C:SM drop pods

[mughi3]

The rules don't specify whether a Land Raider or Rhino has crew either. In fact how many weapons they can fire is entirely dependant on how they move.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i112/mughi3/2005-06-06-177_idiot.gif

Joking aside GW has actually specified crew sizes for them. predators have 2-driver+gunner/commander

 

Land raiders used to have 2 but (as noted in the comic strip) they later changed it to 3. the vehicles have a BS4 because the tank is crewed by space marines who are lost when the vehicle is lost.

 

This is a very basic rules issue. any opponent you face could by RAW claim you cannot fire the gun on the pod and they would by correct. unless GW FAQs this little messed up.

 

I'm all for having fun playing my games, i just wish GW could write a rulebook worth rubbing two pages together without there being conflict, omissions, or glaring errors.

[Arschbombe]

As for whether you can shoot through it, what part of true LoS wasn't clear :lol:

 

That's exactly the point. We've got "true" LOS now. So if it's modeled with the doors closed, you can't trace LOS through it. With the doors down, you can. Do we assume all pods have doors down even if they are built with them closed?

 

My initial thought was to keep doors up when using the pod for a dread because of the complete interior. And then I started wondering what effect the doors have on game play when they are splayed out. They do cover a good bit of the board.

[Eddie Orlock]

(Which brings up an odd point with the Thunderfire as it specifies that the Techmarine doesn't get some of his special abilities unless the gun is destroyed but there are no stats for the gun itself, ergo it cannot be destroyed.

I'd have to double check it to be sure, but I'm fairly certain I recall that in the core rule book where it defines field artillery it gives a basic statline and rules for such weapons and that the thunderfire would qualify as one of these. Thus, it would be an AV 10 all around vehicle with hits randomly distributed between the tech and the gun and any hit that would roll on a chart automatically destroys it. I don't think these are like Eldar guardian weapon platforms.

[angronn]

Mughi3 is right - it might seem obvious that the Pod should be able to shoot, but according to RAW, no crewman = no weapon firing. The Master of the Ravenwing on jetbike already came a cropper on this one. Of course it seems like he ought to be able to fire both weapons, but he can't.

 

As for difficult terrain... I'm not sure...

 

The rules don't specify whether a Land Raider or Rhino has crew either. In fact how many weapons they can fire is entirely dependant on how they move. For all intents and purposes as far as the rules are concerned the vehicles are uncrewed! Does this mean they cannot move or shoot without transporting a squad. No.

 

There is also nothing in the rules saying you must have crew to operate weapons as crew are non-targetable.

 

I examined my rulebook and I stand corrected! I've obviously got confused with the bike rules. Indeed, no vehicles (Dreadnoughts included) are specifiefd as having crew, so one would assume the Pods could fire by RAW as "no crew" is more a flff objection.

 

The rules don't specify whether a Land Raider or Rhino has crew either. In fact how many weapons they can fire is entirely dependant on how they move.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i112/mughi3/2005-06-06-177_idiot.gif

Joking aside GW has actually specified crew sizes for them. razorbacks/rhinos have 2-driver+gunner

 

Land raiders used to have 2 but (as noted in the comic strip) they later changed it to 3. the vehicles have a BS4 because the tank is crewed by space marines who are lost when the vehicle is lost.

 

This is a very basic rules issue. any opponent you face could by RAW claim you cannot fire the gun on the pod and they would by correct. unless GW FAQs this little messed up.

 

I'm all for having fun playing my games, i just wish GW could write a rulebook worth rubbing two pages together without there being conflict, omissions, or glaring errors.

 

It doesn't specify about crew in the DA Codex.

[angronn]

This thread is in danger of sounding like the 'I can use enemy locator beacons' nonsense. It's a drop pod, anyone with half an ounce of sense knows that a drop pod doesn't have a crew! It has an automated landing system and automated defensive weapons. This isn't a difficult concept. While GW are sometimes unclear in their writing, I don't think it's fair to expect them to write for the anally retentive who need to be told that B comes after A, honest guv. They do assume a certain degree of common sense. This thread is typical of the sort of Tournament/Rules lawyers thinking that so worryingly confirms to the world that wargamers should be kept away from anything sharp :lol:

 

Whilst I dislike rules lawyering as much as the next man, I've always seen that as "twisting the rules to give you an advantage". "Pointing out an inconvenience/daft thing in the rules-as-written" is not rules lawyering. You surely must play the rules as written, unless house-ruling something. Otherwise, you can come to the battlefield to find someone saying "ah, but GW clearly didn't intend that, therefore all my skimmers can still only be hit on 6, even if they didn't move". The idea is that the rules mean you can play someone you've never talked to before, and be on the same page. Therefore they need to be reasonably water-tight and/or FAQ'd regularly.

