Is spamming PFs still effective?

[Battle-Brother Wags]

We all know the glories of fielding tons of power fists in our GH and BC packs. But with the new edition, PFs have been reduced in effectiveness by a full attack, what with not being able to gain the bonus attack for not having the extra close combat weapon. So the question remains, is it still worth it to run the packs exclusively with PFs (or any PFs) now? I was thinking about running exclusively PWs in the packs but attaching Wolf Guard Pack Leaders that would have PFs. That way they at least have 2 base attacks and can take other special wargear. I'm just not sure if the PFs can pack the punch for the points anymore . . . obviously its good to have at least one, otherwise you have no way of dealing with big scary things, but to spam them? I'm not so sure anymore . . . What are your thoughts?

[OnlyInDeath]

From my experience playing, for GH, it's not as good as an option nowadays, as one dinky powerfist attack that misses half the time doesnt really make or break it. I would do the 2xPW upgrade for them. However, with BC's, the opening round (either assaulting or passing the counter attack Ld test) 3 PF attacks each means that having several fists in the unit leads to them laying down an awful lot of hurt in that round. Obviously only having one attack any round after that hurts, but usually combats dont last that long if you lead off with a big stick.

[hendrik]

it depends on your choice of hq i think

when i use my bloodclaws without a runepriest casting stormcaller on them i use the fists

however when i do have the runepriest casting stormcaller i ussually take 3or 2 PW's and in case of the 2pw,1fist

a good configuration for a CC fist wolf guard i found is PF or TH with a combiflamer,extranasty on the charge when you first lay down 2 flamertemplates^^

[the jeske]

Well it kind of a depends how your army looks like . If you try to cling to the 4ed and play with GH then yes PF arent the best of options right now . But with the way counter charge works now with BC why would you not ditch the GH to the cold grave they deserve right now [well unless you dont have enough BC models] . Best SW armies that I have seen in the 5th are BC hvy . In fact if it was possible , I wouldnt take GH at all.

[Grey Mage]

Out of my 5th Ed games I usually play 1k or 1.5k and I take 3 squads of GH and sometimes one of BC's.... Ive lost one game out of 11. Against orks, sm, chaos, DA, and eldar. I think grey hunters when used properly are just as effective as always.

 

Get in the enemies face, shoot the heck out of him and dare him to charge you. If he doesnt, charge him... and do what you were going to anyways. As an assault force they benefit greatly from the new rules on cover saves, as most heavy weapon squads Ive seen are screened by friendly units. As long as you have enough heavy support to make sure theyll regret it if they dont, most players wont run the risk.

 

I do like my BC's, but I wont take a pack without an IC. Having to charge with them isnt really a big deal... but not being able to choose where I want to shoot and where I want to charge is simply unacceptable when there is another option.

 

That said, I take 2 squads of 8 bolters, plasma pistol, plasma rifle, and powerfist, and another squad with meltagun, 2xpowerpistols, and 2xpowersords. I run the latter with an IC, usually a WGBL, and use it to scare the hell out of my opponent- Ive seen many squads run in 4rth ed, to get away from it. While they do that it lets my midrange and long range rip into them... and I usually catch them anyways. Bloodclaws are always over 10 *usually 14 or 15* and wielding triple powerfists as theres no reason not to... running with a wolf priest, with FoM and a plasma pistol.

 

Of course, in my group they ruled that as FoM references the reductor that it is in fact the whole apothecary set and works just like one from C:SM. Yes they knew the point cost, and about HPaB's when they said it too.

[Wolf89]

I've had more success giving it to say a WGL over a normal grey hunter, providing a wolf pelt, that's 4 attacks on the counter, nothing to sneeze at.

 

I've yet to try jeske's masses of blood claws, but it's spiked my curiosity and I might have to give it a go once.

[Battle-Brother Wags]

I'm not sure I like the massed blood claw concept. It doesn't seem really fluffy to me, though I suppose that is a matter of opinion. I guess some of my reasoning is also based on my expectations for the future.

 

This is what I see happening when the new codex comes out, even from a year away -

 

BCs no longer have +2 attacks on the charge and instead have furious charge.

PFs will go way up in price. Even if they're kept cheaper than is normal (as they are now, in ratio), they'll still be expensive enough that paying for 3 with one less attack each than "normal" won't be good enough anymore.

