Librarian Psychic Powers in 5th ed. 'dex?

[Wizz]

Greetings. :)

 

I have always loved using Librarians as leaders, instead of wicked tooled-up CC-chaplains or stuff like that.

I just love the look on my opponents face when his Force Weapon wipes his precious commander. ;)

 

But! In the new 5th editon Marine Codex, I'm not so sure about what Psychic Powers to go for. Not to counter any specific army... just multipurpose.

Heres one of my armylists for example: 1500pts Tournament List

 

I've been using Null Zone and The Avenger so far.

The problem with Null Zone is that it's a complete waste sometimes, for instance against IG. ;)

 

I'm considering Quickening, since I 10 will make him dead killy. ^_^

And, it will also enable him to detach from Terminators to charge enemies even further away! :devil: ... even tho' he'd be all alone :(

(Upgraded to Epistolary, of course, so he still can make his Force Weapon attack)

 

 

So.. enough ranting.. Your thoughts on this? :o

[Shiodome]

i'm finding 'force dome' (or whatever it's called, haven't got my codex in front of me) usefull in every game. it requires the librarian to be with the squad you want it to effect, so you have to plan ahead to use it where you'll need it. but a 5+ invuln is good stuff, seeing as every squad in the game seems to have some powerfist varient, or 'anti marine' option.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Just my two cents on the revamped powers;

 

Just a reminder that you only have 2 slots for powers (thus making selection critical), but they come for free. Also, you need to bear in mind that you carry a force weapon which you might wanna use. So, I assume everyone is upgrading to Epistolary, because otherwise he's too underpowered.

 

Smite; Good basic shooting power. Only problem is range, but other than that it's a perfectly good choice.

 

Force Dome; A defensive power, this is designed to protect units who can't normally access an invulnerable save. Given the proliferation of cover saves in 5th edition, I see this as primarily being used in close-combat. Useful, but you need to attach your Librarian to the right kind of squad.

 

Machine Curse; Total crap. Leave anti-tank to your anti-tank units, don't waste your Librarian doing this.

 

Avenger; Essentially a Doom Siren by another name. My feeling is that you should leave anti-infantry to other units, and use your Librarian to destroy enemy characters. It's not bad for clearing out enemy infantry, but there are better options, Smite has longer reach and ignores FNP. Avenger does ignore cover though, so it's still good.

 

Quickening; Pretty brutal. It essentially gives your Librarian a Banshee Mask and Fleet for a turn. If you plan on entering combat, this is mandatory.

 

Null-Zone; Only use it against Daemons. Most other armies won't care.

 

Might of Ancients; The perfect compliment to Quickening. Combining these two powers turns your Librarian into essentially a Keeper of Secrets. If your opponent only has I5 or worse, you can choose to not activate Quickening and still use your force weapon in conjunction with this power. If you opponent is T3 or immune to Instant Death, just activate Quickening as well, cos your force weapon is pointless.

 

Gate of Infinity; Essentially a watered down version of Veil of Darkness. I wouldn't take it, your Librarian should be either buffing a unit or going beserk in close-combat.

 

Vortex of Doom; The ultimate 'you die' button to press, but very dangerous if you mess up the psychic test. I recommend you steer clear of this power.

 

 

Builds;

 

There are generally speaking two different builds to go with;

 

Terminator Epistolary, force weapon, storm shield, Quickening, Might of the Ancients

(190 points)

 

Biker Epistolary, bolt pistol, force weapon, Null Zone, Smite

(185 points)

[Wizz]

Exactly what I was looking for Darius!

The Avenger: The ignore for cover-saves is nice, since so many people will be hugging cover in 5th ed. :angry:

But whenever I took it, I was afraid to use it, since my opponent could simply remove the 'wrong' models from his squad, and then I wouldn't be able to charge anymore. (If you're at the edge of charge range)

 

Might Of The Ancients: Good point about T3 and immunity to Instant Death... hadn't thought about that.

 

 

Shiodome: Yeah, its pretty usefull if your Libby is in power (or artificer) armour and running along with similarly armoured troops.

[Grindgodgrind]

I wouldn't really call Machine Curse 'total crap'. It has its uses. For instance, stopping somethign nasty from dropping railgun/battlecannonetc shells on something more vital to your battle plan.

