Alpharius Betrays and Kills Horus

[Candleshoes]

“It became clear to us that the oldest and youngest sons were the most significant of all. Horus for what he will do, and you for what you will undo.”

 

Provocative enough title for you? Before another sentence can be typed out, I must put the obligatory *** SPOLIER*** Alert at the top for those who haven’t finished reading the Heresy books, mainly Legion. Turn away now if you haven’t.

 

Otherwise, let us get to the meat. It is my take on the occurrence and events, so I am ready to hear comments, and more importantly to get slammed. THIS IS A LONG POST - if it’s not your cup of tea, don’t read 3 sentences and belittle it without just cause… read it all then you can belittle it.

 

Legion lied to you all.

Legion hid what it truly was, what it truly meant to tell you right in front of your hooded eyes, and yet all of you accepted what you read, accepted the lie you were meant to read I might add. The truth was just that, simple, plain, and hidden so perfectly in what you read, when you finish reading this, you’ll scratch your head and think “…. hmm… this makes sense….”.

 

Confused yet? Let me explain simply now. Though, I do warn, wait till you read it all before you start pulling out your chainswords.

 

It is often looked at that within the novel Legion, there are only 2 truth holders, that is to say, 2 bodies in which the audience can look to for unquestioned honesty without fault. 2 bodies that in a book of Lies and Deceit, are the only way for us to gauge what is real and what is not. These bodies are Dinas Chayne, and the Cabal itself. Chayne is ruled by unchangeable values where to lie is as alien as being able to sprout wings. To him, lies are a waste of time and have no value whatsoever for good or for ill. He is essentially un-corruptable. The Cabal, the actual council (not Grammaticus) is truthful in the sense that lying to humans, is a step towards giving them the benefit of equality on a galactic level… and since the Cabal despises the simplicity of man, they must be dealt with in a brutal, honest fashion. Lies are meant to deceive equals, and they certainly wouldn’t even speak to men unless it was to say something of worth. Plus, Abnett himself has on several occasions made it known to readers that these 2 character groups were the bearers of truth in his novel, it really isn’t rocket science for us to put 2 and 2 together.

 

Now, take the information overload that is Legion into your head, and see it from the eyes of those 2 sources alone.

 

You’ll find this: Dinas Chayne openly states that the Alpha Legion lie with every breath they speak to the human compliance force (and implies anyone outside the legion itself) and he is the only one to independently identify and discover Grammaticus, something nobody could do.

 

The Cabal give us the most important information. Understand that if you accept that the cabal is a truth holder, YOU MUST believe everything they say, not just the bits and pieces that make sense to you. You don’t get to pick and choose.

 

They give us the idea of an impending civil war that will allow chaos to enter real space and devour humanity. They also tell us that they have tried “recruiting” or talking to other legions over centuries (but due to flaws in the other legions, none could be successful in the undertaking) before Legion even takes place. Understand that a detail like this means that their outcome is truthful, but the players and the path are changeable. They tell you this, which means, when they offer the 2 outcomes of the Horus Heresy, and ask the Alpha Legion to choose their place, there is choice involved. The choice to make the path of the events your own, but end up in the one of the outcomes, it doesn’t have to be cut and dried.

 

The choice was:

 

1) Horus wins, in his self loathing he immolates man and extinguishes it as a vessel for chaos. The galaxy is allowed to live due to humanity’s sacrifice.

 

2) The Emperor wins, is placed within the golden throne and bring Horus down with him, stagnation occurs and the worlds are torn by war for thousands of years, allowing chaos to slowly triumph

 

The acuity followed this, and the future played out for them, they lived a lifetime in an instant.

 

You ALL think Alpharius/Omegon chose option 1, SOULY based on the principal that the Alpha Legion fought on Horus’ side. You are wrong.

 

The Primarchs never answered out loud.

 

The Primarchs chose the 2nd option. They chose against the prolonged life of the Xenos of the galaxy and chose the continual struggle against evil, even in the face of certain defeat. You Heard Me. The Alpha Legion chose the 2nd option. This is why.

 

What future does warhammer pan out to? Where did the Alpha Legion’s loyalty really lie? What makes up their very being? Control, loyalty to their own, intelligence, and above all, cunning.

 

Legion takes place 2 years before the Heresy, when The Emperor Himself still led the crusade. They are given this choice just after the triumph at Ullanor. The Alpha legion prepare to set up the biggest Con that the galaxy has ever known, the Death of Horus. It is something that only they have the ability, patience, inner loyalty, and scope to achieve.

 

“It became clear to us that the oldest and youngest sons were the most significant of all. Horus for what he will do, and you for what you will undo.”

 

When the Cabal mentions this, it isn’t to be taken lightly. It is here that the Primarchs decide to Kill Horus. Or rather, to bring about the death of Horus. They knew that fighting on the side of the emperor, among his battle lines in pitched conflict with the Traitors would yield only death. If they fought for Horus, against their own brothers, only then could they secure the loyalty of the Warmaster, to be put in a position to do him the most harm, to take advantage in the hour of need when all hope was lost, and at the most opportune time.

 

They fought for the emperor, they would provide the emperor with the chance to lay Horus low and to end the conflict once and for all, even if it meant putting on a new face and sacrificing much to yield the greatest result. Such challenges and controlled deceit could only be handled by one legion.

 

To fight for the emperor, they fought for Horus, they turned on their brothers, and they bided their time. They waited, they planned, and they preformed well.

 

If any of you cannon guys out there know, to read all the editions rule books, army books, and fluff articles… is a lot to handle… and surprisingly enough, the articles tend to differ on the specifics, especially when seen from different accounts, both loyalist and traitor. Here is where you become a historian in a way, and decide for yourself the best course of interpretation on controversial material. To say that everything that was written about the Siege of Terra is presented in the same voice, demeanour, and outlook is foolish. It is a myth, there to be interpreted by us. This is my interpretation on over 2 decades worth of material.