 

I am very excited about these changes if they happen, and I really see no reason to believe they won't. BCs still need something to reflect their bezerk type of fury and Furious Charge fits the bill nicely and reduces the amount of non-universal rules that need to be in play. And can you imagine 4 ST 5 attacks at initiative from at least 2 PWs in the squad? I am also thinking they might cap the number of special weapons in the BC squad to two, no matter the size . . .

 

Anyway, these are my thoughts. And I think even now with the way things are, if there is at least one PF in each squad (probably from a WG), then everything else should be PWs.

 

Incidently, someone above mentioned getting 4 attacks from a WG w/ PF on the charge? How does this work? In my thinking you've got 2 base attacks plus one for charge or countercharge makes 3. . . where is the fourth? Remember that PFs no longer count as a basic close combat weapon for getting the extra attack.

[Wolf89]

Incidently, someone above mentioned getting 4 attacks from a WG w/ PF on the charge? How does this work? In my thinking you've got 2 base attacks plus one for charge or countercharge makes 3. . . where is the fourth? Remember that PFs no longer count as a basic close combat weapon for getting the extra attack.

 

I mentioned it, and I said 4 on the counter, because of wolf pelt. ;)

[Ullr Direfang]

QUOTE (Battle-Brother Wags @ Oct 1 2008, 02:18 PM) *

Incidently, someone above mentioned getting 4 attacks from a WG w/ PF on the charge? How does this work? In my thinking you've got 2 base attacks plus one for charge or countercharge makes 3. . . where is the fourth? Remember that PFs no longer count as a basic close combat weapon for getting the extra attack.

 

 

I mentioned it, and I said 4 on the counter, because of wolf pelt. msn-wink.gif

 

well he could get 4 on the charge or 5 on the counterattack if he has 2x PF, i have thought about this but it sounds a little too... angry, all the time.

 

* add bold post thought*

[Wolf89]

well he could get 4 on the charge or 5 on the counterattack if he has 2x PF, i have thought about this but it sounds a little too... angry, all the time.

 

* add bold post thought*

 

I wish GW did something to really make 2x powerfists useful besides an extra attack... something along the lines of 2D6 armor pen would have been nice...

[Thylacine]

BCs no longer have +2 attacks on the charge and instead have furious charge.

 

Just when did this happen? There is nothing in the latest FAQ to say that "Berserk Charge" has been changed to "FURIOUS CHARGE"

 

On the charge BC's wold have one base attack, two for "Beserk Charge" (which replaces the "+1 Attack Assault Bonus") and "+1 Two Weapons". Do you guys actually lay the codex, FAQ and Rule Book out in front of you and read the rules?

[Chengar Qordath]

BCs no longer have +2 attacks on the charge and instead have furious charge.

 

Just when did this happen? There is nothing in the latest FAQ to say that "Berserk Charge" has been changed to "FURIOUS CHARGE"

 

On the charge BC's wold have one base attack, two for "Beserk Charge" (which replaces the "+1 Attack Assault Bonus") and "+1 Two Weapons". Do you guys actually lay the codex, FAQ and Rule Book out in front of you and read the rules?

 

He said that was what he expected to happen when the new Space Wolves Codex comes out, not that this was how the rules were now.

[Grey Mage]

That would suck, alot.... I dont take much in the way of bloodclaws now, but with that rules idea... Im not sure Id ever take them.

[Wolf89]

That would suck, alot.... I dont take much in the way of bloodclaws now, but with that rules idea... Im not sure Id ever take them.

 

They're not THAT bad, furious charge more than makes up for the loss of an attack, it's just that their counter won't be as good as it is right now, which most agree is really powerful and is a gift anyways. The extra I, S, and WS is welcome in my book.

 

The only thing that worries me is "power fists will go WAY up", by WAY up I hope he means like 2-3 points like normal space marine cost for single wounded models... or are we going to have to pay term honors on top of power fists for a single model... either way it's not looking good for the short in tooth.

[Grey Mage]

Sorry, but more than the Grey Hunter price for PF would be insane. These are shock troops... they need to be shocking....

 

FC doesnt quite the way BC does. They dont get faster on the draw, or stronger... if anything theyd get stronger as they got older as these are the equivilants of Scouts! the extra attacks the first round makes the most sense IMHO.

[Wolf89]

FC doesnt quite the way BC does. They dont get faster on the draw, or stronger... if anything theyd get stronger as they got older as these are the equivilants of Scouts! the extra attacks the first round makes the most sense IMHO.

