Alpharius Betrays and Kills Horus

[Commander Skaav]

Please bear in mind that I have not read any of the codexes most of my information comes from Lexicanium and novels

 

Lexicanium is indeed a great 40K resource, but there's bits and pieces there that may not be substantial enough evidence in any form, whenever I use Lexicanium as a source, I often take what's written there with a pinch of salt, because it's mainly worked upon by 40K gamers, and not GW Employees (ret-con me on that if I'm wrong).

 

Any way... I now say I'll pass back to the topic in hand, in that I find the information given on Lexicanium in regards to Alpharius, rather sketchy, it's rather a hotch-potch of information, with no solid background, I realise many will disagree with me on that, but the HH books and mainly the Codex's seem to give the best information in regards to the Alpha's past and current status.

[Taz]

A fine debate, and I'll agree on every point but one, which Candleshoes forgot. One of Horus' personality. In my opinion, it WAS Horus who lowered the shields. Not for anything so base as mockery, though. Throughout the first three books, we see that Horus has a brilliant tactical and diplomatic mind, however, his most prominent traits are his sense for the theatric, and most importantly, an this can be said for all primarchs, his martial pride. Horus didn't want to sit up on his ship and WATCH as his plan comes to fruition, he didn't want to sit on his ship while everyone else does all the fighting. He is a warrior, and the final, killing blow to the Imperium, would be done by his own hand. He wanted to fight the Emperor himself, kill him face to face. To him, that could be the only end to it: A final, epic combat, and to the winner goes the leadership of the human race and the galaxy. It wasn't until he WAS going to finally strike the Emperor down that, like Fulgrim before him, Chaos loosened it's grip on him, and the magnitude of what he was doing finally hit home.

 

That's my only point.

[esinhorn]

I think when it is all said and done it will be infact Little Horus who lowers the shields.

Think about it before the novels there was never a character named little Horus.

The old articles even point toward Abaddon being Horus's clone son.

So why did they name the 4th mournival Member Little Horus?he could of be named anything George,Gary,Gabaddon ect.

Because it will be Little Horus who lowers the shield,It was stated in the thrid book that he seemed really depressed after cutting off Torgoddons head,It will be his way of making amends.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Plus, if you want to look at it another way, the fluff states that Horus probably lowered the shields, they just never mention which one!

[Ethrion]

I read the whole theory and I liked it. However, i have just finished reading 'Collected Visions' and the text regarding the final battle with the Emperor and Horus' lowering of the shields unfortunately contradicts your theory. If you would like the exact words I'll find the section and transcribe it here but basically it narrates Horus' orders to lower the shields and allow the Emperor to teleport aboard. All his advisers (Maloghurst etc...) warn him against it but he is adamant and thus the fateful decision was made.

[Commander Skaav]

Personally, I think anything works in theory, if that's the way you see it happening, that's you opinion, regardless of what the fluff might say (ok so the Fluff is there to bolster the actual GW 40K timeline), but isn't it perhaps (again in theory) down to the individual gamer to make up their own minds, after all, the facts are there, there's nothing to say, they can be worked from to adapt a theory for your own personal idea in regards to them. :lol: :lol: :down:

[Ethrion]

Ok fair enough but with that said the theory does still now need to incorporate the latest passages of fluff. After all, one can't simply leave out a section if it doesn't fit with a theory or personal view on a chain of events. Plus one cannot also chose to decide that some elements of the fluff are wrong and some are right depending on whether or not they support the theory. Unless of course the source is from someone entirely unreliable. So basically, all I'm saying is if the latest elements of the fluff regarding Horus' actions in the final battle against the Emperor can be worked into this theory then I'm all for it because ultimately the idea is pretty cool. It just seems difficult that's all I mean.

 

Basically what we already know is the Ultramarines have beaten the Word Bearers and are en route, the Space Wolves have managed to extricate themselves from the clutches of the Alpha Legion (that in itself could be significant) and the Dark Angels are also making their way to Terra. The Emperor foresaw their arrival and knew that Horus would be forced into challenging him personally in order to attempt to end the conflict before the loyalist reinforcements arrived. And so...