 

Their moment came during the worst point of the Siege of Terra. With broken walls, and enclosing Traitors, the siege was in its last hour. We know that Horus’ ship lowered its shields. This is a fact, but as to why it was lowered is up to incredible debate. Some say he did it out of an emotional purpose, as a last chance, as a mock, you may look at it in any way, for this is one of the pivotal moments in the Heresy that is openly up to us to wonder about. To me, Horus doesn’t seem to show any remorse, regret or emotion until the moment he is about to strike down the Emperor. This is the first time, and because of that, it wasn’t him who lowered his shields… it was the Alpha Legion. They are responsible for betraying Horus, lowering his shield, and giving Man, the Imperium, and the Emperor the only way to Victory. They gave up Horus.

 

The only ones who could get close enough to the Warmaster, through personal means, or by agents, by operatives working the Con since before the Heresy even started. They planned it all. They had will, the means, the motive and the TIME to do something that you may say would be impossible. They waited YEARS for that moment, and they would have done nothing to screw it up.

 

They chose Option 2, they chose the Emperor, they chose to fight for the Utopian ideal still, and did it knowing that it would one day die out, but it was them that were in control of how it was to come about, and they would go down fighting. “The Alpha Legion is perfectly placed to control and direct it.”

 

And so it was, they chose loyalty by sacrifice, and gave humanity new life, even for a short while.

 

As for their own loyalties after the death of Horus and their complete inability to come back to the Imperium as protectors (Not by want to regain their old lives, but to uphold their great deed. “The greatest trick the Devil ever played was to make man believe he didn’t exist.”) no one will ever know what their true intentions are now.

 

Should this be true, then it is in fact the greatest story never told in all of the Heresy.

 

Please Discuss.

[BrotherAtrox]

This is a fine post and well thought out but you're seriously going to need more evidence to convince some of the hardliners. I personally think its absolutely believable since the Alpha Legion (as stated) are probably the best candidates for such an operation. Horus lowering the shields himself is still a hard idea to wrap one's brain around and this would certainly explain it. Can anyone elaborate on the whereabouts of the Alpha Legion up to and during the Siege of Terra?

[Sons of Horus]

hehe got me thinking ;) but i don't think so :)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

HERESY! Clearly this an Alpha Legion-sponsored post designed to spread disinformation. ;)

 

As far as lowering the shields go, that seems like a 'best of a bad bunch' solution to me. Horus is running out of time with three fresh loyalist legions bearing down on him, he can't get to the Emperor to kill him, so by lowering the shields he makes the Emperor come to him. Unfortunately it doesn't quite work out how he expected. Does nobody else believe that Horus had a good reason to lower the shields? It seems dumb with hindsight, but I have never read anywhere that Horus had the gift of foresight, only the Emperor and a few other Primarchs (Night Haunter, Magnus, Sangunius too I think).

 

As a side note Legion does change the perspective on the Alpha Legion. They seem less like deilberate Chaos-worshippers and more like Magnus, who turns to Chaos because he has to.

[Lay]

Their moment came during the worst point of the Siege of Terra. With broken walls, and enclosing Traitors, the siege was in its last hour. We know that Horus’ ship lowered its shields. This is a fact, but as to why it was lowered is up to incredible debate. Some say he did it out of an emotional purpose, as a last chance, as a mock, you may look at it in any way, for this is one of the pivotal moments in the Heresy that is openly up to us to wonder about.

"History records that on the 55th day of the battle, overwhelming Imperial reinforcements approached. In a bid to slay the Emperor before it was too late, Horus lowered the shields around his battle barge, daring his creator to teleport on board." - Index Astartes: Black Legion

 

Can anyone elaborate on the whereabouts of the Alpha Legion up to and during the Siege of Terra?

By the time Horus besieged Terra, the Alphas had become increasingly separated from the Heresy. They started to set up new objectives and waged war on everyone they came across.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

I like it. Like many AL theories a lot of it seems circumstantial but it fits fine within the 40k universe.

[JetfireUK]

A very nice thread. The more I think of Legion, the more I am of the opinion that the Alpha Legion turned from the Emperor to serve a greater purpose - perhaps the one that's been suggested at the beginning of this thread. I agree with the view that the Alpha Legion were alike the Thousand Sons and turned to Chaos as they were forced to.

 

One question that comes to mind is whether there are any elements of the Alpha Legion that still uphold the Emperor or have they all now embraced Chaos?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

JetfireUK Posted Today, 08:38 PM

One question that comes to mind is whether there are any elements of the Alpha Legion that still uphold the Emperor or have they all now embraced Chaos?

 

*Spoiler*

 

Wouldn't surprise me if the Alpha Legion deliberately split. Some samurai clans in the Japanese civil wars did that and had each bit take a different side of the conflict so no matter who won, the clan would survive. With the Alpha Legion having two Primarchs, they have the freedom to do that, with one side turning to chaos, the other staying loyal but having to remain hidden. If thats true and you really want a conspiracy theory, how about this - Alpharius deliberately got himself 'killed' (Faked or real) so Omegon would have some real cover for operating in the Imperium. This would also solve the idea of whether/how the Alpha Legion recruit from inside the Imperium.

 

Hell, if thats gotta make sense, I don't want to BE sober! :lol:

[Candleshoes]

Excellent points so far all, both for and against.

At Lay, remember that that is only one explanation givin by one source. There are dozens of different recounts of the same event over 20 years worth of rulebooks and codexes, all of which take the specifics on unique paths. Who's history was it? Does it make the statement biased? What makes theirs more accurate then others? Does the author have the authority to speak on what actually happened on board the Traitors side, as well as the Imperial Side? Is it a one sentance generalization? Like any document, or literary analysis, it is all to be taken with a grain of salt (and to remember that no side can fully scope the entirety of events.) The point was that GW made the event something for us to decide and debate on, as well as to build on in our own circles.