 

I think FC is the closest thing to BC, since it's only if/when they charge (since I thought they'd loose counter attack? if not that'd be sick and overpowered! ;) ). I see BC's getting amped up before they charge, I mean with all that adrenaline you don't think they can't pull off one more measly S? I don't see a problem with it. On a side note, the WS is 4 and BS is still 3 so it's a lot better imho.

 

I do think the extra attacks overall was fluffier, (since they were just flayling around trying to hit stuff), but GW's getting rid of it, and I think FC is a good substitute.

[OnlyInDeath]

Well, lets do some math-fu for FC vs BC.

 

BC for 10 Bloodclaws:

4 attacks on the charge

Hitting most models on 4+, so roughly 20 hits

Wounding most models on 4+ (assuming T4), so roughly 10 wounds

*** Hitting at I4, so striking SIMO (against most foes)***

 

FC for 10 Bloodclaws

3 attacks on the charge

Hitting most models on a 4+, so roughly 15 hits

Wounding most models on a 3+ (assuming T4), so roughly 10 wounds

*** Hitting at I5, so striking FIRST (against most foes)***

 

So in the end, same number of wounds mathematically speaking, but you would be going first against any I4 or below models, which actually makes bloodclaws much more potent IMO. Yes, loosing counter charge would be a hefty blow, but it would just mean that we have to protect our claws just like most marines have to protect their assault marines. One thing to keep in mind is that the other rumor out there is that bloodclaws will have WS4 base now, which will actually give them much better odds at surviving getting charged (lets face it, it sucks getting charged when most opponents are hitting you on 3+! ). As long as they dont totally hose us on unit upgrades like fists/pw's, then I think bloodclaws will stay just as powerful as they are now.

[Wolf89]

Well, lets do some math-fu for FC vs BC.

 

BC for 10 Bloodclaws:

4 attacks on the charge

Hitting most models on 4+, so roughly 20 hits

Wounding most models on 4+ (assuming T4), so roughly 10 wounds

*** Hitting at I4, so striking SIMO (against most foes)***

 

FC for 10 Bloodclaws

3 attacks on the charge

Hitting most models on a 4+, so roughly 15 hits

Wounding most models on a 3+ (assuming T4), so roughly 10 wounds

*** Hitting at I5, so striking FIRST (against most foes)***

 

So in the end, same number of wounds mathematically speaking, but you would be going first against any I4 or below models, which actually makes bloodclaws much more potent IMO. Yes, loosing counter charge would be a hefty blow, but it would just mean that we have to protect our claws just like most marines have to protect their assault marines. One thing to keep in mind is that the other rumor out there is that bloodclaws will have WS4 base now, which will actually give them much better odds at surviving getting charged (lets face it, it sucks getting charged when most opponents are hitting you on 3+! ). As long as they dont totally hose us on unit upgrades like fists/pw's, then I think bloodclaws will stay just as powerful as they are now.

 

That's how I did it, and the next round sees you getting hit on 4's instead of 3's like they do now which is also good. I also like the chance of being able to pop tanks easier on the charge.

[OnlyInDeath]

Yeah, no joke. Those fists would be coming in at str9. Yikes!

[Thylacine]

I think this thread is just wishful thinking and I would prefer the BC's stayed the way they are. But I ran the numbers over a combat calculator and here are the results.

 

Blood Claws assaulting, one round of combat 2x PF, 10 BC's V 10 SM's the Sgt having a PF:

 

 

Hand to hand combat results

Number of runs = 1

Squads have same initiative - Squads attack simultaneously

Run 1

Squad 1

No of attacks: 4 x 10 attackers

Roll to hit: 2 1 4 2 4 3 5 2 5 1 2 4 4 6 4 3 2 2 1 6 2 4 1 5 6 1 4 2 5 6 2 1 1 6 4 4 1 4 5 1 ... 20 hits!

Roll to wound: 1 5 4 6 3 1 1 3 3 1 3 2 2 2 4 3 2 4 4 6 ... 16 wounds!

Roll armour save(s): 6 3 1 4 4 1 2 3 5 5 3 3 6 1 2 2 ... 16 failed! ... 10 enemy dead!

Squad 2

No of attacks: 2 x 10 attackers

Roll to hit: 6 6 6 6 1 1 6 3 5 6 2 3 6 2 2 4 2 6 2 6 ... 13 hits!

Roll to wound: 1 6 1 3 2 4 6 3 4 2 3 6 6 ... 11 wounds!