[Eddie Orlock]

That's exactly the point. We've got "true" LOS now. So if it's modeled with the doors closed, you can't trace LOS through it. With the doors down, you can. Do we assume all pods have doors down even if they are built with them closed?

 

My initial thought was to keep doors up when using the pod for a dread because of the complete interior. And then I started wondering what effect the doors have on game play when they are splayed out. They do cover a good bit of the board.

Do you model Rhino doors as open so your guys can get in and out? I'm of the opinion that both configurations are valid assemblies of the kit with their own advantages and draw backs. I plan to magnatise the latches and hinge the doors so that I can flay them open against assault armies to impede their movements and leave some panels up against shootier armies to block LOS as required.

 

A question I have is on deploying from them. With the door flayed open the edge of the pod is ~6 inches from the profile of the base, would it be fair to deploy the squad around the tip of the end of one of those doors?

 

As for Crew, I'd guess that somewhere in what little bowels there are for machinery there are for these things there is an awkwardly posed servator hard wired to a targetting array maning that storm bolter.

[Brother_Dan'l]

This is a very basic rules issue. any opponent you face could by RAW claim you cannot fire the gun on the pod and they would by correct. unless GW FAQs this little messed up.

 

They could. But I can also say "Don't be such a prick." and that really should be the standard response to garbage like that. I for one am sick to death of people searching for, and pointing out with such unholy glee, crap like this. My god, they could have written "Flip switch to activate" and some donkey face would go on about "They never said how far to flip it" or "Did they mean to say flip the entire switch?".

 

I'm not saying that this is Mughi3's fault or how he normally views rules and plays the game. Just that I hit my breaking point at the same time as his response to this foolishness.

 

And so ends my early morning rant. Now where the hell is my coffee. :lol:

[mughi3]

It doesn't specify about crew in the DA Codex.

We have had the crew size as a known item for what 10 years now?

 

index astartes IV p61-63

predator tanks-crew- 2 space marines(commander and driver)

 

C:SM 4th ed(theone everybody was using up till 2 days ago :D ) p.39

-predator tank-

crew- 2 space marines

 

notice on page 35-

drop pod-

crew-none

[Brother Gothard]

This is a very basic rules issue. any opponent you face could by RAW claim you cannot fire the gun on the pod and they would by correct. unless GW FAQs this little messed up.

Oh so you can point to the page in the rulebook that states that vehicles can only fire if they're crewed or have Power of the Machine Spirit?

[angronn]

It doesn't specify about crew in the DA Codex.

We have had the crew size as a known item for what 10 years now?

 

index astartes IV p61-63

predator tanks-crew- 2 space marines(commander and driver)

 

C:SM 4th ed(theone everybody was using up till 2 days ago :D ) p.39

-predator tank-

crew- 2 space marines

 

notice on page 35-

drop pod-

crew-none

 

That's as may-be, but the 4th ed. C:DA doesn't mention crew. It doesn't matter if you know how many crew are in there from previous codices, in RAW terms you have to use the current Codex for that army.

 

Since C:DA is completely unrelated to C:SM (4th or 5th ed) as we're so painfully aware from the FAQ discussions with GW, you can't say "C:SM proves we have crew".

 

Therefore, given that the BRB doesn't say anything about crew, and neither does the DA codex (in particular, it doesn't mention anything about crew for the Pod, either) in the rules sections, you can take it as read that "crew" is now a fluff matter rather than a rules matter, and Pods can fire.

 

EDIT: I would assume the new 5th ed. C:SM doesn't mention crew either (as it seems to be a new trend) but I don't have it. Can anyone enlighten me, please?

[Gothical]

The rules don't say EXPLICITLY that you need a Crew to shoot - you mearly use the BS of the vehicle (that is mentioned of being derived from the crew).

 

The Drop Pod has no crew, but it still has a BS - all the rules require you to have to be able to shoot. No problem there. The BS is obviously derived from the computer systems in place of the crew.

