True Grit and Counter-Attack

[WolfLordLars]

When discussing the whole "Blood Claws get +2 on the Counter-Attack" thing with a friend of mine, he brought up a point which had me stumped. Let me quote the appropriate wording.

 

In game terms, this means that they may count their bolter (including combi-weapons, but not storm bolters) as a bolt pistol in close combat and will therefore be allowed to roll an extra Attack dice if they have been equipped iwth a second pistol or close combat weapon. However, a model using their bolter in this manner may not receive the attack bonus for charging, as a bolter is too unwieldy to be fired with one hand while simultaneously hurling yourself at the enemy

 

So, +1A, but no charging bonus.

 

To represent this,w hen a unit with this rule is assaulted by the enemy it must take a Leadership test. If the test is successful all models in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn

 

 

Originally, I thought if a GH pack with bolters was charged, they got +1A for the true-grit, and +1A for counter-charge. But, since you dont get the bonus on charging with true grit, do you get the bonus to Counter-attack?

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, I noticed it too... it also would mean that bloodclaws get +2 attacks from being assaulted.....

 

No ruling on that one yet in my group.

[Lord Howland Greywolf]

accroding to the guys at my GW, you do get the plus one for counter attack, and the plus 2 for BC. Thus making GH an efective defencive option and BC as a offencive option. Just like it should.

[Max_Dammit]

Bot dont go forgetting that counter atack on the bolter and PF he's got a +1 base atack (no extra attack for the bolter) But you can have the +1 for (counter) charging

[Ullr Direfang]

accroding to the guys at my GW, you do get the plus one for counter attack, and the plus 2 for BC.

 

wait so BC get their berserker charge, when they get charged or am i reading this wrong. that would just be awsome.

 

or is it supposed to be read, they get the +1 for CA, then their 2 (for a pistol and ccw).

 

for the GH my local store agreed that they get the TG and CA bonuses when charged.

[Wolf89]

Your BC's get 2 attacks extra, as if they had charged. :)

[Roland Durendal]

In addition to the +2 they get for Berserk Charge (which still counts even when using Counter Attack), they also get the +1 for having 2CCWs.

 

Thus, all told, regardless if you charge or are being charged, BCs armed w/ BP/CCW or BP/PW get 4 attacks :huh:

 

Those armed with BP/PF only get 3, as do those armed w/ Special Weapons (i.e. meltaguns).

 

Needless to say, BCs are a fearsome unit to have. In my 2k list I run 14 in a LRC w/ 3PFs. Just the thought of 9 PF attacks on the first turn of combat is enough to scare most opponents, and lets not forget about the additional 40 regular attacks.

 

My 1750 list I only run 13 w/ 2PW and 1 PF, w/ attached Lord and Priest in a LRC. While it is a fairly expensive one shot point sink, the ability to dish out 16 PW on the first round of combat is very satisfying. This unit wiped out (in one turn) a unit of 8-10 Banshees w/ Exarch and 6-8 jetbikes.

 

Grey Hunters on the other hand, will only ever get +1 for CCW/BP (if they have BP/CCW) and +1 for Charging/Counter Attack, for a grand total of +2 per

[TheLastHuzzah]

I think that the rules wording is dicey at best (much like a chunk of our codex). I am getting ready to put my head together with the big guys at my FLGS to come up with a "store" set of SW rules.

 

When I read the Counter-charge USR, I took it that GHs would not benefit from counter-charge due to the true grit special rule. I've generally run my 10 man GH packs with 6 bolters, meltagun and 3 special weapons (2+PL).

 

The only thing fifth edition has changed for me is the distribution of the weapons:

 

6 Bolters

1 Plasma/Melta

2 BP, Pweap

frags

 

PL- Pfist, BP, WP

 

 

I mainly play against other Marines, so the extra 3 shots don't make a ton of difference between victory and defeat. Those extra shots could be useful, but I generally try to make "all-comers" lists and would likely leave things much the same.