[Bosco]

I find the Gate of Infinity(GOI) coupled with Force Dome on an epistolary attached to a full squad of Sternguard to be a very interesting combination. It allows them to become more survivable and potentially scare the crap outta your opponent with an unexpected rapid-fire salvo from one of the best firepower units in the game. Of course, a bad roll can cause you to lose a 25 point model or potentially land in an unfavorable location, but I feel the risk is worth it, and locator beacons make this a much safer prospect if the general decision is that GoI is in fact a deepstrike move. Alternatively, Null Zone can replace Gate of Infinity to make the sternguard that much more dangerous vs resilient targets, hellfire/dragonfire rounds + re-rolling successful inv saves = dead daemons/<insert non-vehicle unit here>.

 

For a solo, character-hunting librarian, I think that either the Quickening (to try and get that 'quick' kill) with a jump pack, or Might of the Ancients combined with a bike are solid builds. Personally, I prefer the bike for the toughness boost for survivability and added shooting to soften the target before assault, but the Quickening/jump pack combo does have a greater assault range that could be equally, if not more, valuable. As pointed out by Reclusiarch Darius, taking both powers on the same librarian compliment each other nicely if you won't need to use the force weapon that round.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I wouldn't really call Machine Curse 'total crap'. It has its uses. For instance, stopping somethign nasty from dropping railgun/battlecannonetc shells on something more vital to your battle plan.

 

Glancing hits can no longer kill, and most of the time you won't even do any noticeable damage. For a one-shot power, it's pretty meh. It also eats up a psychic 'slot' that could be used for something more killy, like 'Might' or 'Avenger'. You can get much better anti-tank options elsewhere, I wouldn't waste the 'slot' with it.

I find the Gate of Infinity(GOI) coupled with Force Dome on an epistolary attached to a full squad of Sternguard to be a very interesting combination. It allows them to become more survivable and potentially scare the crap outta your opponent with an unexpected rapid-fire salvo from one of the best firepower units in the game. Of course, a bad roll can cause you to lose a 25 point model or potentially land in an unfavorable location, but I feel the risk is worth it, and locator beacons make this a much safer prospect if the general decision is that GoI is in fact a deepstrike move.

 

Yeah, a bit risky, but I like it. I'm pretty sure Deepstrike = Deepstrike (I don't understand people who try to read non-existant semantics into rules), so you should be fine using the locator beacons. You might wanna use Vanguard with that tactic.

[Grindgodgrind]

I wouldn't really call Machine Curse 'total crap'. It has its uses. For instance, stopping somethign nasty from dropping railgun/battlecannonetc shells on something more vital to your battle plan.

 

Glancing hits can no longer kill, and most of the time you won't even do any noticeable damage. For a one-shot power, it's pretty meh. It also eats up a psychic 'slot' that could be used for something more killy, like 'Might' or 'Avenger'. You can get much better anti-tank options elsewhere, I wouldn't waste the 'slot' with it.

 

To be fair, I'd not be using it to try and kill tanks, but only to stop them firing. Surely it'd be the height of annoyance to stop someones tank shooting with the least likely mode for the job. And if you're playing Orks, you could even kill one of those wonderful open-topped vehicles.

[Gaz1858]

Terminator Epistolary, force weapon, storm shield, Quickening, Might of the Ancients

(190 points)

 

This is what ive chosen for my Librarian(epistolary) backed up by either 5 or 10 TH + SS Terminators

[Rorshak]

Machine Curse is highly useful against Monoliths. Just pass a test and said monolith can't shoot, marvellous! Combine with gate to keep away from annoyed warriors.

 

Vs Thousand Sons and Tzeentch in general, Null Zone is terrific. Made your impressive invulnerable save? Well make it again then.

 

Vs Feels No Pain units, Smite is nasty.

 

Quickening is only for taking on Slaanesh and Eldar, or getting the drop on other marines. Pointless against Tau, most Orks, IG etc.

 

Avenger with Null Zone effectively ignores all saves going. See how Kantors objective holding Sternguard handle that one!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Machine Curse is highly useful against Monoliths. Just pass a test and said monolith can't shoot, marvellous! Combine with gate to keep away from annoyed warriors.

 

Not really. If we model what you'll roll;

 

1 or 2; Doesn't do anything

 

3; Shaken (losing shooting is nasty, but can still move and teleport stuff)

 

4. Stunned (can't move or shoot, but can still teleport units around)

 

5. Weapon destroyed (you have to chew through 4 x flux arc projectors before this can blow up the Monolith, and it can still move, shoot and teleport)

 

6. Immobilised (stuck where it is, but can still shoot and teleport)

 

 

There is also the oppertunity cost of using an expensive close-combat HQ to tackle armour. If he's shooting the Monolith, he's not shooting up other Necron units (for example, the Necron Lord gets beat by Smite, and Necron Warriors will hate Avenger), and additionally he can't assault anything. Given how critical it is for the Librarian to get the charge bonus, and his god-like abilities in combat, it's a bit of a waste. There are much better powers on offer which you should be taking.