 

Seriously - it is not written that a vehicle has to have a crew to fire. "A Land Raider has a BS of 4 because it's crewed by Space Marines" - so what? That doesn't mean that without a Crew value it cannot fire, as the vehicle's profile itself has the BS4 - and it's said vehicles' profile that you use in the shooting phase (otherwise I'd issue all my Tanks with Captains to give them BS4 in my Guard - it only says 'Imperial Guard' - doesn't mention it has to be a grunt...see where the 'crew' argument can lead?) - yes, this is tongue-in-cheek, if you're wondering.

 

My point is rules to not say that the crew has any bearing on shooting (apart from shakened/stunned results on the damage chart) - there is no requirement to have a crew to shoot. Anyway, I'll shut up now, I think/hope I've repeated myself enough.

[boreas]

Yes they do. this is a competitive game system

 

No it's not. "The rules are a framework to create an enjoyable game. Winning at any cost is less important than making sure both players - not just the victor - have a good time." BRB - The Most Important Rule. Although GW organizes tournaments, WH40k is not meant as a competitive game system. Heck, it started as a lark by guys who glued guns to their WFB elves and orks (not to mentions lizardmen!).

 

 

BRB: "When a vehicle fires, it uses its own BS characteristic and shoots like other units..." There you go, no mention of crews or other things. A vehicle shoots, not its crew. So a Drop-pod can shoot by itself.

 

A question I have is on deploying from them. With the door flayed open the edge of the pod is ~6 inches from the profile of the base, would it be fair to deploy the squad around the tip of the end of one of those doors?

 

There is a thread (shamefully started by me!) in the Rules section about that one!

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=147067

 

Phil

[Arschbombe]

Do you model Rhino doors as open so your guys can get in and out?

 

No, I don't, but then it doesn't matter as much there because you can't shoot through a rhino with the ramp down.

 

I'm of the opinion that both configurations are valid assemblies of the kit with their own advantages and draw backs. I plan to magnatise the latches and hinge the doors so that I can flay them open against assault armies to impede their movements and leave some panels up against shootier armies to block LOS as required.

 

See, I don't think you should be able to manipulate it like that. I think the pod should have one effect in rules regardless of how you actually build the kit. I'd probably come down on the side of argument that says it doesn't block LOS ever and the ramps have no impact on play.

 

A question I have is on deploying from them. With the door flayed open the edge of the pod is ~6 inches from the profile of the base, would it be fair to deploy the squad around the tip of the end of one of those doors?

 

I think that's already clear in the rules. Disembarking is 2 inches from an access point, not the end of the ramp.

[The_Chaplain]

might be off topic: but has the BS of the drop pod improved or is it still 2?

[rat of vengence]

The BS of a drop pod is now 4.

 

The BS in this thread is now 10. Come on fellas, this is getting bleedin' ridiculous! The pod has a weapon. The pod has a ballistic skill. Therefore, the pod can use its ballistic skill to fire its weapon.

 

Doe this HAVE to be so complicated?

 

RoV

[Bannus]

Whether it has a crew or not is insignificant when it comes to the RULES. According to the Rules, if it has a BS - it can shoot. If it has a WS it can fight in close combat. Period. Crew or no crew makes no difference as that has no impact on the game itself (except for Chronus, who is the only crew that can have another effect in game).

 

Drop pods may or may not have a Machine Spirit according to the fluff, but according to the RULES it doesn't need to have the Power of the Machine Spirit rule because:

 

1) It only has one weapon.

 

2) It doesn't move.

 

So simply giving it a BS4 is accurate as far as the RULES are concerned.

 

When it comes to deploying units from drop pods or moving around them - remember all distances are determined by the HULL and not any protrusions - including doors.

 

And since this has turned into a thread about rules - I'm going to move it to the OR.

[TheReclusiarch]

But the real questoin is: Can the Drop pod fire the turn in comes onto the table? :tu:

[shinigami]

I think people should take things easier. I won't even comment about the crew. The pod has a BS value, and fires with that BS value. And there is nothing stating the opposite because of the lack of grewmen.

 

As for the opened or closed hatches, there is nothing stating it must be opened, or closed, or half opened and half closed.

You can open or close it as you prefer at the moment of deploying., and this will change the line of sight according to the "true line of sight" rule.

[Lord Exedore]

atn:Bannus: This deployment is in the BRB I guess? Last edition had the 8" Assault from a Landraider, my BT loved it, all other armies...guess what :tu:

[Spacefrisian]

About the droppod just open the doors if you want to prevent the opponent from shooting at you take the Forgeworlds one besides its impossible to hide a unit of 10 marines behind a single droppod.

[Battle-Captain Garro]

This is a very basic rules issue. any opponent you face could by RAW claim you cannot fire the gun on the pod and they would by correct. unless GW FAQs this little messed up.

