Searching for an answer

[Bjorn Darkwolf]

so i know most of you do not recognize me, and those that do have only seen a few posts by me. but i have been on Bolter and Chainsword fora few years now, keeping up with updated rumors about our dex, looking at general tactica and how it has adapted to the last two editions of the game. so i am in no way a new comer to the site, nor to the army nor the game, i have had my wolves around since just before the launch of 3erd edition. that being said i have a question a wish to pose to both our honored long fangs, and our newer members who have just recently joined our ranks, but may have tips, and advice that i my self have not.

 

i have always run my Great Company with a strong HQ and Command group, this is only fitting for a space wolf company, as we have such an emphasis on our heroes they really are the heart of our chapter, and the character of the army. (they even made a rule saying we needed to take one for every 750pts, to my knowledge there is know other list with that requirement.) i love my Heroes and their retinues, and i really am hard pressed to leave them at home. even in the smaller lists. now i know how hard it is to fit them in to smaller armies, and i i have made peace with that. i am satisfied to have the army i am fielding be a smaller detachment led by one of the wolf lords Wolf Guard leaders, or perhaps his Wolf Priest or Rune Priest Adviser. i have noticed recently that even in 2000pt games i am really looking at taking two WGBL's instead of a wolf lord and terminator squad. this was disheartening, but still a better option than watching my list get taken apart by a cheaper codex marine equivalent with superior numbers and fire power.

 

This all came to a front over the weekend when i lost three games in a row to the same player. we did a 2500 pt game, he brought a mix a salamanders with has'tan. and several allied sisters squads. yes the sisters flamers where all twin linked due to the salamander special rules. and their AP1 divine guidance mixed with that is quite painful.

 

anyway this is gone on a while, anyway my question is, has anyone found a way to still run a characteristically strong HQ and retinue, and still bring enough wolves, and fire power to stand toe to toe with codex armies?

 

Note: when i run several Lighter HQ's in BC squads i think we tend to average about 60%/40% victories (in his favor)

 

any thoughts at all would be appreciated.

 

thanks

 

Bjorn

[WolfLordLars]

Wait.. what?

 

Allied sisters? Using the same rules?

 

Something sounds wrong here.

[Thylacine]

With the new rules and the new SM codex I now take two WGBL's and a V-dread with Plasma cannon or TL-Las-cannon and heavy flamer.

 

Big expensive retinues are a specialist thing, the largest I make is four WGBG in TDA, with two AC's two SB's two CF's and two PF's and they follow the RP in TDA and use a DP for transport or sometimes a LR. Have your HQ's lead the warbands (packs) that's where the glory is.

 

I have suffered with idiot TO's saying yes they have taken into account my mandatory multiple HQ's but if I don't put more troops on the table (%) I will loose points. I normally take three troops of GH's the smallest would be the six in the Razorback, with two packs of eight in DP's.

 

Don't beat yourself up, his list may be a one trick pony that you just don't have the answer for at the moment. I played an Eldar player with his Walking Wall of Death, (Iyanden Ghost Warrior Army) and it took me a few attempts to just draw with him. When I did there was a major dummy spit, now he has sold off some of the models as I write lists to beat his knowing his is a long standing tournament winner.

 

Cheer-up mate all is not lost, grab a copy of his list and write up one to take it out.

 

BTW, I thought that mixed lists were illegal for tournaments and frowned upon for general play?

 

Thylacine.

[Ullr Direfang]

well first off, a good, but not really cheap unit is WGBL with AC, TDA, RC, PW/PF/FB/LC, and WP, and 4 WGBG with 2x AC, TH and SS (or two), and 2x TLC(or two), with TDA. lots o' punch and armor. but there are always fun ways to make good storng units the wolfy way. ;)

 

Wait.. what?

 

Allied sisters? Using the same rules?

 

Something sounds wrong here.

 

yes brother Wolflordlars, something does sound wrong here. i have yet to buy the new codex, but i thought the commander special rules only worked for space marines in the core army, not allies. i could be wrong but i would want to see that one before it happened.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

personally, i would say you got cheated.

 

the army rules provided by space marines are only applicable to space marines. just was space marines cannot use acts of faith or generate faith points.

 

just read through his rules, and while it says "your army", i can see some people using it this way. i wouldnt play such a person more than once. its a waste of your time.

 

wolf lord kieran

[the great beaver]

there are no hard and fast Allies rules, but generally speaking army rules don't apply to allies.

 

still, I am fully supportive of very expensive wolf lords with all the goodies because now they can take a retinue and be untargetable in CC.

 

that means that your 6 attacks of the charge wolf lord surrounded by a retinue of terminators jumping out of a land raider is even better and twice as hard.

 

it's expensive, but it always has been. just remember to engage as much of the enemy army in mellee simultaneously.