 

"Horus was furious at this news...these three Legions together would at best delay his victory; at worse deny him altogether. Horus had gambled everything on being able to defeat the forces of Terra before the Emperor could muster help from his still-loyal Legions. With time seemingly against him it now appeared as if his gamble had failed.

 

Horus was first among the fallen, with the power of a God and the cunning of a daemon. he resolved to try one final gambit. He could still kill the Emperor. he immediately ordered all comm-net communications blocked so that the defenders on Terra could receive no word from their rescuers. He concentrated on his own psychic powers to cloud the Emperor's psy-senses and prevent him knowing of the approaching fleets. He turned to his waiting minions, his head ablaze with psychic fire and gave his fateful command.

 

'Maloghurst, if I cannot get to the Emperor through the walls of his palace then I shall tempt him to come to me. Shut down all the shields!'

 

'But, sire, with the shields lowered, the Vengeful Spirit will be unprotected. Our foes will be able to blast this ship to oblivion,' Maloghurst replied.

 

Erebus also spoke. 'My lord, this is folly. You must teleport to the surface and lead the final assault against the Palace. Without shields we are easy prey. With respect you must rescind this order.'

 

'No. The order stands! The Emperor will not let this ship be fired upon. he will see this action as an invitation and a personal challenge. I am offering him the chance to finally confront me and finish this one way or the other. He will not be able to resist this opportunity. We must prepare for attack!' "

[Captain Idaho]

Fine ideas, but I have a few bug bears with the theory.

 

The biggest problem I have is the idea of "truth". A character can lie without realising he is doing so. A character can be mislead and still be honest. The Cabal for example are putting their trust in an oracle of un-revealed origin. Could they believe what it is saying is truth yet in themselves be deceived by their trusted oracle? Could the oracle itself be fed false premonitions from another party without knowing? Could their interpretations simply be inaccurate, though what they were shown was true?

 

As an example of this potential incorrect data, Alpharius and Omegon were shown 2 futures, one that if they sided with Horus then Chaos could be destroyed and one that the Imperium was doomed to a lingering death with ultimate falling to Chaos. The Alpha legion sided with Horus yet still the Imperium is falling into stagnation anyway. This is a third future, which implies the twin Primarchs were deceived into a future they never expected, whether purposely or not.

 

If, like you have explained and I summarise here:

 

They fought for the emperor, they would provide the emperor with the chance to lay Horus low and to end the conflict once and for all, even if it meant putting on a new face and sacrificing much to yield the greatest result. Such challenges and controlled deceit could only be handled by one legion.

 

To fight for the emperor, they fought for Horus, they turned on their brothers, and they bided their time. They waited, they planned, and they preformed well.

 

Then they have not been duped at all and more importantly, they have chosen a path that is not laid out in the 2 choices they were given, then the validity of the Cabal being a truth holder is called into question.

 

They are responsible for betraying Horus, lowering his shield, and giving Man, the Imperium, and the Emperor the only way to Victory. They gave up Horus.

 

Matter of pure conjecture I am afraid. We have no information to that nature, and the only information we have was Horus wanted to watch the battle personally for self gratification or as others have pointed out, his siege was grounding to a stalemate with 2 loyalist "fresh" Legions approaching to further cause problems, hence he used all his Daemonic powers to prevent the Emperor from knowing of these reinforcements and lured him into a desparate gambit.

 

The biggest flaw in the idea that the Alpha Legion were actually loyalists was the fact after the Heresy they still strike against the Imperium, including the ambushing of the Ultramarines on Eskador. Why would they do these things if they are loyal?

 

***Reason for edit*** having went away and read that BL post, I can say that there are a few problems with it. We are told that everything the Alpha Legion tells us is a lie or misleading, yet he has culled much of the information regarding the Alpha Legion and their Primarch(s) from the Index Astartes article, which is information uncovered by Inquisitor Kraven who is likely comprimised and an Alpha Legion agent. We cannot take any of that article as truth.

 

As an example, Alpharius' relationship with Guilliman is only ever mentioned in the book Legion from the words of the Alpha Legion themselves, and Inquisitor Kravin's investigations. Can we trust that Guilliman hates Alpharius? Can we trust the reasons for the aminosity if it does exist? Did the battle on Eskrador take place? Did it go the way we were lead to believe?