 

Quickening is only for taking on Slaanesh and Eldar, or getting the drop on other marines. Pointless against Tau, most Orks, IG etc.

 

Dude, I have a huge list of what goes ahead of the I4 Librarian. Observe;

 

Chaos; All their HQ's except Fabius Bile, Slannesh marked units, Beserkers when charging

 

Daemons; Skarbrand, all Greater Daemons except GUO, Skull-taker, The Masque, Herald of Tzeentch on Chariot (he gains Furious Charge), Herald of Khorne, Herald of Slannesh, Fiends, Bloodcrushers (on the charge), Bloodletters (on the charge), Daemonettes, Flesh Hounds (on the charge), Seekers, all Daemon Princes

 

Daemonhunters/Witch-hunters; Grandmaster, Inquisitor/Lord with Familiar, Death-Cult and all the Temple Assassins, any Sororitas unit using the 'Passion' Faith Act

 

Variant Marines (BA, DA, BT, SW); All Dark Angel HQ's, all Blood Angel HQ's and any Blood Angel unit on the charge (when buffed with Furious Charge), all Black Templar HQ's and any unit that can buy Furious Charge (Terminator and regular Command squads, Terminators, Veteran squads), all Space Wolf HQ's and the Iron Priest

 

Dark Eldar; Everyone except Haemonculus, Grotesques and Talos

 

Eldar; All their HQ's, Warlocks using Enhance (this bonus also lets their attached unit go to at least I5 as well), Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees (you need Quickening to go same time), Fire Dragons, Harlequins, Dire Avengers, Shining Spears, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Dark Reapers

 

Orks; (On the charge for all of these) Ghaz, Warboss, Zogwort (with his D6 extra attacks which wound on a 2+, and if he rolls a 1-3 for his powers while in combat, he ignores armour saves as well).

 

Tyranids; All Tyranid HQ's, Warriors with Adrenal Glands, Lictors, Genestealers, Terma/Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands, Ravenor

 

 

Bottom line is, it sucks to have Initative 4, making Quickening pretty near-mandatory if you plan to enter combat (which, given his force weapon or the option of using 'Might', is a very attractive option). If you activate Quickening, the only other units that can touch you are Banshees, an Autarch with Banshee Mask or the Keeper of Secrets. Everyone else is too slow.

Avenger with Null Zone effectively ignores all saves going. See how Kantors objective holding Sternguard handle that one!

 

It's not AP2, so units with FNP or 2+ save will be fine. Otherwise, yeah, it's pretty much point and click. Null-zone benefits everyone though, provided the Daemons etc they are shooting are within 24" of the Libby.

[Nyyman]

I know A LOT of people will probaply just shoot meh in da head for this but I will still say my opinion.

 

I got the new Codex yesterday, so i haven't been able to test it.

 

I would take Gate of Infinity(GOI) and Smite. Then i would attach the Librarian (Epistolary of course) to some unit with lots of assault weapons. First thought of Terminators but then I realised that they already have Deep Strike...But what the heck. I'm sure you will comeup with something, Sternguard or something. Deploy the unit in your deployment zone. When the game starts, use GOI to deep strike near some good armoured unit (Terminators, Space Marines, Meganobz or other with 4+ armour save or better). Then use Smite to them (Assault 4, Strenght 4 with AP 2. See my point?), assuming that you deep strike close enough (only 12" range) and shoot with other assault weapons of squad (Command Squad with meltaguns or bolt pistols or Terminators with storm bolters). Assuming you killed enough of them (in case they are hard-hitting unit like Terminators or Meganobz), assault them, as you can do it cause you shooted with assault weapons. Then take them out (Vanguard Veterans with armour-ignoring weapons are good).

 

Feel free to comment it. I'm sure lot of people will make up something against it.

