WG Vrox Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 I am going to go out on the limb here in the ol' SW community and cry Cheese. I have been reading the forums and keep coming accross those who would attempt to find ways to bring out the cheese in our list. I ask you please do not encourage/provide ammo for the SWs are broken argument by trying to find the little loopholes in our rules that would give us berserker charge along with furious charge and or counter charge. We will only bring the nerf bat upon our heads and deservingly so. When rules are exploited to unbalance a list, it brings negative attention from our community. We should be proud of our list and run it fair considering the rules that were written 8 years ago. if you find yourself twinkling your list to take advantage of 3 Cyclone Missile Launchers with SS and CC power weapon. 1 with BS5 or 3 ACs in 1 drop pod. When we were given the ability to take 3 heavy weapons, those heavy weapons were not that powerful AC were heavy 3 no rending. CML only fired 1 missile and you could not have 2 other options for their hands. I ask you all to moderate yourselves, with the TDA exampled above, I ask you to take into consideration that with the current C:SM it takes 6 TDAs for a second Heavy Weapon choice. 3 CML in a group of 5 is extreme. I am not saying don't bring 3 HWs just mix it up a bit and maybe take a Heavy Flamer. It's showing a compromise and that we are regulating ourselves. We already have people who consider our list broken, no longer are some tournaments allowing SW lists. Trust me the nerf bat is coming, lets not give reasons to develop biased opinions toward the SW chapter when we are at the sensitive stage of rule development. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLordLars Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 I am going to try and be nice on this one... Quit being such a baby. Honestly. Space Wolves spent YEARS just barely getting by. Other armies get updated, improved, and generally upgraded.. and we had to sit there and wait. TWO space marine codices (thats right, isnt it?) have come out, not to mention every other SM chapter.. and we are still using our 3rd ed rules. There is cheese in the form of doing things which are vague or generally unsupported in the rules (a cyclone and 2 CCW for example) but this plea to have us not use advantages that are available to our army is just plain silly. I can and will field 3 AC's in a single pod. Hell, if I have the points I will field two. Why? Because thats something cool that ONLY our army can do (that I know of). You might want to take your bleeding heart elsewhere. As far as I can tell, your still new here. When you have put your time in with the army and dealing with what the rest of us have, you might understand why so many of us are excited that we stuck with the wolves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf89 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 No need for hindering our potential. We have many drawbacks that other armies fail to see and thus cry cheese. Those that say we can't play our lists obviously fail to look up the allowed armies where we're clearly stated (just be sure to have FAQ in hand). We have yet to have Space Wolves win major events and it's not due to the lack of skilled SW players, it's due to the abundance of more powerful armies that exploit their own advantages. A lot of our little "cheese" is moderate, and at best a slight advantage, nothing game breaking, and nothing to cry about. Look at those who play He'stan with sisters, that's more game breaking than us using a WGBL with a heavy weapon, which ours is clearly stated in the FAQ. A lot of lists could have an abundance of heavy weaponry, look at freekin' dark angels, they had it big too back in the day, many lists have. Ours just hasn't been re-done since 3rd ed. So why should we be punished for GW being lazy? A lot (if not all) of our "loopholes" are plain as day in the context of the book, if there is any cheese screamed I can dish out a load at whoever I'm facing calling their list cheese, always something to find somewhere. Points are a big factor in our codex, the fact that half of our special abilities no longer apply but we still pay for them? what the hell is that? we don't complain though. Why should we have to regulate ourselves by buying a heavy flamer in a long ranged unit? it makes no sense, that just means we're paying points for a hindrance. Regulating ourselves with what? The fact that nilla marines get sternguard vets that can all have combi weapons? heavy flamers in power armor? LotD with deep striking las cannons that have slow and purposeful? that's just marines which I can go on more. How about sisters of battle with the old hit and run rule that's amazing? Cover save rules that help orks? Guard platoons and kill points? Everyone has little buffs here and there, just because your focus is mainly on Space Wolves and you don't look at the others doesn't mean they don't benefit either. Trust me, Space Wolves aren't the best in the game, and I'll gladly switch with a xenos player for them to prove me wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720493 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted October 7, 2008 Author Share Posted October 7, 2008 I have been running SWs since 3rd edition, I may not have the time into this forum, but trust me I have been around for awhile. I am sorry that you feel you have to defend your point of view by name calling. I encourage all to speak to me about my points of view, but do it in by debating the topics I bring to the table. Trust me I am not saying avoid using any of the new cool stuff we have, but do it in a way that is reasonable. Sure I am going to have CML that are sporting the SS/Power weapon combo, but 3 of em is extreme and not what was intended. Do not think that I am one to not seek out the best way to use our list. I do. but I am not going to do it in a way that if I was facing my own list I would leave with a sour feeling about the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf89 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 You can't say anything about intention, there just isn't the argument to state what GW intended at all. We're a DIVERGENT army, we're not the norm, and as such we loose certain things, and gain certain things, just because what we gain happen to be extremely good, doesn't mean it's better. I'd love to face my own list, it would help me to figure out what needs improvement and what works the best. I just can't find anyone willing to play such a (and I quote) "difficult army to tactisize (sp?) with". I've had people always question when the right time to assault, stay and shoot, all that and it's