 

Remember we cannot trust teh Alpha Legion...

[Ethrion]

They are responsible for betraying Horus, lowering his shield, and giving Man, the Imperium, and the Emperor the only way to Victory. They gave up Horus.

 

Matter of pure conjecture I am afraid. We have no information to that nature, and the only information we have was Horus wanted to watch the battle personally for self gratification or as others have pointed out, his siege was grounding to a stalemate with 2 loyalist "fresh" Legions approaching to further cause problems, hence he used all his Daemonic powers to prevent the Emperor from knowing of these reinforcements and lured him into a desparate gambit.

 

We do actually have new information regarding that now:

 

Basically what we already know is the Ultramarines have beaten the Word Bearers and are en route, the Space Wolves have managed to extricate themselves from the clutches of the Alpha Legion (that in itself could be significant) and the Dark Angels are also making their way to Terra. The Emperor foresaw their arrival and knew that Horus would be forced into challenging him personally in order to attempt to end the conflict before the loyalist reinforcements arrived. And so...

 

"Horus was furious at this news...these three Legions together would at best delay his victory; at worse deny him altogether. Horus had gambled everything on being able to defeat the forces of Terra before the Emperor could muster help from his still-loyal Legions. With time seemingly against him it now appeared as if his gamble had failed.

 

Horus was first among the fallen, with the power of a God and the cunning of a daemon. he resolved to try one final gambit. He could still kill the Emperor. he immediately ordered all comm-net communications blocked so that the defenders on Terra could receive no word from their rescuers. He concentrated on his own psychic powers to cloud the Emperor's psy-senses and prevent him knowing of the approaching fleets. He turned to his waiting minions, his head ablaze with psychic fire and gave his fateful command.

 

'Maloghurst, if I cannot get to the Emperor through the walls of his palace then I shall tempt him to come to me. Shut down all the shields!'

 

'But, sire, with the shields lowered, the Vengeful Spirit will be unprotected. Our foes will be able to blast this ship to oblivion,' Maloghurst replied.

 

Erebus also spoke. 'My lord, this is folly. You must teleport to the surface and lead the final assault against the Palace. Without shields we are easy prey. With respect you must rescind this order.'

 

'No. The order stands! The Emperor will not let this ship be fired upon. he will see this action as an invitation and a personal challenge. I am offering him the chance to finally confront me and finish this one way or the other. He will not be able to resist this opportunity. We must prepare for attack!' "

[Commander Skaav]

Wow, I can see this going on for a while, I'll keep watch on this topic, but for the moment, doubt I'll chip in with my thoughts, need to do some further personal research in this subject.

[Lay]

The Cabal for example are putting their trust in an oracle of un-revealed origin. Could they believe what it is saying is truth yet in themselves be deceived by their trusted oracle? Could the oracle itself be fed false premonitions from another party without knowing? Could their interpretations simply be inaccurate, though what they were shown was true?

The acuity is described as "a percep­tion device, a means of temporal lensing, based on eldar principles of farseeing."

Furthermore the Cabal did also consult the Black Library.

 

As an example of this potential incorrect data, Alpharius and Omegon were shown 2 futures, one that if they sided with Horus then Chaos could be destroyed and one that the Imperium was doomed to a lingering death with ultimate falling to Chaos. The Alpha legion sided with Horus yet still the Imperium is falling into stagnation anyway. This is a third future, which implies the twin Primarchs were deceived into a future they never expected, whether purposely or not.

The Imperium has not fallen into stagnation despite the Alpha Legion siding with Horus, it has so because Horus did not win. The prophecy in which "The Emperor will give his life to achieve victory" and "He will fall, at Terra, striking Horus down" came to pass.

Also, the Cabal did actually try to recruit other Legions for the task.

 

he has culled much of the information regarding the Alpha Legion and their Primarch(s) from the Index Astartes article, which is information uncovered by Inquisitor Kraven who is likely comprimised and an Alpha Legion agent. We cannot take any of that article as truth.