 

-Huzzah

[WolfLordLars]

I think some of you are missing what I am saying. Yes, the Blood Claws getting +2 on the counter-attack is established. RAW works that way.

 

What I am saying is that with the RAW, if a GH has a bolter, he does NOT get the +1 for counter-attack.

[Max_Dammit]

But do test for counter charge if you have a PF or he'll get only one attack and 2 if he passes

[Brother SRM]

I've been running my bolter Grey Hunters so when they get charged, they get the +1 attack on all on bolter/close combat weapon guys. In other words, my plasma gunner and powerfist get +1 attack, but none of the bolters do. The Blood Claws get +2, as if they were charging. I think it balances out, to tell you the truth.

[the jeske]

Your BC's get 2 attacks extra, as if they had charged. :rolleyes:

yep and thats why most tournament SW armies look like this

 

HQ /HQ/Dread

6 GH

BC max fists

BC max fists

BC max fists

BC max fists

BC max fists

2x3 attack bikes units.

[Wolf89]

Your BC's get 2 attacks extra, as if they had charged. :rolleyes:

yep and thats why most tournament SW armies look like this

 

HQ /HQ/Dread

6 GH

BC max fists

BC max fists

BC max fists

BC max fists

BC max fists

2x3 attack bikes units.

 

I have not seen that list yet... seems plausible, just like how orks are mainly foot sloggin' masses and do an amazing job...

 

Being up to 15 BC's in a squad, I bet you could pull the, "mixing of troops in the masses spread out so each squad gets a cover save for the other squad" kinda thing. Works well with orks.

[the jeske]

just like how orks are mainly foot sloggin' masses and do an amazing job...

yep and orks dont have +3 save and 4 powerfists per squad . the army is a real blast and aside for a bad match up with chaos lash armies the list is just amazing

 

And you can always get a disqualification win against that easilly . its really hard to move so many blood claws in a legal way . specially when they are all mixed .

[WolfLordLars]

Correct me if I am wrong.. but the way I am reading it, it says True Grit is OPTIONAL. Here is the wording:

 

True Grit: The Grey Hunters have the strength and skill to fire a bolter with one hand and may use the 'True Grit' rule described on page 4.

(Emphasis added)

 

I have resigned myself to the situation that GH packs are equal on the attack or counter-attack, which I suppose is as it should be (before we figured this out I thought we got +1 for True Grit and +1 for counter-attack). My question comes from the PF in my unit, who I wanted to have a bolter.

 

As it is, if I give him a bolter, I am going to say that he is NOT using True Grit, as there is no point in having an extra CCW (the bolter) since he also has a Power Fist. Meaning, if I make the leadership test, he will get the +1 attack as though he charged because I am not using the 'True Grit' rule for him.

 

May is the key word in there. They dont HAVE to use True Grit, even if armed with a bolter. This works for Wolf Guards as well... lets say a unit with Ragnar gets charged. Ragnar gives them +2 on the charge, so they can choose NOT to use True Grit if holding Bolters/Combi-weapons.. meaning they get +2 on the counter-attack.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I've been fighting with this since 5th was released....I think I agree with your assessment Lars. No extra bonus for TG(as if they assaulted) but they get their TG as normal, but this means BC's get +2 on the counter(as if they assaulted). That is how I'll try and play until GW says otherwise.

[WolfLordLars]

It sounds reasonable. Grey Hunters are the same as always (+1 for 2 CCW on the charge and counter-charge), Blood Claws get a decent boost, and as long as you make a leadership test your Power Fists will get their bonus as well (make sure to decline to use True Grit on them!). Wolf Guard can get really ugly with the Wolf Pelts.

[Grey Mage]

Thats how I play it up over here and everyones seemed to think it was pretty simple. No one gets confused as I start rolling for my LD test.

