Is spamming PFs still effective?

[barek]

Firstly, "the furious charge is something that we've been hearing for a while", ...

 

BOLS for example, and many threads in this forum.

[OnlyInDeath]

Yeah, most of what I've heard is from BOLS, and those boys were spot on when it came to the new SM codex. Obviously I'm taking it overall with a grain of salt, but I think it makes sence. Giving them furious charge is a way for them to maintian their combat potency without having their very own rule of charging (Bc). That said, it would only be fair to make the PF's in the squad more expensive to match with what other armies have to pay. The special weaps I think are where SW's are going to see the biggest changes. Should be interesting.

 

Either way, this is conjecture on something that would happen a year in the future and to bicker about it is silly. In the current rules, which is what this thread is about, decking out your BC's with PF's is definately a good option, same as it's always been. Especially now that assaulting vehicles counts on rear armor. For most tanks that means you will be glancing on a 2, pen on a 3. Go fists!

[Wolf89]

Thylacine, don't take my 2nd comment to be childish or sarcastic or anything like that. I admit the word "weak" was probably out of place there, I was merely suggesting that even when using the software, it's always good to double check yourself. Sorry for any wrong ideas I gave you I meant nothing harsh by it.

 

I don't believe BC's are anything like SM scouts, the scouts are more along the lines of survival over anything and use stealth and trickery to do it. Blood claws are out there for the sole purpose of killing some xenos at any cost, even their own lives.

 

Also, I posted the bit about bloodletters to go off of what OID was saying about furious charge, I didn't post the strategy if you were playing chaos daemons, I was posting if you were playing AGAINST them, something that I do quite often as well and I was just showing that on the charge, furious charge is amazing and is something (if the blood claws get it) that you should strive to achieve. Their charge means everything. :tu:

 

Sorry if I strayed off topic somewhat, I'll refrain from getting too far off, but I thought the post fitted in this situation, sorry for my lack of judgement.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Let's watch the personal attacks please. Your comments hold more without the attacks.

[Grey Mage]

Sorry, not mattter what the math says, unless Im taking powerweapon only bloodclaws I would never want furious charge. Ever. The simple fact that I get an extra chance to hit makes it better in my mind. at str 8, its a 2+ to wound most anything, and a 4+ to wound the toughest creatures in the game. That being said the extra attacks trying to get the precious 4+ is worth more in my mind.

 

*spreads hands* Terminators die to lasguns some games... after making invulnerable saves all round... and then rolling five ones. Statistics are great Im sure, but I still maintain they arent the right way to do it. Imperical evidence is better.

 

Or as I say to my friends in the gaming group when they tell me Im rolling way to well, or poorly: Statistics are for people who dont know how to do math.

[Thylacine]

"Im taking powerweapon only bloodclaws I would never want furious charge. Ever. "

 

This has always been my thinking, I have never been a great fan of Power fists in my GH packs as they are always targeted, where a Power weapon slips by to do its work.

 

As for BOLS, sometimes what they say come true and sometimes it is off the mark, certain things are 'leaked' from works-in-progress by GW staff to keep the players interest up. As for their rules rumours on a new SW codex, I think it is just a wish list. All of the top people from GW have repeatedly stated that they are not even considering a new SW codex at the moment, they repeatedly state that it is good the way it is!

 

We may think it is showing its age but the FAQ's should keep it in line with the other codices and with the one point increase in the cost of a SM means our GH's arn't that more expensive now. Relentless would be a better option for BC's, shooting even just one more shot before charging would be worth it seeing as they don't carry heavy weapons and are compelled to charge at 6". The cheap Power fists are there because the model has a low BS and WS, must charge and if toting a Power fist strikes last. All that equals a one hit wonder against veteran squads and characters.

 

If you want to complain about prices, for what he does and what he costs the Iron Priest is a good place to start, sit down with the SM and SW codex and start deduction the costs of weapons and wargear from both models and find out what the bare bones cost is! Then you will see how ripped off we are.

 

You could also look at the recent price increase in the cost of the Whirlwind and Vindicator to bring them in-line with the SM codex. No one took into account why the price did not rise with the previous SM codex, I'll give you a hint. The absence of heavy weapons in the GH packs, the price on those two vehicles was kept low to even things up. Someone seems to have forgotten that.