[Lord_Urbonov]

It is often looked at that within the novel Legion, there are only 2 truth holders, that is to say, 2 bodies in which the audience can look to for unquestioned honesty without fault. 2 bodies that in a book of Lies and Deceit, are the only way for us to gauge what is real and what is not. These bodies are Dinas Chayne, and the Cabal itself. Chayne is ruled by unchangeable values where to lie is as alien as being able to sprout wings. To him, lies are a waste of time and have no value whatsoever for good or for ill. He is essentially un-corruptable. The Cabal, the actual council (not Grammaticus) is truthful in the sense that lying to humans, is a step towards giving them the benefit of equality on a galactic level… and since the Cabal despises the simplicity of man, they must be dealt with in a brutal, honest fashion. Lies are meant to deceive equals, and they certainly wouldn’t even speak to men unless it was to say something of worth. Plus, Abnett himself has on several occasions made it known to readers that these 2 character groups were the bearers of truth in his novel, it really isn’t rocket science for us to put 2 and 2 together.

 

First, I would like to remind you, as you yourself have pointed out, The Cabal are aliens. Mr. Abnett has done a very good job in the past showing us, that aliens 9even sometimes post huamns like marines and their chaos counterparts) think differently then we humans do. Eldar, for instance, are not just effeminate humans with pointy ears and a fetish for tight armour. Their concepts of truth and lies may not exactly be the same as ours. With all due respect, I think you are making some assumptions to their thinking here.

 

Now, take the information overload that is Legion into your head, and see it from the eyes of those 2 sources alone.

 

The Cabal give us the most important information. Understand that if you accept that the cabal is a truth holder, YOU MUST believe everything they say, not just the bits and pieces that make sense to you. You don’t get to pick and choose.

 

Why not? The easiest and best way to lie is to mix in truths. While some of what they said could be true, it doesn't mean everything they say is on the straight and narrow.

 

...they offer the 2 outcomes of the Horus Heresy, and ask the Alpha Legion to choose their place, there is choice involved. The choice to make the path of the events your own, but end up in the one of the outcomes, it doesn’t have to be cut and dried.

 

The choice was:

 

1) Horus wins, in his self loathing he immolates man and extinguishes it as a vessel for chaos. The galaxy is allowed to live due to humanity’s sacrifice.

 

2) The Emperor wins, is placed within the golden throne and bring Horus down with him, stagnation occurs and the worlds are torn by war for thousands of years, allowing chaos to slowly triumph

 

The acuity followed this, and the future played out for them, they lived a lifetime in an instant.

 

You ALL think Alpharius/Omegon chose option 1, SOULY based on the principal that the Alpha Legion fought on Horus’ side. You are wrong.

 

The Primarchs never answered out loud.

 

The Primarchs chose the 2nd option. They chose against the prolonged life of the Xenos of the galaxy and chose the continual struggle against evil, even in the face of certain defeat. You Heard Me. The Alpha Legion chose the 2nd option...

 

..If any of you cannon guys out there know, to read all the editions rule books, army books, and fluff articles… is a lot to handle… and surprisingly enough, the articles tend to differ on the specifics, especially when seen from different accounts, both loyalist and traitor. Here is where you become a historian in a way, and decide for yourself the best course of interpretation on controversial material. To say that everything that was written about the Siege of Terra is presented in the same voice, demeanour, and outlook is foolish. It is a myth, there to be interpreted by us. This is my interpretation on over 2 decades worth of material.

 

Their moment came during the worst point of the Siege of Terra. With broken walls, and enclosing Traitors, the siege was in its last hour. We know that Horus’ ship lowered its shields. This is a fact, but as to why it was lowered is up to incredible debate. Some say he did it out of an emotional purpose, as a last chance, as a mock, you may look at it in any way, for this is one of the pivotal moments in the Heresy that is openly up to us to wonder about. To me, Horus doesn’t seem to show any remorse, regret or emotion until the moment he is about to strike down the Emperor. This is the first time, and because of that, it wasn’t him who lowered his shields… it was the Alpha Legion. They are responsible for betraying Horus, lowering his shield, and giving Man, the Imperium, and the Emperor the only way to Victory. They gave up Horus.

 

This is where i think your theory goes off the rails. Again, I think you are making a few assumptions and drawing erroneous conclusions from them. While you make a good judgment on the Alpha legion's character, I think you are mistaken in the reasoning behind their choice. It is mentioned several times in the novel that they do not believe the Utopian vision of the Imperium can triumph, they believe that war will continue forever. If they did indeed choose to fight against chaos (as yo suggest they did, by becoming double agents), according to the vision they had been shown, while they would have won, they know it would only end in eventual defeat as chaos would slowly devour the galaxy. Hardly a choice for a legion apparently renowned for looking at the big picture.

 

You may feel your interpretation of their choice validated by the possibility of them being the ones who lowered the shields on Horus's ship.

I find this difficult to believe for several reasons.

 

1. It is very important to consider Horus and his state of mind at teh battle of Terra. Horus was a very pridefil leader, it made him a good one, but was also possibly a flaw. The attack on Terra was his best chance to topple the Emperor. The thought of defeat was inconceivable for him, because it would mean that, even with all the advantages he was still unable to defeat his father. He would never has considered retreating and attacking, because that would be admitting that he had lost even when everything has gone exactly as he had planned. Thus, when the whispers of the Dark angels and Space wolves approaching forces (and I'm mentally recalling what it said in several re-tellings of the story) "he knew his gamble had failed. Even at this point, he still believed he was stronger, that he could win. If the Emperor died, it wouldn't matter if the DA or Space wolves arrived, he would have won. In 90% of the tellings of the story I've heard, that's why he lowered his shields, a last shot at the Emperor before he was proven the lesser by defeat. It was never about regret, as i doubt there was any left in Horus at all.