How do we know that everything that is written in IA was provided by Kravin, thus excluding an omnipresent narrator? It seems that most passages that are derived from his work are described as such.

 

Counter-example:

Did the battle on Eskrador take place? Did it go the way we were lead to believe?

The log that details the battle of Eskrador ends with the retreat of the Ultramarines, yet the Index Astartes article goes on to describe how imperial forces returned to Eskrador, looking for traces of the legionnaires.

Also, the Inquisition and Ultramarine-representatives may have questioned the logs validity but no one ever denied that said battle did not happen or that that the report was contradicting whatever was believed about Alpharius ultimate fate before it was found.

[Giant Fossil Penguin]

I really do enjoy reading these theories and all of the responses they engender; well, the sensible ones anyway. For all of its faults, and the folks around here have pointed out many, their attitude to the fluff leaves us lots of room to put our own spin on events, to re-and de-construct events and actions in any way we see fit. On this subject, however, ther is a seemingly definitive account of what happened during this pivotal moment in 40k history. Horus ordered the shield lowered himself.

p.360 of the Collected Visions, second column, starting from about tow-thirds down the page. I'm going to paraphrase something fierce here:

 

Horus had gambled everything...now appeared this gamble had failed.

Horus was the first...power of a god...cunning of a daemon...could still kill the Emperor. Ordered all comm-net...blocked. His psychic powers to cloud the Emperor's psy-senses..turned to his waiting minions..."Shut down all the shield!"

 

Maloghurst and Erebus argue with Horus saying that the ship will be defenceless and could be blasted from orbit; they try to get him to follow his original plan to teleport to the surface to lead the final assault, a plan that has been endangered by news of the approach of loyalist reinforcements. Horus counters this by saying that the Emperor will not let the Vengeful Spirit be fired upon, rather seeing it as an invitation to a personal challenge.

Horus knows his actions will bring the Emperor onto the ship; it is his intention and wish that this happens.

 

I realise that these books were written before the HH series began, but it does seem to match quite closely in many respects. I especially love seeing the pictures and then reading about these characters as the books bring them to life. I want to say again that I appreciate the OP's theory, but I don't think that Horus' death is the outcome of the Alpha Legion's direct actions, at least not in this instance. But from this example I think the OP may be the one to give us something to chew on if he turns his mind to what the AL have been aiming for all this time.

 

GFP

 

EDIT: @10:10pm My bad! Sorry Ethrion, I got all excited that I was gonna be able to make a decent point and started scanning. I just came back to see where the thread had gone when I noticed your post approx. 400 years before mine.

[Ethrion]

I really do enjoy reading these theories and all of the responses they engender; well, the sensible ones anyway. For all of its faults, and the folks around here have pointed out many, their attitude to the fluff leaves us lots of room to put our own spin on events, to re-and de-construct events and actions in any way we see fit. On this subject, however, ther is a seemingly definitive account of what happened during this pivotal moment in 40k history. Horus ordered the shield lowered himself.

p.360 of the Collected Visions, second column, starting from about tow-thirds down the page. I'm going to paraphrase something fierce here:

 

Horus had gambled everything...now appeared this gamble had failed.

Horus was the first...power of a god...cunning of a daemon...could still kill the Emperor. Ordered all comm-net...blocked. His psychic powers to cloud the Emperor's psy-senses..turned to his waiting minions..."Shut down all the shield!"

 

Maloghurst and Erebus argue with Horus saying that the ship will be defenceless and could be blasted from orbit; they try to get him to follow his original plan to teleport to the surface to lead the final assault, a plan that has been endangered by news of the approach of loyalist reinforcements. Horus counters this by saying that the Emperor will not let the Vengeful Spirit be fired upon, rather seeing it as an invitation to a personal challenge.

Horus knows his actions will bring the Emperor onto the ship; it is his intention and wish that this happens.

 

I realise that these books were written before the HH series began, but it does seem to match quite closely in many respects. I especially love seeing the pictures and then reading about these characters as the books bring them to life. I want to say again that I appreciate the OP's theory, but I don't think that Horus' death is the outcome of the Alpha Legion's direct actions, at least not in this instance. But from this example I think the OP may be the one to give us something to chew on if he turns his mind to what the AL have been aiming for all this time.