 

I rarely use BC's I only have a minimal pack and they have Jump packs, they are there for two reasons, I was taking hits on composition scores in tournaments because I did not have a FA choice and because the opposition does not expect to see them with Jump packs. I am still not sure if they are worth their 136 points, with the ebb and flow of the game I never seem to have them where I need them!

 

Added dropped word 'more'

[OnlyInDeath]

Or as I say to my friends in the gaming group when they tell me Im rolling way to well, or poorly: Statistics are for people who dont know how to do math.

 

Grey Mage....I dont even know where to start with a quote like that, but I'll keep it simple. Statistics is the law of averages. For all the games you roll extremely well, there will be equal amounts, over the long term, where you roll like crap. Averages, when taken not on a single basis, but over time on multiple games, prove true. I'm not going to tell ya how to equp your dudes, but a comment like this kinda just boggles my mind. By playing to the law of averages, you will make a unit more reliable over time. Another point to comment on, which you totally bypassed, is the fact that furious charge, while mathematically speaking will give you the same number of wounds, WILL LET YOU STRIKE FIRST against most opponents (at I5). So yeah, go ahead and take those power weaps, you will get a bunch of unsavable wounds first before your opponents get to strike.

 

To Thylacine, I'm confused about the relentless comment. That has to do with heavy weaps and being able to assault...BC's can assault and shoot in the same turn no matter what, as the FAQ states they cannot shoot a plasma gun (rapid fire) if they are in charge range. Therefore, they can fire anything else, including any other special weapon, and charge in the same turn as they are all "assault" weapons, not heavy or rapid fire.

 

I completely agree with you in regards to the IP and the heavy support choices. In regards to those, SW's got hosed

 

As for your pack of blood claws...I would highly suggest at least playtesting a large unit with the ability to get them into combat. I play a LRC with 12-14 BC's, flamer, 2x PF and 1x PW, usually led by an IC. Try this out and you will see why a lot of people love BC's. I personally dont field my fast attack with jump packs and instead see the extra points cost (30 for a fast attack model, sheesh!) as a way to keep them on bikes and have the T5, 3+ invuln on turbo boost unit that can get into assault by turn 2. Again, led by an IC to give some REAL punch to it all. BC's are worth more than you give them credit for, it's just in how you decide to play them. Play them poorly, and I'm pretty sure you will be disappointed. Play them well, and they will shatter your opponent's lines.

[Grey Mage]

Actually Im fairly familiar with statistics, Im a buisness major after all. I rather enjoy math, being one of my passions, second to poetry. However because I understand math I know that its not infalable. I also know that the greater the number of possibilities the higher the standard deviation tends to be. I prefer to play with the standard deviation than the strait line of statistics.

 

Why? Because ive found that I can recover from things going wrong... even horribly wrong. If I cant, well then it was certainly wasnt one round of bad rolls that had a low potential.

 

On the other hand Ive found that having something with a high potential... such as bloodclaws charging as they do now, or bladestorming with eldar Dire Avengers.... increases my chances of causing the wounds that kill the enemy. Why? Because every time you add a die you increase the number of chances you have... and those chances are covered under statistics- got that. But what you also change is the potential you have.

 

So you have I5.... unless your striking against I5 opponents it actually doest make a lick of difference as I4 would have been simultaneous with you anyways and I6+ will always beat you anyways. So youll make just as many strikes as you would if you were I4 most of the time. Str5 will help you make wounds... I cant, and wont, deny that. And with normal and powerweapon guys this is a great advantage- lets me have a prayer of killing wraithlords for a single turn. out of a pack of 15 youll get 45 of these attacks... pretty nice.

 

On the other hand powerfists.... and beserk charge. No advantage to wounding here. Either you can or you cant. Wraithlords are out oreach for 12 of the squad, and everything less is just plain tough as it is for any other marine. The real difference is that on that charge you get 57 attacks.

 

If you get that very rare occurrance of complete hits, that means you have 12 more hits to work with when you use beserk charge. Because the total number of attacks is higher it also means that your average number of attacks that will hit is larger even if you roll statisticly, wich gives you a larger base for your wounds.