 

2. Logistically, as another poster pointed out, the majority (if not all) of historical accounts place the Alpha legion no where near Holy Terra (much like the ultramrines, Word Bearers, and the survivors of the drop site massacres.)

 

3.There is no mention anywhere of someone bringing down Horus shield's against his will, it has always been reported as intentional. GW's lore can at times be convoluted, but for a major plot point like to be true without any hints what so ever seems like a bit of a stretch.

 

Finally I would like to speculate a bit on the vision the Cabal showed, because I do agree something is a bit amiss.

 

If I am correct, and the alpha legion Did choose to fight for Horus to kill chaos in the long run, there is a problem right there. They did fight for Horus, and yet Horus still lost. That was not one of the outcomes shown by the cabal.

This means either of two things.

They were wrong, or they lied (damn xenos!).

Personally, the only visions I put any stock in are those that come from Eldred. The space elf nicked Abbadon, so he's got my respect.

 

 

Thought for the Day: All wars are Crimes.

[BrotherAtrox]

You also might want to consider the Acuity. In a book where nothing is as it seems, something so blatantly called the "acuity" would almost lead you to believe that its just a fabricated lie to trick the Alpha Legion and turn them to the Cabal's purpose. Perhaps their purpose was to take down Horus's shields? But if we're to take nothing at face value then I don't understand why we treat the Acuity as ultimate truth.

[Candleshoes]

First, I would like to remind you, as you yourself have pointed out, The Cabal are aliens. Mr. Abnett has done a very good job in the past showing us, that aliens 9even sometimes post huamns like marines and their chaos counterparts) think differently then we humans do. Eldar, for instance, are not just effeminate humans with pointy ears and a fetish for tight armour. Their concepts of truth and lies may not exactly be the same as ours. With all due respect, I think you are making some assumptions to their thinking here.

Why not? The easiest and best way to lie is to mix in truths. While some of what they said could be true, it doesn't mean everything they say is on the straight and narrow.

I think you misunderstood Urbonov. Abnett has told readers that in his book, the Cabal and Chayne speak with truthful voices. I can only assume that you must respect the author in what he wrote. As to what we think their intentions are or were, is essentially irrelevant. All that matters is that the author himself told you that what these two characters bring up are true. Lying and wiggle room as you put it are laced throughout the book among every other character, except the 2 the author has specifically told us are truthful. This point is really beyond what us, the readers think, as it has already been directly answered by Mr. Abnett.

 

This is where i think your theory goes off the rails. Again, I think you are making a few assumptions and drawing erroneous conclusions from them. While you make a good judgment on the Alpha legion's character, I think you are mistaken in the reasoning behind their choice. It is mentioned several times in the novel that they do not believe the Utopian vision of the Imperium can triumph, they believe that war will continue forever. If they did indeed choose to fight against chaos (as yo suggest they did, by becoming double agents), according to the vision they had been shown, while they would have won, they know it would only end in eventual defeat as chaos would slowly devour the galaxy. Hardly a choice for a legion apparently renowned for looking at the big picture.

As for your point about Utopian ideals, yes, the Alpha Legion never believed in the ability to achieve the end goal they new was impossible… but that doesn’t mean they still fought and struggled against it. It is all they could do, and it is what they were made to do. Pech and Thias tell you this. The choice I have surmised also follows this mindset, as they make their decision to uphold the Emperor’s work by continuing the un winnable fight against chaos. Their choice alone gives them control, and they never had anything against fighting for what the Emperor stood for, even if they thought it was un-achievable. They knew the bigger picture, and their choice reflected it, even if you don’t seem to agree with their sense of victory, as it was an internal victory as well as a death sentence.

 

You may feel your interpretation of their choice validated by the possibility of them being the ones who lowered the shields on Horus's ship.

I find this difficult to believe for several reasons.

 

1. It is very important to consider Horus and his state of mind at teh battle of Terra. Horus was a very pridefil leader, it made him a good one, but was also possibly a flaw. The attack on Terra was his best chance to topple the Emperor. The thought of defeat was inconceivable for him, because it would mean that, even with all the advantages he was still unable to defeat his father. He would never has considered retreating and attacking, because that would be admitting that he had lost even when everything has gone exactly as he had planned. Thus, when the whispers of the Dark angels and Space wolves approaching forces (and I'm mentally recalling what it said in several re-tellings of the story) "he knew his gamble had failed. Even at this point, he still believed he was stronger, that he could win. If the Emperor died, it wouldn't matter if the DA or Space wolves arrived, he would have won. In 90% of the tellings of the story I've heard, that's why he lowered his shields, a last shot at the Emperor before he was proven the lesser by defeat. It was never about regret, as i doubt there was any left in Horus at all.

 

2. Logistically, as another poster pointed out, the majority (if not all) of historical accounts place the Alpha legion no where near Holy Terra (much like the ultramrines, Word Bearers, and the survivors of the drop site massacres.)

 

3.There is no mention anywhere of someone bringing down Horus shield's against his will, it has always been reported as intentional. GW's lore can at times be convoluted, but for a major plot point like to be true without any hints what so ever seems like a bit of a stretch.

As for your inability to grasp how and why I claim it was by the Alpha Legion’s doing that Horus’ ships had their shields lowered, I will post up some counter points against your 3.

 

1) Since your memory seems a bit faded on the subject of the Terran siege, pull out your Own Current Chaos Codex. You will be interested to read these, which may infact make you take back your statement from memory. Pages 15-16

 

“It was now at the very moment of his triumph that Horus made his one and only mistake. No one can say for sure why he did it, but Horus lowered the defence shields on his barge as this last cataclysmic battle begun. It was surmised that without the shields he was able to better witness the forthcoming destruction of the Emperor and His Imperium.”