 

good luck

[Byrne]

If I remember correctly, you cant ally sisters with marines. I think it is in the witchhunter codex. might be something about the powerarmour....

[Dark Bjoern]

If I remember correctly, you cant ally sisters with marines. I think it is in the witchhunter codex. might be something about the powerarmour....

You can´t use SW as allies in an army that contains GK. But you can use GK in a SW army. I´m not sure for Sister cause i don´t have the C:WH at hand. Maybe you have mixed this up.

[Grey Mage]

The sisters of battle cant use the ability granted them by the Salamanders Special character, as it replaces an abilty called Combat Tactics. Sisters of battle have no combat tactics to exchange, so cant cash in on the twin linked goodness.

 

Edit: As an aside a number of other special characters in the codex give you interesting abilities like this- THEY DO NOT STACK, EVER. It specificly state that the ablities, known as chapter tactics, specificly replace combat tactics and that even if you have two models who provide you with different effects you must choose one, and only one, to use.

[Wolf89]

The sisters of battle cant use the ability granted them by the Salamanders Special character, as it replaces an abilty called Combat Tactics. Sisters of battle have no combat tactics to exchange, so cant cash in on the twin linked goodness.

 

Edit: As an aside a number of other special characters in the codex give you interesting abilities like this- THEY DO NOT STACK, EVER. It specificly state that the ablities, known as chapter tactics, specificly replace combat tactics and that even if you have two models who provide you with different effects you must choose one, and only one, to use.

 

I was in a much heated debate about this in the nilla' marines section... it's still an undecided quarrel that has gone above my level of English so I stopped looking there.

 

The key to He'stan is that his ability NEVER, and I can't stress this enough because we've said it many times, NEVER says it replaces the ability combat tactics. This is a common misconception that most people make because all of the other special characters' abilities DOES say it REPLACES combat tactics, but not He'stan's.

 

Also I think someone already stated it but sisters can be allied just like daemonhunters can be.

 

I don't want to get into the discussion here, but if you look it up I think this quarrel started in the "why so popular salamander" thread (or something like that).

 

The bottom line is this rule is still into question, and we're not posting here to yay or nay this tactic, the player obviously uses it and so our fellow wolf player needs our help. :D

 

First brother, I find that a nice small WGBG retinue in TDA is the best way to get your much desired "honor guard" for your precious HQ's. In an old 2500 point list I fielded 3x WGBL with 4WGBG in pods and it was a delite. However in 5th it's not that common but still very viable, you just need the right tricks.

 

First storm shields are a key factor now with wound allocation. You take on heavy fire from a tac squad and a few are plasma shots, you can allocate multiple AP weaponry on one TDA guy (prefering the storm shield variant of course so you're more likely to save than the pitty 5+ ;) ) as long as you have different wargear on each WGBG.

 

If you go heavy with the terminators, I find going very lightly on the tanks, and higher on the grey hunters in pods is a better alternative so you can get your % troops that you need. They pack quite a punch (meltagun or plasmagun, then 2 plasma pistols is always going to put the hurt on a vehicle or monstrous creature), can capture objectives, and they rock in HtH to boot.

 

As for blood claws, these are cheap troops that you can use to fill up % if you still need to, but I find that grey hunters are the best choice in the pod lists.

 

To help you against the sisters, make sure you have a lot of assault cannons with your terminators, they're T3 so they go down faster than most armies you'll face, even with 3+ armor.

 

If he's smart he'll be using a cannoness with seraphim squad, this is where the assault cannons should go, these ladies pack quite a punch and with the right faith, are nigh invincible in HtH. Punching the squad with lots of dakka will ensure he'll have to take saves on his cannoness, and make her take enough S6 saves, and she's bound to fail, instantly killing her. ;)

 

He'stan is a beast, but he's got a flaw like most, he doesn't have eternal warrior, and he doesn't have that many attacks in HtH. Just set him up to a lot of AP dakka or double strength and watch him go down. If he's smart he'll place him in an assault terminator squad in a land raider or variant, so he's bound to get into HtH. Being at WS 6, he's going to smash through your HQ's as well. So when taking those WGBL with WGBG retinues in pods like we suggested, give your WGBL 2 fenrisian wolves. These puppies will likely die to He'stan's blade, but with 4 attacks on the charge, even with WS6 and digital weapons, he's likely to only kill the 2 wolves. Leaving your WGBL and guard to smash through him and his terminators with ease. (I'd recommend killing the terminators first as they'll all likely SS\TH that will surely be a bane to you especially master crafted TH's).

 

I think I've said all I could for now, I might add some stuff later, but I must be going soon. Good luck brother!

 

Also make sure you look at his book, because I find some sister players always messing up their faith powers (intentional or not) and rolling the opposite of what they need (usually in their favor) so it seems like they always make their faith, which shouldn't always happen.