 

I know its a personal preference but Id rather take the chance to have a higher success rate but less gauranteed effect and try my luck. The best part is I find it works- any time in my life Ive gone for the most secure route its ended up costing me big. Taking a calculated risk for greater return while minimising risk... thats what its all about. After all, T4 and 3+ save are always going to be like that, furious chare or no. And before you say it- yes, if they have I5 theyll strike before they can get hit, meaing statisticly they are more likely to survive.

 

For that I trust in T4 and 3+ saves, because thats what marines do. And if they die... they die. Thats why I like playing with plastic models on the board, even if I give them names they still cant really die.

 

Edit: missed two words.

[Wolf89]

@ OID and Thylacine about long fangs:

 

It's not that big of a deal, fluff wise they have to be smaller. Also we gain split fire, which until tau received it, not many people out there had this luxury, especially with heavy weapons!

 

I frankly hope they don't change them too much, possibly 1-2 ablative wounds, but anymore and it's too much, also heavy weapons should go down as they did in C:SM.

 

@ Grey Mage:

 

I understand deviation as well, and while you can play well in your head about I5 not being THAT big of a deal, it really is. I agree with you that getting to roll buckets of dice will give you better results than having the few dice to roll a 2+ bit or whatever, but when you take into account multiple factors it's quite clear furious charge is better.

 

The higher weapon skill (keeps your more survivable and in some cases increased killing power), the increased strength (not only helps you kill more than you could before, but gave you the ability to tactically manuvre like you wouldn't have before to destroy things like vehicles that you wouldn't have looked at in the past), the increased initiative (keeps you more survivable and increases your chance to overrun). The cost? 1 loss in a dice roll to each squad member, this extra attack covers only half the variables.

 

Either way, as you stated, it's all fine and dandy on the statistical level but until you play games with it, it's meaningless. Well I play with furious charge 2-4 times a week and I see the rolls and I can tell you my friend, Russ would approve. ;)

[Thylacine]

OID

 

"To Thylacine, I'm confused about the relentless comment. That has to do with heavy weaps and being able to assault...BC's can assault and shoot in the same turn no matter what, as the FAQ states they cannot shoot a plasma gun (rapid fire) if they are in charge range. Therefore, they can fire anything else, including any other special weapon, and charge in the same turn as they are all "assault" weapons, not heavy or rapid fire."

 

It is the limited range 12" and limited shooting 1 shot that is the downside to pistols, they should be Assault 2, at BS3 they just won't do enough to do any real damage in a round of shooting and then you have to rely on the PF's or PW's to bring down the unit being assaulted. The flamer is a good choice as you can fit a lot of models under the template, but will it bring down marines? The Melta-gun will give a kill most of the time but at a loss of attacks. If BC's had something like Relentless where pistols were Assault 2 or where they could use the Plasma gun I could see the unit being much better even at BS3.

 

Which weapon would you prefer in the BC's pack Flamer or Melta gun?

 

I don't own a LRC, I do have three of the OOP LR's and one FW M2B but I find that in the local 1750 point tournaments they soak up too many points. The Land Raiders only come out for Apocalypse events. I know one guy down here who brings two LR's to tournaments every other year and his list is well, small which may be the reason he does not win many games.

 

Wulf 89

 

"@ OID and Thylacine about long fangs:" ?

 

I am not into Long Fangs, split fire is good but if the Sgt is removed so is the rule and in a 5 man pack if you have to remove a model will you take the Sgt or one of the heavy weapons?

 

The only way I would take Long Fangs is an all or nothing approach, that's three packs of them or none at all. They are expensive, have no ablative wounds, can be targeted behind other troops and when I have played against them they have never been much of an obstacle to me. Lastly seeing I tend to run mechanised SW lists they would not fit the storyline as well as the Predators.

[Grey Mage]

Id take a heavy weapon the first two times, then the seargent.... then Id hurt myself for letting them take so much damage.

[the jeske]

ok lets look at the units that can open fire on them . A dakka pred ? 2 turns of shoting LF almost unusable . Oblits [without lash] one turn of shoting . Dakka tyran . Woe to the LF , 2 saves on each one . Sm devastator ? same again . Dread droping double taping with flamers ? same again . All of that wouldnt be a problem , if [in most cases] units listed here didnt cost less then the LF . I didnt do the round up against hth units as we all know that LF are dead if assaulted.