 

In the pages you will see that Horus was more than capable of killing the Emperor and Final defenders without ever stepping foot on earth. He knew his gamble had succeeded not failed, because they were about to kill the only being in the Galaxy that Man could rally behind. The seige was to be won and broken in the hours this had happened, with more time than the hounding Loyalist reinforcements could make it there to matter.

 

Why did he do it full knowing the implications? Knowing he had victory in his grasp? There in lies the very likely chance that it wasn’t his choice, and that something outside his realm of control happened to turn off his shields in Horus’ hour of victory.

 

2) With full knowledge of what was going to happen, the Alpha legion was more than capable of setting up a network of spies, agents, and operatives within Horus’ fleet ever before Horus had his visions. The bulk of the Alpha Legion was elsewhere, but it is more than plausible to have dozens of operatives within the crew of Horus’ own ship, let alone their own representatives from their Marines, acting as liasons between the main Traitor force. The possibilities are endless, as again, they had the TIME to plant and insert and set up whatever they needed to succeed. Logistically it is sound.

 

3) See the quote on point 1. No one was sure. There is a mention right there, and I don’t think GW placed that as a typo. They make it very clear that victory was Horus’ and it is because of the event that he loses.

 

 

 

Finally I would like to speculate a bit on the vision the Cabal showed, because I do agree something is a bit amiss.

 

If I am correct, and the alpha legion Did choose to fight for Horus to kill chaos in the long run, there is a problem right there. They did fight for Horus, and yet Horus still lost. That was not one of the outcomes shown by the cabal.

This means either of two things.

They were wrong, or they lied (damn xenos!).

Personally, the only visions I put any stock in are those that come from Eldred. The space elf nicked Abbadon, so he's got my respect.

 

 

Thought for the Day: All wars are Crimes.

After reading this part of your post, I am very unsure as to whether or not you actually took the time to read the main post. If you did, what the above states looks past what I wrote to the point of it showing that you never took into account anything I said.

 

I specifically state that the Alpha Legion choose to Fight for the Emperor of Mankind, not Horus (And in order to accomplish fighting for the Emperor, and to bring about the 2nd option in the acuity vision, they physically fight with Horus‘ troops). This is one of the 2 choices offered by the cabal. They fight for the Emperor by fighting with Horus, which is where you seem to get hung up on. They turn traitor to give the Emperor the opportunity to kill Horus. The choice they make has nothing to do with ridding chaos from the world, the choice they make actually condemns the galaxy to be ended by it. You think that they chose to help end chaos, something they clearly did not.

 

They fought and chose to fight for the emperor. One of the 2 choices made by the cabal. Every prediction that followed, the death of Horus, the end of the physical emperor, the stagnation of the imperium, and the years of warfare all have come true. It makes perfect sense,.

 

This means 2 things (to mirror yours)

1) the cabal was right about their visions, as the choice and outcome match what is given.

2) the cabal told the truth

 

As for what you put stock in, the author told you that the givers of the acuity aren’t lying, and the result of the acuity is our current 40K universe. What is your problem here? There is no third choice, it is all in front of your eyes.

[BrotherAtrox]

As for what you put stock in, the author told you that the givers of the acuity aren’t lying, and the result of the acuity is our current 40K universe. What is your problem here? There is no third choice, it is all in front of your eyes.

 

1. Dan Abnett could be lying.

 

2. The Cabal may be "truth holders" but he didn't say the Acuity was.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, I've also seen the theory that the Cabal told the truth, but the Acuity didn't show the whole truth. After all, all foresight is an imperfect thing. Here's a part of it, from the Black Library forums:

Chaos pulled all the strings. Dan Abnett left us a tremendous amount of clues and managed to keep this fact a secret, truly a credit to his mastery of the art of writing. He also did it while managing to follow the Index Astrates perfectly. The Alpha Legion joined because they were convinced to by Cabal. Cabal was convinced by looking through the Acuity. Chaos obscured the Acuity something fierce to make Cabal believe that it was their only hope for salvation for Horus to win, thus getting Alpharius/Omegon to join. In fact, irony of grand ironies, when this data is all thrown together you’ll find that the Chaos Gods even sold out Horus, the man who was supposed to be their champion, simply so the 41st millennia would occur and they could have victory. Does this remind anyone of how Cabal is constantly talking about the “long view”? Guess what? Chaos has seen the truly epically long view and they won it out.

 

The full theory can be found here. Seriously, take a look at it, it's very well thought out, with an amazing attention to detail. For example, he's figured out which character was Alpharius or Omegon in each scene, and what relevance that would have. Did Soneka meet Alpharius? Did Chayne? Did Namatjira? Did they meet Omegon? Why did Shere die when seeing the Acuity, but Grammaticus, another psyker, didn't? Did the Acuity show the Cabal how to get to their goals, or just the results?

I'll just warn you though, it's one hell of a long post. He takes apart every chapter for pieces of significance.

[Lord_Urbonov]

I think you misunderstood Urbonov. Abnett has told readers that in his book, the Cabal and Chayne speak with truthful voices. I can only assume that you must respect the author in what he wrote. As to what we think their intentions are or were, is essentially irrelevant. All that matters is that the author himself told you that what these two characters bring up are true. Lying and wiggle room as you put it are laced throughout the book among every other character, except the 2 the author has specifically told us are truthful. This point is really beyond what us, the readers think, as it has already been directly answered by Mr. Abnett.

 

I think you has mis construed my point. I'm not debating whether or not Mr. Abnnet said that the Cabal were known for being truthful. My point is that you are viewing what "truth" is from a human perspective. To aliens, especially ones as sophisticated and as far sighted as the Cabal, "truth" could hold a very different, a very alien, meaning. To quote another sci-fi epic "many of the truths we cling to are dependent on our point of view". Not to mention most of the opinions of the Cabal we are given is through their agent, who is close to human.