[King Tiger]

well with my assault terminators with hammers and shields I'm gonna be using a terminator Libby with shield, using Null zone and Might of the ancients, then go around hunting tough units like terminators wounding everything on 2+ and making them re-roll saved men

 

in a drop pod with sternguard I would again use Null zone, and Force dome, very good for making necron players who waste points on C-tan suddenly regret gloating that it was gonna kill everything in your army

 

another is a command squad (stolen from your CPT) armed with 4 meltaguns and a libby with gate of infinity, DS behind a nasty vehicle, or on the side, and meltagun it to hell, also Plasma guns work well against infantry

 

on a bike with Avenger is nice in a biker unit with Flamers, ride close to an enemy in cover and burn them out

[TheMotivesOFMan]

I plan on running mine with GoI and Force dome normally (switching to Null Zone vs. Deamons) with a 10 man squad of sternguard. Comboing them with a squad of scout bikers with beacon, which will turbo boost scout move, pop sternguard next to them and with the bikers lay waste to everything around them. Planning to support them with Rhino's/Razorbacks/Bikers, and possibly a drop podded dread or two. Plus the scout bikes can keep moving, and thus allowing my sternguard to port around the battlefield w/no scatter. :P

[Kapitan Montag]

Machine Curse is highly useful against Monoliths. Just pass a test and said monolith can't shoot, marvellous! Combine with gate to keep away from annoyed warriors.

 

Not really. If we model what you'll roll;

 

1 or 2; Doesn't do anything

 

3; Shaken (losing shooting is nasty, but can still move and teleport stuff)

 

4. Stunned (can't move or shoot, but can still teleport units around)

 

5. Weapon destroyed (you have to chew through 4 x flux arc projectors before this can blow up the Monolith, and it can still move, shoot and teleport)

 

6. Immobilised (stuck where it is, but can still shoot and teleport)

 

 

 

Why doesn't a 1 or 2 do anything? On the vehicle damage table a score of 1 or less is still shaken. ( or am I missing another monolith special rule? )

 

 

 

I would take Gate of Infinity(GOI) and Smite. Then i would attach the Librarian (Epistolary of course) to some unit with lots of assault weapons. First thought of Terminators but then I realised that they already have Deep Strike...But what the heck. I'm sure you will comeup with something, Sternguard or something. Deploy the unit in your deployment zone. When the game starts, use GOI to deep strike near some good armoured unit (Terminators, Space Marines, Meganobz or other with 4+ armour save or better). Then use Smite to them (Assault 4, Strenght 4 with AP 2. See my point?), assuming that you deep strike close enough (only 12" range) and shoot with other assault weapons of squad (Command Squad with meltaguns or bolt pistols or Terminators with storm bolters). Assuming you killed enough of them (in case they are hard-hitting unit like Terminators or Meganobz), assault them, as you can do it cause you shooted with assault weapons. Then take them out (Vanguard Veterans with armour-ignoring weapons are good).

 

Feel free to comment it. I'm sure lot of people will make up something against it.

 

I don't think assaulting is an option as the GOI counts as deep strike. Doesn't stop it being a good combo otherwise though.

[King Tiger]

Why doesn't a 1 or 2 do anything? On the vehicle damage table a score of 1 or less is still shaken. ( or am I missing another monolith special rule? )

machine curse can only glance, so thats an instant minus 2 to any result you roll, so a 1 or 2 does nothing because they become -1 and 0, and if I remember rightly I think a monolith is immune to shaken or stunned results, I can't be exactly sure as I don't have the cheesedex here with me, so that would make 3 and 4's useless too if I am correct

[Kapitan Montag]

Why doesn't a 1 or 2 do anything? On the vehicle damage table a score of 1 or less is still shaken. ( or am I missing another monolith special rule? )

machine curse can only glance, so thats an instant minus 2 to any result you roll, so a 1 or 2 does nothing because they become -1 and 0, and if I remember rightly I think a monolith is immune to shaken or stunned results, I can't be exactly sure as I don't have the cheesedex here with me, so that would make 3 and 4's useless too if I am correct

 

Yes Machine curse only glances, but on the vehicle damage table (p61 BBB) a score of 1 OR LESS is Crew shaken. If monoliths do ignore shaken and stunned, then fair enough. (actually why is that fair? - I hate monoliths and necrons in general hurr!)