[Max_Dammit]

May is the key word in there. They dont HAVE to use True Grit, even if armed with a bolter. This works for Wolf Guards as well... lets say a unit with Ragnar gets charged. Ragnar gives them +2 on the charge, so they can choose NOT to use True Grit if holding Bolters/Combi-weapons.. meaning they get +2 on the counter-attack.

The whole point is you dont get a extra attack for having a 2nd CC weapon on the charge, nowhere it says you dont get the +1 for charging, if something its the oposit, you only get the +1

 

So i fully agree.

[Grimmwulf]

to put it in a nutshell:

Blood Claws always have +3 (or +2 with PF or special weapon) attacks if they charge or counter charge, Grey Hunters get +1 Attacks when they charge or counter charge (or +2 if they have BP + CCW/PW).

 

In further rounds of combat BC (without PF or SW) will get +1 Attack and GH (without PF or SW) will also get +1 Attack because of true grit.

 

i am a little confused ^^ did i get this right?

[barek]

I'm sorry but I don't agree. It's a army rule. Those don't seem to be optional. You have to use this rule. It defines our army.

 

Concerning the Ragnar example: if you attack with Wolf Guards with combi-bolters you get 3 attacks.

2 base attacks, 1 for charging, nothing for true grit (you dont use a bolter but a combi-bolter).

 

If they get charged the universal rule says: "... the unit gets the + 1 assault bonus, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn".

 

So, according to RAW they get only +1, which is NOT "exactly as if they had assaulted that turn".

 

So ..... ;)

 

In this case I feel Ragnar's rule seems to have the upperhand.

 

P.s.: same problem with blood claws counter attacking. According to RAW plus one attack, which is not according to our army rules which give + 2 attacks.

 

I'm not sure brothers...

[WolfLordLars]

That sounds exactly right. Provided they pass Ld tests for the charge bonus.

[Max_Dammit]

... the way I am reading it, it says True Grit is OPTIONAL.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. It's a army rule. Those don't seem to be optional. You have to use this rule. It defines our army.

Yeah but TG says you dont get the extra attack for having a 2nd CC weapon when charging, you only get the +1 for charging, so he is right

[Bobman]

May is the key word in there. They dont HAVE to use True Grit, even if armed with a bolter. This works for Wolf Guards as well... lets say a unit with Ragnar gets charged. Ragnar gives them +2 on the charge, so they can choose NOT to use True Grit if holding Bolters/Combi-weapons.. meaning they get +2 on the counter-attack.

The whole point is you dont get a extra attack for having a 2nd CC weapon on the charge, nowhere it says you dont get the +1 for charging, if something its the oposit, you only get the +1

 

So i fully agree.

 

 

Actually I think it does. It says will not recieve an attack bonus for charging ie the +1

[barek]

... the way I am reading it, it says True Grit is OPTIONAL.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. It's a army rule. Those don't seem to be optional. You have to use this rule. It defines our army.

Yeah but TG says you dont get the extra attack for having a 2nd CC weapon when charging, you only get the +1 for charging, so he is right

 

Nope. True grit does not give the +1 for charging It does give you +1 for being able to use bolter as a bolt pistol, because the user can use it to fire while being engaged in close combat (and ONLY then).

 

You can't use it for charging because the bolter is to unwieldy to fire it while charging into combat. Codex Space Wolves p. 4, special rules: " ... a model using their bolter in this (TG) manner may not receive the attack bonus for charging as a bolter is too unwieldy to be fired with one hand while simultanously hurling yourself at the enemy".

 

So it gives +1 as CCW in CC only. Not while charging. And it is not optional.

 

But who cares? This is nit-picking. Grey Hunters with TG armed with bolter get 2 attacks while engaged in combat ('charging'), and two attacks while counter attacking.

 

Combi-bolters don't get TG ( as far as I know) so a WG has 2 attacks (base) and Ragnar gives +2 means 4 attacks while charging or in counter attack. Altough this is not strictly RAW as said before. If Ragnar is not there WG with combi weapons would get 2 attacks base plus + 1 attack while counter attacking.

 

I think ...