 

 

As for your point about Utopian ideals, yes, the Alpha Legion never believed in the ability to achieve the end goal they new was impossible… but that doesn’t mean they still fought and struggled against it. It is all they could do, and it is what they were made to do. Pech and Thias tell you this. The choice I have surmised also follows this mindset, as they make their decision to uphold the Emperor’s work by continuing the un winnable fight against chaos. Their choice alone gives them control, and they never had anything against fighting for what the Emperor stood for, even if they thought it was un-achievable. They knew the bigger picture, and their choice reflected it, even if you don’t seem to agree with their sense of victory, as it was an internal victory as well as a death sentence.

 

If they did know the big picture, I'd have to disagree with your interpretation of their actions. Why would anyone who takes the long view choose to fight for what they believe would end in failure.

Let's be clear, they were given two choices.

 

1. oppose Horus and the emperor would win, but the galaxy would slowly fall to chaos as he would be interred in the golden throne.

 

2. Side with Horus, help him win, and int he end chaos would self destruct.

 

The prophecy makes clear the end result is based on their intentions, not on their actions.

If they chose to fight for the Emperor, not Horus, and even pretended to side with Horus with the intent to be to betray him at a crucial moment (to take down the shields as you hypothesize) the galaxy would still be be eventually devoured by chaos.

 

I repeat, the prophecy is dependent on their intentions for the end result, irregardless of what actions they took. And they knew this, that's what they were shown by teh vision. If they choose to fight for the Emperor, they knew full well the galaxy would be destroyed by chaos eventually.

 

As for your inability to grasp how and why I claim it was by the Alpha Legion’s doing that Horus’ ships had their shields lowered, I will post up some counter points against your 3.

 

1) Since your memory seems a bit faded on the subject of the Terran siege, pull out your Own Current Chaos Codex. You will be interested to read these, which may infact make you take back your statement from memory. Pages 15-16

 

“It was now at the very moment of his triumph that Horus made his one and only mistake. No one can say for sure why he did it, but Horus lowered the defence shields on his barge as this last cataclysmic battle begun. It was surmised that without the shields he was able to better witness the forthcoming destruction of the Emperor and His Imperium.”

 

In the pages you will see that Horus was more than capable of killing the Emperor and Final defenders without ever stepping foot on earth. He knew his gamble had succeeded not failed, because they were about to kill the only being in the Galaxy that Man could rally behind. The siege was to be won and broken in the hours this had happened, with more time than the hounding Loyalist reinforcements could make it there to matter.

 

Why did he do it full knowing the implications? Knowing he had victory in his grasp? There in lies the very likely chance that it wasn’t his choice, and that something outside his realm of control happened to turn off his shields in Horus’ hour of victory.

 

I'm unable to grasp how and why? That's not very nice.. /shrug

Again, as I'm trying to view this from a historical viewpoint (not that I'm trying to tell You how to look at things like a historian), so i'm looking at a variety of sources and draw my conclusions from the accounts that seem to agree with each other and make sense.

 

I was aware of how the new codex tells it, but it seems to be in the minority that suggest that particular reason behind lowering the shields. The majority of ones I've read (and I read the whole huge article they had on the entire siege in WD, not that I'm saying you didn't) agree that Horus dropping his shields was intentional and an attempt to goad the Emperor into attacking, and though to a lesser degree, still more agree that is was due to the approach of the loyalist reinforcements.

 

And most importantly, the new chaos codex is epic fail, both in art, lore and rules. Mention my legion all of three times will you. grrrrr

 

 

2) With full knowledge of what was going to happen, the Alpha legion was more than capable of setting up a network of spies, agents, and operatives within Horus’ fleet ever before Horus had his visions. The bulk of the Alpha Legion was elsewhere, but it is more than plausible to have dozens of operatives within the crew of Horus’ own ship, let alone their own representatives from their Marines, acting as liasons between the main Traitor force. The possibilities are endless, as again, they had the TIME to plant and insert and set up whatever they needed to succeed. Logistically it is sound.

 

Yes it's possible, but following along those lines, the thousand sons may also have been responsible, and unlike the Alpha legion we have evident that they were at the battle. I'm not saying it's impossible that the alpha legion was there, i'm just saying there is no evidence to support the claim.

 

3) See the quote on point 1. No one was sure. There is a mention right there, and I don’t think GW placed that as a typo. They make it very clear that victory was Horus’ and it is because of the event that he loses.

 

Again, that account of the events is in the minority, and thus i doubt it's veracity.

 

 

And I did read the whole post. I would not insult you and the other poster by wasting their time with un-informed arguments. I am not a troll sir. You wound me.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

1. Dan Abnett could be lying.

 

2. The Cabal may be "truth holders" but he didn't say the Acuity was.

 

Dan Abnett IS Alpha Legion! :P

[Candleshoes]

Urbonov, I have 2 last things to say, as I believe disscussing the subject with someone who dissolves other peoples ideas (in the novel) for the soul purpose that it goes against what you personally may do, believe or could rationalize, is the equivilent of throwing a tennis ball at a Steel Beam. A waste of time and energy.

 

That being said:

 

- What can you not understand about the Alpha Legion choosing an outcome that will result in the death of the galaxy? You only bring up your personal disagreement with the desicion, which may not make sense to your person, but makes perfect sense to the characters in the novel. Even if they did choose the outcome to save the galaxy, Humanity was to be immolated as a side effect, making it just as poor a choice to them. Are you implying that they care more about the Xenos of the Galaxy then humanity itself? Humanity dies both ways, what they care about dies both ways. They knew this before the acuity. They also tell you that they would rather fight an unwinnable battle.