Roll armour save(s): 2 1 5 3 2 4 4 3 5 1 5 ... 11 failed! ... 10 enemy dead!

Outcome

Squad 2 all dead! No morale check necessary.

Summary of 1 runs

Squad 1:

Average wounds saved = 0

Average unsaved wounds = 11

Average dead = 10

No. times broken = 0 (0%)

No. times wiped out = 0 (0%)

Squad 2:

Average wounds saved = 0

Average unsaved wounds = 16

Average dead = 10

No. times broken = 0 (0%)

No. times wiped out = 1 (100%)

Calculation time: 0.313secs

 

 

Now with the BC; having Furious Charge rather than Berserk Charge!

 

Number of runs = 1

Squad 1 has higher initiative - Squad 1 attacks first

Run 1

Squad 1

No of attacks: 4 x 10 attackers

Roll to hit: 3 3 4 3 3 3 5 3 2 5 4 5 2 3 6 3 1 1 2 3 4 2 2 3 5 1 6 6 4 3 5 3 6 6 1 6 3 1 1 4 ... 16 hits!

Roll to wound: 6 3 3 5 4 6 4 2 4 2 5 1 4 2 4 6 ... 15 wounds!

Roll armour save(s): 5 1 2 5 1 1 2 6 5 1 4 3 2 2 4 ... 15 failed! ... 10 enemy dead!

Squad 2

No of attacks: 2 x 0 attackers

Roll to hit: ... 0 hits!

Outcome

Squad 2 all dead! No morale check necessary.

Summary of 1 runs

Squad 1:

Average wounds saved = 0

Average unsaved wounds = 0

Average dead = 0

No. times broken = 0 (0%)

No. times wiped out = 0 (0%)

Squad 2:

Average wounds saved = 0

Average unsaved wounds = 15

Average dead = 10

No. times broken = 0 (0%)

No. times wiped out = 1 (100%)

Calculation time: 0.614secs

 

It won't happen as BC's will be too good! Then again against Eldar?

[saphius]

I would take Berzerk Over Furious any and everyday. First, Make more sense from a fluff standpoint imo. Second, Furious charge in place of berzerk really negates the use of powerfists, again imo, because from fourth to fifth edition you dropped from 4 on the charge per model with a 12 pt fist, to 2 on the charge with a 15-20 pts fist. (point cost estimated.) 3 on the charge is still effective, and why I still run my claws with 2 fists and 1 PW. And furious charge helps out PF almost not at all. (Aside from hitting more often, but, with less attacks.) What it really does, is make bloodclaws less versitile, but more effective against infantry. I've always liked the ability to kill big things though. And while I realize they will probably get crack grenades, there are many things that aren't vehicles that I would like to be able to kill. So the exchange would have it's up side. (assuming this ever happens as this is all speculation.) But at to high a cost. Just my point of view.

[OnlyInDeath]

1. :cuss are you having as squad 2 in the first scenario? they are wounding with their attacks at anything but a 1, and evidently the BC's have a 6+ armor save? I'm confused as to what you are doing there.

 

2. BC's won't be TOO good, they will be the equivalent of a strong assault squad, not overpowered. I'm sure we'll pay the points for it. They will most likely lose counter attack so the best tactic against them would be to charge them. Considering what many other marines will be getting with various squad upgrades (think sternguard or vanguard) it's not like BC's will be above and beyond anything that marines can field. Furious charge isnt a massive upgrade by any means. That being said, many of the new codecies have squads that can be considered "overpowered". Look at bloodletters. Furious charge, space marine stats, and armed with ALL power weapons. Or, out of the same codex, a 45 point flamer model that wounds on a 4+ and NO saves allowed except invuln. I'm sorry, but you have got to be kidding to say that BC's with furious charge would be considered "too good" and they wont happen. Units overall are getting more empowered with any new codex. It's what's happening. Gotta live with it.

[Thylacine]

1. :cuss are you having as squad 2 in the first scenario? they are wounding with their attacks at anything but a 1, and evidently the BC's have a 6+ armor save? I'm confused as to what you are doing there.

 

I just saw the problem and I am attempting to contact the person who wrote up the spreadsheet, it was a co-operative thing and somewhat complex. I had not noticed the problem in the past and think that it is new.

 

BTW I have been trying to get my hands on a copy of it for some time now as it is on line but not for download. There are a couple floating around but this 'was' the best.