[Nyyman]

Ahh my tactic totally forgot the fact that you can't assault when you deep strike. Good one Kapitan Morgan

[Steve Irwin]

I recommend taking a Chaos Lord with the Mark of Tzeench, and giving him Warp Time, and Wind of Chaos. How’s that for a set up?? :D

Steve

[srpelicano]

I have my librarian in with a unit of assault marines and found that the Force Dome was pretty useful. I am tinkering with the idea of using might of the ancients and the avenger to bolster his combat potential and then to also drop the unit and down obliterate the enemy before going in and kicking them in the head. He has the Episcolary (sp?) to give him that extra gusto. So far he has worked pretty well.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

machine curse can only glance, so thats an instant minus 2 to any result you roll, so a 1 or 2 does nothing because they become -1 and 0, and if I remember rightly I think a monolith is immune to shaken or stunned results, I can't be exactly sure as I don't have the cheesedex here with me, so that would make 3 and 4's useless too if I am correct

 

Basically. As for the 'Lith, you can still stun/shake it like normal, it's special rule simply prevents anti-armour bonuses applying to it when you roll the AP dice (ie melta bonus, chainfist, tank hunters, Furious Charge don't work against it).

 

Yes Machine curse only glances, but on the vehicle damage table (p61 BBB) a score of 1 OR LESS is Crew shaken. If monoliths do ignore shaken and stunned, then fair enough. (actually why is that fair? - I hate monoliths and necrons in general hurr!)

 

That doesn't make sense. You have to roll a minimal score of 1 to do any damage whatsoever; you can't cause damage with a roll of less than 1. The whole point of the glancing modifier is to negate damage rolls, representing the inadequacy of the weapon to damage the target.

 

I recommend taking a Chaos Lord with the Mark of Tzeench, and giving him Warp Time, and Wind of Chaos. How’s that for a set up?? cool.gif

Steve

 

Where is your Daemon Prince?

[King Tiger]

Basically. As for the 'Lith, you can still stun/shake it like normal, it's special rule simply prevents anti-armour bonuses applying to it when you roll the AP dice (ie melta bonus, chainfist, tank hunters, Furious Charge don't work against it).

I was thinking more of that other rule it has, the one where if immobilized it doesn't crash and burn for skimming (kinda skimming) I though it had special effects on stuns and shakens as well, but nevermind, its still hard as hell to kill these days

[Cairnius]

I can't see that anyone else said this already, but pardon me if I missed it...

 

I think the best way to get salient and meaningful advice on Libby powers is to first state what your Libby is meant to do. My Libby runs in Termie armor with a Storm Shield with five Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields, all in a LRC.

 

So, I take Null Zone as my default power. Whatever I hit with those Terminators is not going to get back up. Chances are they get no save, if they get invuls they're re-rolling them against a tremendous number of PF attacks.

 

This also helps as I run two plasma-heavy Sternguard units who always run close to the Termies, so when the Sternguard hit something with 12 plasmagun and 2 melta shots when they pop out of their Rhino, with Null Zone up chances are whatever I shot at is going to die.

 

I'll eventually settle on a second power. I've been running Smite as a placeholder, and am debating Might of the Ancients. Not sure, though.

[Kapitan Montag]

Looking at the dex, I can't help wanting to field a warp-monster of a librarian.

Make him an epistolary and give him Terminator Armour and Gate of Infinty and Vortex of Doom!

He's relentess so he can teleport in and unleash S10 AP1 blast on th enemy.

 

I just love the idea of this psychic future warrior - being able to warp spacetime and then tear it up to destroy his foes.

Plus the tragic opportunity to fail a Ld10 pyschic test (it can happen!)

 

Probably not really competitve but I sometimes like 2ed style uber characters who can win/lose a game in a turn or two.

 

(My ork weirdboy has been doing this quite a bit - sometimes totally frazzling a combat squad of assault marines sometimes frazzling his own battlwagon (wrecked and killed 4boys :P )

[boreas]

That doesn't make sense. You have to roll a minimal score of 1 to do any damage whatsoever; you can't cause damage with a roll of less than 1. The whole point of the glancing modifier is to negate damage rolls, representing the inadequacy of the weapon to damage the target.

 

Sense or not, it's really 1 or less on the table... Hence rolls of 1, 2 and 3 on a glancing give the same result (crew shaken).

 

I'm really surprised that the vortex of doom is not more popular. I run a Librarian in TDA with a squad of termies in a LR. They can get a 14" move (12" + disembark), shoot 4 stormbolters and an St 10 AP1 template then charge! I use avenger as a second power to use instead if I can get close enough(thus avoiding scattering). That should leave any character pretty much stranded to get force-weaponed of pummeled by powerfists...

 

By the way, whats the take on Gate of Infinity and the Libby's transport? Does it move with the libby/unit? A teleporting LR is a bit much...

 

Phil