 

The result of the acuity, their actions, their intentions, and their choice create the warhammer world we know now. There is nothing you can say or debate to sway this. The choice they made was simple, why are you having such a hard time putting it together? They also wouldn't of had the pragmatic luxury of self motivated thoughts... oh wait... that kind of describes them doesn't it? It really isn't a far stretch to see them choosing something that they want even if the galaxy was to burn because of it.

 

- As for your comments about minority writings, over 20 years worth of articles say a lot of things, and changes a lot about specifics. The fact of the matter is that your Chaos book (Which I kow you have a personal dislike for which sways your mind about its worth) was one of the few books written after the release of Legion and the Horus Heresy books that we are discussing now. If anything, it has more relevence to anything, as it is a culmination of the articles of the past, as well as the novels to date.

 

In fact, I pose something to you. To jest and simplify, I state that the codexes and rulebooks of the past are in fact the minority, since none of them can speak or were written with the foundation of specifics that the HH books provide. Wouldn't they be the most informitive (this current rule book and codexes) as they are providing us with the ideas that a current GW have and are giving you? Aren't they the ones written with the assumption and information given by the HH books? Did GW feel that those books carried a lot of Lore weight and began to change their backstory to solidify the myth of the books into something well defined and truly epic? Read the special edition intro of Horus Rising and look at what Abnett writes. Most of what you base your objections on he lays bare. Story, myth, fantasy warhammer history and fluff for the 40K world is constantly evolving, it is one of the reasons that makes this game we play so enthralling, and their Pulp Fiction stories so damn good to read. That being said, of the older articles and the newer, of some that are for and against the idea of Horus having control over the shields that dropped on his battle barge, what makes one worth more than the other? Your Personal Bias aside, no one can answer that question, and to try is foolish.

 

You interprut what you will from them, as one is no more correct than another. It is part of the beauty that allows us to ponder, share, and hit with invisible typed carrots over a forum like this.

[angronn]

It seems odd that you should be talking down to him for not agreeing with your POV, yet arguing that the truth is unknown and indeed can never be known.

 

Other than that, I don't want to get into the whole BL canon thing again, but I think the Alpha Legion's tricksiness and Farseer-like planning is over-rated. They're good at joined up-thinking and planning, not Tzeentch.

 

 

EDIT: As to whether Alpharius dropped the shields - I don't think so. I hold by the significant amounts of fluff that say Horus did it (although yes, they often decline to say why). It makes a much more interesting story that Horus was the architect of his own downfall rather than the uber-tricksy Alpharius.

[Dorns Padawan]

Candleshoes: A very thought provoking statement! I quite enjoyed reading your original opening statement, you have certainly made me rethink (and i have read the book twice!).

 

I think Mr Abnett did a fantastic job at portraying the Alpha Legion for what they are and what they stood for. I don't have my copy of Legion with me at uni but i can definately remember the line at the end of the book by Alpharius when he was about to deal the death blow to Namajitara, he asked Alpharius why was he doing this and his responce was "for the Emperor". This is what got me thinking, are they remaining loyal in some way or do they have other intentions? I am not the brightest bulb in the box which is why i like reading these type of threads, but i still believe that in some capacity, the ALpha Legion did remain loyal to the Emperor. Alpahrius/Omegon i think were looking at both the short and long term. I can't really think of a way of explaining that so really i am not in fact adding anything really am i.......? Anyways, i think everyone who has written a comment has made a valid point and it just goes to show in one respect how good a writter Dan Abnett really is as he has certainly given us 40K fans yet ANOTHER debate to hold!

[Montuhotep]

I'm reminded of a phrase from Winston Churchill:

In wartime, truth is so precious that she must always be attended by a bodyguard of lies.

.

Leads me to a question though - you think that even the Alpha Legion know what they're up to, or do they routinely con each other as well as everyone else? :lol:

[Lord_Urbonov]

Urbonov, I have 2 last things to say, as I believe disscussing the subject with someone who dissolves other peoples ideas (in the novel) for the soul purpose that it goes against what you personally may do, believe or could rationalize, is the equivilent of throwing a tennis ball at a Steel Beam. A waste of time and energy.

 

...huh?

 

- What can you not understand about the Alpha Legion choosing an outcome that will result in the death of the galaxy? You only bring up your personal disagreement with the desicion, which may not make sense to your person, but makes perfect sense to the characters in the novel. Even if they did choose the outcome to save the galaxy, Humanity was to be immolated as a side effect, making it just as poor a choice to them. Are you implying that they care more about the Xenos of the Galaxy then humanity itself? Humanity dies both ways, what they care about dies both ways. They knew this before the acuity. They also tell you that they would rather fight an unwinnable battle.

 

lol, it's not that i don't understand, or even that i disagree with their decision, I simply disagree with your interpretation of what that choice was. Say they did make the choice you propose. While humanity will not be immolated to destroy the evil of chaos, the human race will still die, as will the Emperor. But it will not be a warriors death, an idea I'm sure they can appreciate, but a slow lingering death, by degrees. I'm not suggesting they care about xenos more than humanity, i'm sure they don't. but it possible the vision showed them th true evil and chaos, and faced with that I'm convinced they would have made the choice to destroy chaos, having seen what a threat it is. It's not a perfect theory, but it's what i believe their thinking was.

 

The result of the acuity, their actions, their intentions, and their choice create the warhammer world we know now. There is nothing you can say or debate to sway this.

 

Well, when you put it that way, :lol:

 

- As for your comments about minority writings, over 20 years worth of articles say a lot of things, and changes a lot about specifics. The fact of the matter is that your Chaos book (Which I know you have a personal dislike for which sways your mind about its worth) was one of the few books written after the release of Legion and the Horus Heresy books that we are discussing now. If anything, it has more relevance to anything, as it is a culmination of the articles of the past, as well as the novels to date.

