could have fundamentally altered them in some way or form. It's a reach, but when talking about 40k, ANYTHING is possible.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The Grey Knights were (starting to be) created after the Siege of Terra, before the Emperor was put on the Golden Throne. He revokes the edict of Nikea at the same time, thats why SM have librarians now.

Before anyone says, I know the new SM codex says there were hints about GKs being created before the Heresy etc but a couple of points. Following the comments of the SM codex author in White Dwarf, I have a less than complimentary opinion of him. Therefore I do not trust him to know what he is talking about. This is farily essential to understanding my reasoning.

The actual DH codex states (not speculates, as it does with the geneseed) that GKs were created in secrecy as part of the Second Founding. This is an older codex, yes, but it is one concerned with GKs, not SMs, and the reasons outlined above make the SM codex fluff in my eyes less than reliable.

Thirdly, if you have been creating the premier daemon-hunting force in the galaxy before the Heresy, where the hell did they go? The biggest badass traitor has just rolled up at your doorstep with the support of all four Chaos Gods, so where are your daemonhunters? Why do the Grey Knights not appear in the Siege of Terra? If you're going to retcon that, at least retcon it properly - retconning does not just involve screwing over old fluff, it has to replace the old fluff with a new continuity. Otherwise all you get is speculation, and twice as much uncertain fluff.

 

Garro and his men could have had latent psychic ability due to warp exposure, yes, and I have conceded that the the Eisenstein 70 could have acted as a stand in during the Scouring, while the Grey Knights were being created. However there is no way impure geneseed (compared to the Emperor's) would be accepted into the Grey Knights, especially if it came from a traitor legion. The Imperium is a paranoid organisation, especially with the Emperor now effectively gone from the political arena, it would not stop to consider the moral implications of shooting Garro and his men for being ex-members of a traitor legion.

[Volcatius]

I have to agree with Tyrak there, Garro and the seventy may have been good enough stand-ins during the heresy, the paranoia of the Imperium wouldn't have let them continue to form the greyknights. The same warp exposure that some of you argue may have given them psychic powers would likly have tainted the seed even more in the eyes of the imperium. I can see them being proto-inquisitors/GKs, maybe participating in the training of the more known, actual inquisitors/GKs. The same reason for which Loken should be dead (it was a particularly grim and harsh war) would have led itself to some pragmatism, buy not enough for them to live on and be 'founders'. Mentors prehaps.