 

They could. But I can also say "Don't be such a prick." and that really should be the standard response to garbage like that. I for one am sick to death of people searching for, and pointing out with such unholy glee, crap like this.

I'm not saying that this is Mughi3's fault or how he normally views rules and plays the game. Just that I hit my breaking point at the same time as his response to this foolishness.

 

 

Amen.

 

I mainly play with friends and no one I know plays like that. No one has ever, in 16 years in this hobby, said to me "well a RAW reading would allow me to..." and then tried to perpetrate some heinous act of rule stupidity.

 

By the by I think I was correct when I said that the Drop Pod doors are meant to openable, they should NOT be glued shut or open, therefore, they should most certainly be open when deployed. If the doors are shut then the weapons can't fire, they don't have LoS!

[Eddie Orlock]

Do you model Rhino doors as open so your guys can get in and out?

No, I don't, but then it doesn't matter as much there because you can't shoot through a rhino with the ramp down.

I'm going to point out that Rhino hulls also have side doors, and that it could be conceiveable to model these as fully open such that a person can see through their Rhino from one side to the other. With True LOS why wouldn't that squads heavy weapon bearer be able to deploy on one side and snipe armour through the aligned holes against the otherside behind a barracade to restrict return fire. Ignoring that this would be unmitagated cheeze.

I'm of the opinion that both configurations are valid assemblies of the kit with their own advantages and draw backs. I plan to magnatise the latches and hinge the doors so that I can flay them open against assault armies to impede their movements and leave some panels up against shootier armies to block LOS as required.

See, I don't think you should be able to manipulate it like that. I think the pod should have one effect in rules regardless of how you actually build the kit. I'd probably come down on the side of argument that says it doesn't block LOS ever and the ramps have no impact on play.

My basis for manipulation comes from the majority of the rest of my GW tank kits and the normal ability to turn their turrets, aim the sponsons, and open and close the hatches.

 

On this basis I also think that the Drop Pod as it is is a very poorly implemented kit from a game mechanics perspective.

[Brother Landrain]

Anyone else notice...

 

From everythig I can see, Terminators cannot use drop pods?

 

It says in the Terminator rules that you can be teleported.

It says in the Drop pod rules they can hold 12 SM, a Dread or a TF cannon.

Drop pods are only listed as Dedicated transports in the codex.

Terminators can only use LR's as dedicated transports.

 

 

RAW, no Terminators in drop pods ?

[madscuzzy]

In the rulebook, it is stated that any vehicle that deepstrikes counts as moving at cruising speed. It also states that there are 3 types of vehicles: Fast, Walker and Any other. Only fast vehicles can fire at cruising speed, which by RAW means that drop pods may not fire the turn they arrive, as they do not have 'fast' in their rules, just open-topped.

 

RAI might be that they may fire the turn they come down, as the purpose of the gun is to cover the marines as they disembark... *shrugs*

 

Characters in terminator armour may be put in droppods, which count as 2 models per. Terminator SQUADS may not buy droppods.

[Mordekiem]

Mughi3 is right - it might seem obvious that the Pod should be able to shoot, but according to RAW, no crewman = no weapon firing. The Master of the Ravenwing on jetbike already came a cropper on this one. Of course it seems like he ought to be able to fire both weapons, but he can't.

 

As for difficult terrain... I'm not sure...

 

The rules don't specify whether a Land Raider or Rhino has crew either. In fact how many weapons they can fire is entirely dependant on how they move. For all intents and purposes as far as the rules are concerned the vehicles are uncrewed! Does this mean they cannot move or shoot without transporting a squad. No.

 

There is also nothing in the rules saying you must have crew to operate weapons as crew are non-targetable.

 

(Which brings up an odd point with the Thunderfire as it specifies that the Techmarine doesn't get some of his special abilities unless the gun is destroyed but there are no stats for the gun itself, ergo it cannot be destroyed.

:rolleyes:

Come on people, read the book! Kadaeux is correct.

 

None of the vehicles in the new codex have crew. Crew do not exist in the 5th edition rules.

 

I refer you to pg 58 of the BRB. Read the first paragraph. "When a vehicles fires it normally uses its [the vehicles] own BS characteristic..."

So the vehicle has a BS, not the crew. Crew are inconsequential.

 

And unless the drop pod has a special rule (I don't see one) then it counts as having moved at cruising speed per pg 95 of the BRB. This means it is not allowed to fire the turn it lands.