[Grey Mage]

A dark reaper unit costs almost as much as a long fang squad fully kitted out, and also is only a 5 man squad... never had a problem with either.

 

The whole point of the long fang sqauds ability to split fire is that it should be able to reliably take on anything on the board that could damage it. Dakka predator? Fine, lascannon it. Tyranids? Fire the whole squad at it if needed, or split fire and kill two big uglies. Obliterators? Lascannon them, plasmacannon them, same with enemy termies, devastators and so on.

 

If your problem is first turn, then why arent they screened? its not hard to screen them and then move out of the way to give lines of fire... obliterate whatever is in that line of fire, and then do iot again next turn.

 

Warwalkers have the same problem, with the same answer- dont get hit, play it smarter. They arent meant to stand up and take a hit... thats for tougher, or in this case younger and more plentiful, units.

[the jeske]

A dark reaper unit costs almost as much as a long fang squad fully kitted out, and also is only a 5 man squad... never had a problem with either.

ah yes dark reapers . difference is the shoting ratio and better weapon , fortune [re-rolled cover +3 yes please] and ... most people still dont play them because there are better options .

 

 

Fire the whole squad at it if needed, or split fire and kill two big uglies.

:angry: wow . but you do know that MC generally have more then 2 wounds and cant be instant deathed . Your lascanons/ RL are what hvy 4 or something ?

 

 

Obliterators? Lascannon them, plasmacannon them, same with enemy termies, devastators and so on.

 

If your problem is first turn, then why arent they screened? its not hard to screen them and then move out of the way to give lines of fire... obliterate whatever is in that line of fire, and then do iot again next turn

ok first thing the oblits can move/deep strike and LF cant . sure you screen LF with a rhino[more pts for LF-and doesnt work against deep strike , drop pods , nids , lash lords with flight etc ] but if you the enemies hvys dont see you , then you dont see them . Now if SW had hvy support in troops [like the sm or lesser extent csm] , it wouldnt be a big problem . you could gear them to take out horde units . Sadlly its not the case .

 

+ as anti tank they are really costlly the 4RL arent cheap and taking 4 lascanons with 5 man is suicide

 

Warwalkers have the same problem, with the same answer- dont get hit, play it smarter.

yes maybe that why they arent played , unless in a set up of 9 with farseers casting re rolls of them + they are [unlike long fangs] pretty much immune to small arms fire . Also the number of dice rolled by them is huge .

 

 

I dont know , sometimes I think all of you guys play on city fight boards . Because on a normal table hiding units is not so easy .

[Lord Ragnarok]

Well it kind of a depends how your army looks like . If you try to cling to the 4ed and play with GH then yes PF arent the best of options right now . But with the way counter charge works now with BC why would you not ditch the GH to the cold grave they deserve right now [well unless you dont have enough BC models] . Best SW armies that I have seen in the 5th are BC hvy . In fact if it was possible , I wouldnt take GH at all.

 

Not sure about mech. or slogging wolves, but drop podding wolves still benefit by having more bolter armed GH's v/s BC's since you cannot immiediatley maximize the talents of the BC's when they arrive(assualting) and GH's can double tap, take plenty of short range special weapons, and still have fists, powerweapons.

[Wolf89]

Well it kind of a depends how your army looks like . If you try to cling to the 4ed and play with GH then yes PF arent the best of options right now . But with the way counter charge works now with BC why would you not ditch the GH to the cold grave they deserve right now [well unless you dont have enough BC models] . Best SW armies that I have seen in the 5th are BC hvy . In fact if it was possible , I wouldnt take GH at all.

 

Not sure about mech. or slogging wolves, but drop podding wolves still benefit by having more bolter armed GH's v/s BC's since you cannot immiediatley maximize the talents of the BC's when they arrive(assualting) and GH's can double tap, take plenty of short range special weapons, and still have fists, powerweapons.

 

Hence as of right now my drop pod list has all grey hunters in the pods, and the only BC's are on bikes. ;)

 

If you're playing a really large game, I could see a squad of BC's in a pod effective, if they make an effective screen to block them from getting shot at then next turn run around and assault, but other than that I'd rather take Grey Hunters.