[Wolf89]

First thing, it isn't wishful thinking, the furious charge is something that we've been hearing for a while so it seems very plausible.

 

Second, your calculator-FU is WEAK! do the math yourself, it may take longer, more brain power, but in the end you'll be more accurate, and feel better about doing something yourself. Plus some of those are totally random, I one time had a squad of grots kill a full tactical squad, quite humorous, but not possible at ALL. -_-

 

Third, as to elaborate a little more on what OID said about bloodletters. I play chaos daemons, pure khorne for the most part, and bloodletters on the charge is one of the scariest things in the game, nigh nothing can stand in their way and they're dirt cheap. If they're assaulted however then it's MUCH worse for them, furious charge plays a HUGE factor in how they win and it's a great buff to have for our fellow blood claws and I hope we get it.

 

On a side note, if your facing bloodletters, keep your GH's in cover, when they drop down, shoot them, don't assault, just keep shooting. If they're out of rapid fire range you're in luck, you should be able to kill the whole squad before they get to you (10 man vs. 10 man) if they're in rapid fire range, then you should kill 4-5 in shooting, then in assault (mind you grey hunters, not normal tactical marines) you'll kill 2-3 more before they get to strike back (they dont' have any nades whatsoever, as for daemonettes this is a different story but I won't get into that now I'm straying off to much already) and they'll in return kill 3-4 marines. If you had assaulted them in open ground without shooting they'd have slaughered the unit hands down. Just a little something to keep in mind. I think I should write a daemon tactica for Space Wolves... at least against khorne. I play both competitively (lol chaos competitive :P ) and I think I have enough knowledge on them...

 

Ugh, back onto topic, I agree with saphius that 15-20 points per fist is still an effective spending in points for a BC pack, I wouldn't mind that point hike.

[Thylacine]

Firstly, "the furious charge is something that we've been hearing for a while", right from who, people like you? So you want Blood Claws which are the equivalent to SM Scouts in price and background , to be the equal of what? Stenguard? Just how is that to fit into the established storyline of the Space Wolves???

 

Second, rolling the dice yourself or having the rolls computer generated, it is still random. Your sounding childish!

 

Third, I had nothing to say on what OID wrote so I said nothing. BTW I only play Space Wolves, I could not give a cold toss about the rest. As for lucky shots, I once had a Rhino with a HK missile sitting in front of the oppositions Land Raider, rolled a 5 to hit, a 6 for penetration and a 6 for damage. No big deal, stuff happens all the time. In a tournament I rolled 14 dice for the GH's and ended up with 7 ones and 7 twos, ok use the flamer, cover all the enemy, roll 6 twos! Like I wrote stuff happens.

 

First thing, it isn't wishful thinking, the furious charge is something that we've been hearing for a while so it seems very plausible.

 

Second, your calculator-FU is WEAK! do the math yourself, it may take longer, more brain power, but in the end you'll be more accurate, and feel better about doing something yourself. Plus some of those are totally random, I one time had a squad of grots kill a full tactical squad, quite humorous, but not possible at ALL. :)

 

Third, as to elaborate a little more on what OID said about bloodletters. I play chaos daemons, pure khorne for the most part, and bloodletters on the charge is one of the scariest things in the game, nigh nothing can stand in their way and they're dirt cheap. If they're assaulted however then it's MUCH worse for them, furious charge plays a HUGE factor in how they win and it's a great buff to have for our fellow blood claws and I hope we get it.

 

On a side note, if your facing bloodletters, keep your GH's in cover, when they drop down, shoot them, don't assault, just keep shooting. If they're out of rapid fire range you're in luck, you should be able to kill the whole squad before they get to you (10 man vs. 10 man) if they're in rapid fire range, then you should kill 4-5 in shooting, then in assault (mind you grey hunters, not normal tactical marines) you'll kill 2-3 more before they get to strike back (they dont' have any nades whatsoever, as for daemonettes this is a different story but I won't get into that now I'm straying off to much already) and they'll in return kill 3-4 marines. If you had assaulted them in open ground without shooting they'd have slaughered the unit hands down. Just a little something to keep in mind. I think I should write a daemon tactica for Space Wolves... at least against khorne. I play both competitively (lol chaos competitive :) ) and I think I have enough knowledge on them...

 

Ugh, back onto topic, I agree with saphius that 15-20 points per fist is still an effective spending in points for a BC pack, I wouldn't mind that point hike.