 

I feel a tad slighted that you seem to imply that couldn't dislike something and still not have it alter my opinions. That being said, I don't disagree that the lore of of 40k is a relatively fluid thing. The thing is, as new material is added, I would assume it is meant to add and build on the material that already exists. While I'd be the first to shower praise on the vast majority of the HH series (Battle for the abyss and Descent of angels aside...) I'd hesitate to call it the Culmination of the lore.

 

 

In fact, I pose something to you. To jest and simplify, I state that the codexes and rulebooks of the past are in fact the minority, since none of them can speak or were written with the foundation of specifics that the HH books provide. Wouldn't they be the most informitive (this current rule book and codexes) as they are providing us with the ideas that a current GW have and are giving you? Aren't they the ones written with the assumption and information given by the HH books? Did GW feel that those books carried a lot of Lore weight and began to change their backstory to solidify the myth of the books into something well defined and truly epic? Read the special edition intro of Horus Rising and look at what Abnett writes. Most of what you base your objections on he lays bare. Story, myth, fantasy warhammer history and fluff for the 40K world is constantly evolving, it is one of the reasons that makes this game we play so enthralling, and their Pulp Fiction stories so damn good to read. That being said, of the older articles and the newer, of some that are for and against the idea of Horus having control over the shields that dropped on his battle barge, what makes one worth more than the other? Your Personal Bias aside, no one can answer that question, and to try is foolish.

 

You interprut what you will from them, as one is no more correct than another. It is part of the beauty that allows us to ponder, share, and hit with invisible typed carrots over a forum like this.

 

I can assure you my personal bias is nowhere in sight.

 

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I held my opinion to be the unassailable truth. I'll leave that to others.While I can't argue that the HH books are the newest bunch of lore heavy material we've seen outside of a rulebook in a long time, I still think your reasoning is based on a few assumptions.

 

A couple things to consider when looking at the interpretation of the battle of Terra int the chaos book.

 

1. You seem to be assuming it validates your theory by fitting with your theory, and I believe that could be a mistake. You're latching onto the interpretation because it it fits your theory, but while it does fit, conversely it still provides no evidence to really support. Absence of evidence is rarely evidence itself.

 

2. This interpretation of the battle IS in the chaos codex, so it might be flavored to fit the book more. It would not do to have Horus realizing he was about to lose and do something desperate in his own armies rulebook. I'd be interested to see what the new Loyalist Marine codex says about the battle.

 

3. I'm sorry but i don't recall any other telling of the battle that mentioned Horus not intentional dropping the shields. that may be the reason I have such opposition to your theory.

 

4.You pose a good question.

 

"what makes one worth more than the other? Your Personal Bias aside, no one can answer that question, and to try is foolish."

 

Just remember, that concept swings both ways. What makes you think your interpretation is the absolute truth? Just asking is all, no slight intended.

 

Finally, I want to make it very clear, these are just my opinions being expressed here, just because I've disagreed with you doesn't mean I think yours is worth less. Just an exchange of ideas between two scholars. Cheers! I'm off to watch some more Berserk Abridged.

 

Thought for the Day: The hardest thing in this world, is to live in it. Live.

[Lord_Urbonov]

I'm reminded of a phrase from Winston Churchill:

In wartime, truth is so precious that she must always be attended by a bodyguard of lies.

.

Leads me to a question though - you think that even the Alpha Legion know what they're up to, or do they routinely con each other as well as everyone else? ;)

 

That's an awesome quote! Gonna have to write that one down...Good old' Churchil! :lol:

[Aias]

Candleshoes, I must say that, while I may not agree totally with you, that has to be one of the most well thought-out looks at Legion that I've seen. Bravo. Even in my disagreement, however, I can't really argue with your reasoning. By fighting on Horus' side in order to stay loyal to the Emperor, it's very likely that that was enough to bring about the stagnation and defeat that the Cabal warned of.

 

With no proof to back me up, I just feel that an organization like the Alpha Legion, who make it a point of policy to spread disinformation and to have plans within plans within plans, would not take a group of Xenos at their word. Would he believe them that Horus would betray the Emperor, and that their involvement would be key? I think the book itself bears the truth of that out well enough.

 

But how could someone such as Alpharius truly go into an event as monumental as the Horus Heresy and not have a backup plan? I truly believe that either within the Legion itself, or in consultation with one of the other Primarchs, a second plan to defeat Chaos came about, and to save at least the majority of the human race. Would it be as quick and simple as the Cabal's plan? Highly doubtful, especially considering he 41st millennium we now see. But the Alpha Legion, as you point out, excels at the long con. If anyone could pull it off, it'd be them.

[Candleshoes]

Good point Aias. So little is known about the Legion that their intentions, short and longterm can only be skeptical at best. Even with my theory, I personally have no idea as to how or what the Alpha Legion would do after the fall of Horus and the Emperor. Did they turn full traitor, are they loyalist still, was their a schism, do they make mankins stronger by attacking their weakness? Who knows.

 

As for what most likely happened, 10,000 years is a hell of a long time to rub elbows with chaos and not be swayed, or caught up in it. What once was the best of intentions would most certainly be difficult to continue after ten millenia, knowing right well that the realm of man that you saved hates you. But then again, it was a choice they made.

[Rain]

I have the distinct feeling that as another thread in here posits, it will either be Horus Aximand or a miraculously alive Garviel Loken that lowers the shields as they are more central characters to the heresy as a whole than the entirety of the Alpha Legion. As for the rest of your idea I think it is just as valid as any and I really hope the Alpha Legion's motives are never truly explained as that is part of their character, and a mystery is always more intriguing than a fully explained fact from a narrative standpoint. (Remember the medichlorians? Yeah, like that)