[the jeske]

Well it kind of a depends how your army looks like . If you try to cling to the 4ed and play with GH then yes PF arent the best of options right now . But with the way counter charge works now with BC why would you not ditch the GH to the cold grave they deserve right now [well unless you dont have enough BC models] . Best SW armies that I have seen in the 5th are BC hvy . In fact if it was possible , I wouldnt take GH at all.

 

Not sure about mech. or slogging wolves, but drop podding wolves still benefit by having more bolter armed GH's v/s BC's since you cannot immiediatley maximize the talents of the BC's when they arrive(assualting) and GH's can double tap, take plenty of short range special weapons, and still have fists, powerweapons.

yeah but with RAW and the SW FAQ going to any normal game [not with friends ] using drop pods and SW may have some problems .

 

For tournament play and any shop games drop pods SW is ..well kind of a dead , right now.

[Battle-Brother Wags]

Ok, wow, I lose my interent connection for a while and things get interesting :-)

 

To try to draw things back to the original intent of the thread, I would just like to clarify that my assumptions for the future are inded based on some of the widely accepted rumors as have come to us through BOLS and other sources, but also by watching what seems to be going on in the broader GW mindset regarding the development of rules, namely to decrease, or eliminate altogether, unique rules as much as possible. I would be VERY surprised if Blood Claws kept their bezerk charge whenever we get our new codex. The biggest reason is because they become far too powerful when put in combination with countercharge, unless they decide to increase their points, which I think we could all agree would be lamentable. Concerning the price of powerfists, well, I agree with whoever said that BCs need to be shocking because their shock troops. Two things result from that. I believe, therefore, using my own logic, so disagree with me or not, just dont' claim that I'm simply being wishful in my thinking, that 1) Power Fists (along with probably all other special weapons) will go up significantly in price, but probably not quite as expensive for BCs as normal. But they will still be more expensive than they are now by a considerable amount. 2) Taking more expensive Power Fists and the likely loss of Bezerk Charge in favor of Furious Charge into account, BCs decked out with Power Weapons will still be a tremendous force to contend with. You get the extra attack for a second close combat weapon and all attacks become ST5 at I5. I'm really not sure why people would think this is so horrible a combination. This sounds like a great combination to me, but not too overpowered because they don't gain any benefit from it during the counterattack. I would be happy with this and it seems the most likely situation to me.

 

At any rate, let me offer a few more comments or suggestions to get us back on track.

 

If BC powerfists became 18-20 points, which I think would be very reasonable, considering what PFs cost in the new C:SM, would you consider them to be worth it? So lets say everthing else remains the same so you can still take 3 power fists in a large squad of BCs. That would be 54-60 points for 9 S8 attacks on the charge, 3 S8 attacks thereafter. Currently we get 12 attacks on the charge for almost half the points. That just seems awful steep a price to me to make it worth it. Now obviously if PFs don't end up being that expensive, then it gets more cost-effective, but I really don't see the 18-20 price range being unreasonable.

 

So perhaps with the current prices PFs are still cost effective of a sort, but I honeslty don't think, to go back to the title, that spamming PFs in BC packs will be worthwhile.

 

So what do you think?

 

And to remind, I'm not saying that this is a rumor set in stone, I'm saying this is what I am personally expecting. I think it is reasonable, follows the trend we've seen in the newer codexes, and balances the BCs out nicely. Now I'll be wishful in my thinking: BC jump packs will actually be a reasonable price, say only 2 points more than a standard jump pack marine.

[Wolf89]

I really hope they reduce the price of the jump pack variant, I'd definitely start using them again.

[Grey Mage]

Why wouldnt furious charge activate on Countercharge? I thought you gained ALL the benefits of charging...

[Lord Ragnarok]

Well it kind of a depends how your army looks like . If you try to cling to the 4ed and play with GH then yes PF arent the best of options right now . But with the way counter charge works now with BC why would you not ditch the GH to the cold grave they deserve right now [well unless you dont have enough BC models] . Best SW armies that I have seen in the 5th are BC hvy . In fact if it was possible , I wouldnt take GH at all.