[Spacefrisian]

Some people also seem to forget that the Sisters of battle clearly state that an allied Spacemarine army must use its standard rules.

[Byrne]

If I remember correctly, you cant ally sisters with marines. I think it is in the witchhunter codex. might be something about the powerarmour....

You can´t use SW as allies in an army that contains GK. But you can use GK in a SW army. I´m not sure for Sister cause i don´t have the C:WH at hand. Maybe you have mixed this up.

 

Yes after looking this up, it is clear, a WH army with adepta sororitas can not have SM as allied. Any codex of the marines can have sisters as allies, but only one hq, one elite, 2 troops and one fast attack. so that would be a totalof 6 faith, if you max it out.

[Wolf89]

Some people also seem to forget that the Sisters of battle clearly state that an allied Spacemarine army must use its standard rules.

 

It is its standard rules.

 

-edited for grammar-

[Spacefrisian]

If you have to exchange a rule for another one than in my book its not its standard rule(s)

[OnlyInDeath]

It would become the new standard rules for the army. It's how they differentiate between chapters/chapter wannabies. You have to remember the age of the WH codex, just like our own. However, special rules dont transfer over to allies. WH are WH, SM are SM.

[Grey Mage]

I will quote the rule:

 

"Chapter Tactics: if you include He'stan then all units in your army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead all thunder hammers in your army will count as master-crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamer, meltaguns, and multimeltas count as twin-linked. If more than one character in your army has the Chapter Tactics special rule, you must choose wich version will apply."

 

I see that under Shrikes rules, it says they exchange Combat Tactics for the fleet universal special rule... I dont think this makes a lick of difference.

[Vassakov]

Right, here's where I stand on this somewhat contentious topic (an understatement if ever I did make one <_< )

 

He'Stan - Pg 93 of C:SM

 

If you include He'stan then all units in your army lose the combat tactics special rule. Instead all thunderhammmers in your army will count as master crafted, all flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns and multimeltas will count as twin linked.

 

Witchhunters as allies, Pg 21 of C:DH (I only have DH available, but wording is identical)

 

[Witchhunters] units can be included in as allies in any of the following codex armies...

 

What this boils down to is the term army - whether the allied forces are part of the original army or a seperate element. As the detatchment rules are non-existant, unfortunately I believe the bonus DOES stack - they are part of the same army are hence gain the bonus. In Apocalypse I would however insist that only Sallies/DIY army led by a H[e'stan]EQ get the bonus.

[Wolf89]

If you have to exchange a rule for another one than in my book its not its standard rule(s)

 

I've just opened another can of worms here, We don't need to discuss this here, there's a perfectly good topic where it belongs in the nilla marine section.

 

I will clarify for those debating this but I suggest we stop and take it over to the nilla section.

 

You exchange nothing, no where in He'stan's rules does it say you exchange, it's a loss of their "standard" rules and the whole army has new "standard" rules.

 

@Grey Mage

 

It makes a huge difference, not having exchange in that line means that the vehicles in the army also receive twin linked and such since they don't have combat tactics, wouldn't you agree? Hence the sisters will benefit as well.

 

You're bent on using the word exchange, when I don't see that word anywhere in He'stan's entry.

 

Again if you wish to carry this on I suggest either you make a thread in the nilla marine section (there's one in there already so just add onto it) otherwise this topic shouldn't be discussed any further in the Space Wolves section. The guy never questioned his opponent using this rule, so obviously he's not looking for us to help him argue against it, he just wanted to know how to beat it, so I suggest you provide helpful information on how to face it otherwise don't bother arguing something that doesn't need arguing.

 

Back ONTO TOPIC:

 

As much as this pains to say, maybe you don't want to kill the cannoness right away, providing you have the option to kill normal sisters first, you'll just provide more faith for the shooty sisters to smack down on the divine guidance.

 

If he's using rhinos for his girls, then blow them up as fast as possible, make him take those S3 hits that'll likely kill 2-3 sisters and hopefully (doubt it if he's got the books) pin them so they do nothing. Charge them, they'll die like nothing in combat, you'll murder them. No need for power weapons, your normal attacks will do just fine.

 

They need to get close to be good, just where you like them. <_<

 

-As for those who I may have offended by what I said, I didn't mean anything harsh by it, just that you should be trying to stay on topic and bring those arguments to where they belong in the other section.-

 

-edited section-

 

I completely agree with Vassakov, the word army is a key word, and I don't want to elaborate on this since it's already been discussed in full in the nilla section, if you want I can post the link.

[TheLastHuzzah]

Though I'm fairly new around the forum(not to the game or wolves), I'll go ahead and add my two pints. It really comes down to a semantics issue for me, though one thing does stand out:

 

If you include He'stan then all units in your army lose the combat tactics special rule. Instead all thunderhammmers in your army will count as master crafted, all flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns and multimeltas will count as twin linked.