 

GFP

Argh! 2-3 posts above I wrote the same thing only verbatim :D LOL!

 

We do actually have new information regarding that now:

 

Basically what we already know is the Ultramarines have beaten the Word Bearers and are en route, the Space Wolves have managed to extricate themselves from the clutches of the Alpha Legion (that in itself could be significant) and the Dark Angels are also making their way to Terra. The Emperor foresaw their arrival and knew that Horus would be forced into challenging him personally in order to attempt to end the conflict before the loyalist reinforcements arrived. And so...

 

"Horus was furious at this news...these three Legions together would at best delay his victory; at worse deny him altogether. Horus had gambled everything on being able to defeat the forces of Terra before the Emperor could muster help from his still-loyal Legions. With time seemingly against him it now appeared as if his gamble had failed.

 

Horus was first among the fallen, with the power of a God and the cunning of a daemon. he resolved to try one final gambit. He could still kill the Emperor. he immediately ordered all comm-net communications blocked so that the defenders on Terra could receive no word from their rescuers. He concentrated on his own psychic powers to cloud the Emperor's psy-senses and prevent him knowing of the approaching fleets. He turned to his waiting minions, his head ablaze with psychic fire and gave his fateful command.

 

'Maloghurst, if I cannot get to the Emperor through the walls of his palace then I shall tempt him to come to me. Shut down all the shields!'

 

'But, sire, with the shields lowered, the Vengeful Spirit will be unprotected. Our foes will be able to blast this ship to oblivion,' Maloghurst replied.

 

Erebus also spoke. 'My lord, this is folly. You must teleport to the surface and lead the final assault against the Palace. Without shields we are easy prey. With respect you must rescind this order.'

 

'No. The order stands! The Emperor will not let this ship be fired upon. he will see this action as an invitation and a personal challenge. I am offering him the chance to finally confront me and finish this one way or the other. He will not be able to resist this opportunity. We must prepare for attack!' "

[Captain Idaho]

The acuity is described as "a percep­tion device, a means of temporal lensing, based on eldar principles of farseeing."

Furthermore the Cabal did also consult the Black Library.

 

But neither of these things are deemed 100% accuarate by any sauce other than their own factions. Regardless of previous accuaracy (let's imagine the Acuity has never lied or been wrong before), who is to say, what with the great plans of Chaos, that one or more daemons of the warp twist the acuity's abilities? Much like the way the Emperor was blocked from seeing the future during the Heresy.

 

How do we know that everything that is written in IA was provided by Kravin, thus excluding an omnipresent narrator? It seems that most passages that are derived from his work are described as such

 

Because there is an Inquisition appendix in it, stating that almost all the information the Imperium has about the Alpha Legion came from him. More importantly, we don't know what would be false and what wouldn't, therefore we couldn't pick and choose what we like the sound of as true as we could be choosing the wrong part!

 

Besides, the Index Astartes series have always been described from the perspective of the Legion, or at least one which leans towards them, generally speaking from an Imperial researcher. As an example, the Ironwarriors and Imperial Fists have different slants on the same events. This article is written from the perspective of the Alpha Legion using information that is quoted as researched by Kravin, thus it paints things in the colours of their choosing.

 

The log that details the battle of Eskrador ends with the retreat of the Ultramarines, yet the Index Astartes article goes on to describe how imperial forces returned to Eskrador, looking for traces of the legionnaires.

Also, the Inquisition and Ultramarine-representatives may have questioned the logs validity but no one ever denied that said battle did not happen or that that the report was contradicting whatever was believed about Alpharius ultimate fate before it was found.

 

Personally I believe something did go on on that planet, but the example I was using was to make people ask questions and look at things from an unbiased perspective. Lets be honest, many players love the idea that the Ultramarines were defeated in "fair" combat and will take these events to be gospel. From a historians perspective, we should look at our information available and make a judgement based upon all of our information. As the only information we have is from a single side, how can we not question it's validity without other collabrative information?

 

In summary, the Alpha Legion article is logically to be considered comprimssed and it's accuaracy brought into question, as we have no way of confiriming any information within.