 

Not sure about mech. or slogging wolves, but drop podding wolves still benefit by having more bolter armed GH's v/s BC's since you cannot immiediatley maximize the talents of the BC's when they arrive(assualting) and GH's can double tap, take plenty of short range special weapons, and still have fists, powerweapons.

yeah but with RAW and the SW FAQ going to any normal game [not with friends ] using drop pods and SW may have some problems .

 

For tournament play and any shop games drop pods SW is ..well kind of a dead , right now.

 

My comments assume the opposite, otherwise I won't be playing :lol:

 

@Wolf89---As far as BC's in DP's, I used them in 4th just fine. I listened to littlbitz and removed the fists and gave them PP's. (and they still kill enough with BS3)

BC's offer a few more bodies for the pts, when our lists are so pt heavy/model anemic. I think 5th Ed. rules make them even more attractive in DP lists as I can now attach an IC with them in the pod, and they can make use of counterattack (with higher chance of making the roll with my WL). The WL also adds another PP so there would be some decent shooting when the pod lands.

[Wolf89]

@Wolf89---As far as BC's in DP's, I used them in 4th just fine. I listened to littlbitz and removed the fists and gave them PP's. (and they still kill enough with BS3)

BC's offer a few more bodies for the pts, when our lists are so pt heavy/model anemic. I think 5th Ed. rules make them even more attractive in DP lists as I can now attach an IC with them in the pod, and they can make use of counterattack (with higher chance of making the roll with my WL). The WL also adds another PP so there would be some decent shooting when the pod lands.

 

I have a hard enough time hitting with PP with BS4, but I can imagine the low point costs of a BC unit is always welcome to the amount of distraction it'll provide to give your GH some much needed elbow room.

 

I still think at least one power fist in the BC unit is needed, especially if you face that walker, I mean drop podding in it can happen for sure, then without a high enough Strength, and your nades mean nothing, you're really screwed. Maybe your scatter dice are luckier than mine, but I find box cars quite often when it doesn't serve me. :D

 

So what about a WGBL with a heavy flamer, AC, or a combi flamer to fill in the HQ slot with the BC's. That should pack a punch. Plus you'd use a flamer template with the BC's and really cause some carnage. Put in a WGPL in there with a combi flamer as well and let the good times roll.

[Lord Ragnarok]

have a hard enough time hitting with PP with BS4, but I can imagine the low point costs of a BC unit is always welcome to the amount of distraction it'll provide to give your GH some much needed elbow room.

 

I still think at least one power fist in the BC unit is needed, especially if you face that walker, I mean drop podding in it can happen for sure, then without a high enough Strength, and your nades mean nothing, you're really screwed. Maybe your scatter dice are luckier than mine, but I find box cars quite often when it doesn't serve me.

 

So what about a WGBL with a heavy flamer, AC, or a combi flamer to fill in the HQ slot with the BC's. That should pack a punch. Plus you'd use a flamer template with the BC's and really cause some carnage. Put in a WGPL in there with a combi flamer as well and let the good times roll.

 

In my BC's I always include a WG with THammer and WTN for nasty IC's that want to assault the BC's after podding.

 

They also always a flamer.

 

 

I thought WGBL could only take the Heavy Weapon if they had termie armor.

 

And of course, for a pod army combi weapons are king in all their flavors since you must maximize shooting over assaulting.

[Wolf89]

In my BC's I always include a WG with THammer and WTN for nasty IC's that want to assault the BC's after podding.

 

They also always a flamer.

 

 

I thought WGBL could only take the Heavy Weapon if they had termie armor.

 

And of course, for a pod army combi weapons are king in all their flavors since you must maximize shooting over assaulting.

 

Yea they need termie armor, and the GW site is currently down so if I remember correctly the BC's can't be lead by someone in termie armor, which would negate my possibility of using him in the squad. I was thinking he could just branch off, but if they're assaulted then it would cause problems with being able to overrun. So yes you're correct.

 

I see why you didn't give the BC's power fists now if you give them a WGPL with Thammer. That makes sense.

 

Maybe I'll try this in my list over the bikes, I'm starting to not like them again. :tu: I could always use another pod to maximize my first turn "shock"

[Grey Mage]

You cant lead bloodclaws with a model in termi armor. I have no idea why. However he can take heavy weapons even in power armor- he just chooses from the power armored list of heavy weapons. The quote in the faq simply states he has access to wolf gaurd heavy weapons.