 

To me the wording implies that you must "have" the Combat Tactics rule to be able to "lose" the combat tactics rule. The sisters don't "have" the combat tactics rule therefore cannot lose it.

 

Taken from Merriam-Webster online: Instead means "as a substitute or equivalent" or "as an alternative to something expressed or implied". In this case the item being substituted is the Combat Tactics special rule.

 

-Huzzah

[Vassakov]

Though I'm fairly new around the forum(not to the game or wolves), I'll go ahead and add my two pints. It really comes down to a semantics issue for me, though one thing does stand out:

 

If you include He'stan then all units in your army lose the combat tactics special rule. Instead all thunderhammmers in your army will count as master crafted, all flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns and multimeltas will count as twin linked.

 

To me the wording implies that you must "have" the Combat Tactics rule to be able to "lose" the combat tactics rule. The sisters don't "have" the combat tactics rule therefore cannot lose it.

 

Taken from Merriam-Webster online: Instead means "as a substitute or equivalent" or "as an alternative to something expressed or implied". In this case the item being substituted is the Combat Tactics special rule.

 

-Huzzah

 

I'm sorry, this arguement is flawed in about 4 different respects - Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts, Lost and the Damned and Land Speeders. All have access to the appropriate weapons, none have Combat Tactics. All still gain He'Stans Bonus. The bonus applies to the Army not the Unit.

 

Unfair? Probably. Unfluffy? Definately. Legal? Yes.

[TheLastHuzzah]

@ Vassakov

 

You see four flaws in my argument, I see one flaw and four instances of it. For want to continue an interesting discussion (and increasing my post count!)

 

My codex is not with me(at work), but I am curious how combat tactics is worded. Does it mention every specific instance (like our English FAQ), or say something along the lines of "If the Unit has it, it is listed"?

 

-The Land Raiders(and by extension other tanks?), and Land Speeders would never be called upon to make a morale check (I don't know of any abilities that cause vehicle leadership checks, that doesn't mean they don't exist). If vehicles want to leave combat, and are able they just drive off. The Combat tactics rule would never come into play.

 

-Dreadnoughts are in the same boat as tanks and Land Speeders, except that walker rules prohibit them from leaving combat.

 

-At risk of defeating my own argument, the LotD are a bit trickier. They have a rule that supersedes Combat Tactics, they are Fearless. This means that they will never be called upon to make a morale check, pinning or otherwise and could not choose to disengage even if they wanted to therefore have no use of Combat Tactics, even if given it.

 

-I would argue that if the tank and vehicle crews were able to get out and "walk", that they would indeed have combat tactics. If I recall the rules on Sgt. Cronus (sp?) when he "gets out" of his tank he does have the Combat Tactics Special Rule.

 

-Huzzah

[WolfLordLars]

Its listed under the special rules for each unit that has combat tactics. Thus, land speeders and land raiders do NOT have it. Tac Squads do.

 

Units that have Combat Tactics:

- Every HQ (including special characters - you have to have it to replace it with their special rules)

- Tac Squads

- Scout Squads

- Terminator Squads

- Veteran Squads

- Techmarines

- Assault Squads

- Bike Squads

- Devestator Squads

 

LotD and vehicles do NOT have combat tactics.

[Vassakov]

Huzzah, you are quite right. It is one flaw and I was being pedantic... sorry about that.

 

Back to the matter in question, I think I have the Checkmate. Read Shrikes Chapter Tactics. Then read Khans, and Kantors and Lysanders. They all state:

 

... all units in the army exchange Combat tactics for...

 

He'Stans doesn't. It merely refers to Combat Tactics being lost and the Flamer/Melta/Hammer goodness being gained accross the whole army. I would interpret army as the units being used in the same FOC, so the Sisters thing unfortunately stands... for now.

[WolfLordLars]

I dont know about the rest of you... but I have a hard time not giggling every time I read about the chapter master of the Crimson Fists. Maybe its for the best they are a 'dieing chapter' or whatever.. being led by a guy named Pedro.

 

Of course, we know how GW and their definition of 'dieing'. I wish the eldar would just die already.

[Vash113]

Using Sisters allies that way may be technically legal but its about as abusively power gaming as its possible to be and any jumped up little twit who does it should be dreadsocked into oblivion.

 

Don't blame your wolves, blame the power gamer.

 

Personally I still take three strong Wolf Guard Bodyguard Squads with my Wolves when they're fully maxed out. Did this with Drop Pods most often but I'm experimenting in their continued use. With sprinting in 5th Edition my Blood Claws and Grey Hunters kept cheap and large in number swarm the enemy and my Wolf Guard packs centered on a Terminator unit are the finishers that sweep in to mop up after the damage has been done.