quite different from the average marine than you think. If you think 5th ed. Space Wolves were cheese, where were you to complain about 2nd ed.... dear god how powerful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 I agree with you however sometimes you have to do those things to get by in situations where otherwise you wouldn't. In a tournament for example I wouldn't go out of my way to find every loophole but to stay competative in those situations you have to find ways to get around some rules. For just regular games between friends I agree that you should play for fun but when a person pays to play in a tournament then sometimes you have to pull out all the stops. Also, we aren't the only people doing this. Remember too that this isn't the only forum talking about our lists so whatever we talk about isn't going to be the people who cause them to jack our Codex or FAQs or whatever. Yes we should ease up a bit and nitpicking but sometimes it needs to be done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLordLars Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Funny how everyone has been playing since 3rd ed.... Anyway, wasnt aware I was name calling. Really was trying to be nice, honest. The image I just got in my head is someone holding up the SW codex with a "think about the children" tone on their voice. :devil: If its questionable, and you choose to use it anyway, that could be considered cheese. If the rules clearly state what you can do, and you choose to do it, its smart. The rules give us the option of several AC's in one pod. If GW didnt 'intend' for us to use them like that, it takes MINUTES to update and post a FAQ (for any reasonable person, that is). They havent. I have found that this forum, if anything, is less cheesey on average than others I have read through. This SW community seems to be open to new ideas (some of them anyway), but are willing to try and balance themselves when something is questionable. Your Mileage May Vary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullr Direfang Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 this is how i see this whole thing: 1) what we have that is "cheesy" to me is a little different. i started wolves just around the release of 4th ed. so i never really saw 3rd ed armies. but i have talked with people at the two stores i go to, and we have decided on what is cheesy and whats not. i believe the whole "blood claws get berserk charge on the counter attack" was only seen as able because of how the new pile in/counter charge rules were written, so it is used. grey hunters get +1 for having a power fist on the counter charge if armed with a pistol or bolter due to the new rule for PF. the termi squad with three CML, they say isn't cheese because of it's cost (480 +/- points for one HQ of 5 guys) kinda evens it out. 2) i understand that if searching for every little thing that can make an SW army get all the "cheese" that it can in the army would be kind of boring. i for one don't do two much, i usually stick to one cheesy thing per army. in bigger games i will bring more, but i rarely play tournaments and things like that so people tend to understand more. at both the places i play i have printed out FAQs and Copies of everything we agreed upon as "ok" so if i ever do play some one in something important we have them close by. the biggest problem we tend to have at one of the places i play is a couple people tend to hide their dice, so the age and outdated-ness of my list is usually over looked as important. at the other location, there are three to four SW players there so most of the space wolf stuff is second nature to every one. EDIT: if you want a cheesy army in 5th ed take a look at DA: raven wing and Dawn of War. at the 'ard boyz, the guy who played them, set up how ever many bikes he had at the 2' mark, turbo-boosted, made a little "u" shape on the other side of the table and killed what ever was left, with landspeeders, turn 1 win. there's cheese. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 I am going to go out on the limb here in the ol' SW community and cry Cheese. I have been reading the forums and keep coming accross those who would attempt to find ways to bring out the cheese in our list. I ask you please do not encourage/provide ammo for the SWs are broken argument by trying to find the little loopholes in our rules that would give us berserker charge along with furious charge and or counter charge. We will only bring the nerf bat upon our heads and deservingly so. I'm sorry, how is this a cheesy combo? How about say, cheesy Death Guard with FNP or say Sisters with Divine guidence... oh wait. It's their BASIC RULES. Cheese is a combo that is generally unbalanced, unfluff and not "what the designers intended" - see He'Stan with Sisters or two Lash Princes backed up by 1K Sons and Zerkers. One is bending the existing rules and the other is simply taking the most powerful options with no recourse to background or style. Both, though grating are fair game, through shoddy forethought. Now, I'll admit - we do have some powerful combinations. Blood Claws and TDA Wolf Guard for example. I strongly suspect Wolf Guard Termies are getting nerfed, that's what they've done to all Terminators. So no complaints there from me. On the other hand, if Fist's of both flavours get Stubborn and RG get Fleet, whilst Scars get Outflank, why is counter charge cheesey? It best represents our style and ethos, and I suspect it will be our "Chapter Tactics," possibly with Acute Senses. Just like now. Blood Claws will probably get Furious rather than Berserk Charge and it will still stack. Why? Because the rules say so. Finally, our list is 90% not broken by us using nasty unit combos. My list hasn't changed much since 5th Ed. One thing that has happened is I'm fielding all 4 of my Razorbacks more because they are now about 120pts cheaper. Because GW have changed other stuff, and we remain stuck out on a limb. If we are broken, it is because of changes in the meta-game, not us. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 If they cry that my SW lists is cheesy i just reply "it's not my fault, that i can pull this of with the SW codex. Go complain at GW" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLordLars Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 I think he was just trying to troll up some conversation. We have all done it once or twice. Perhaps it was tongue in cheek? We all know how things are, and that he hasnt gotten it thus far speaks volumes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Nothing is unkillable given proper forethought in ones list and proper tactics on the field. That being said many situations are alot harder than others. Space wolves have had alot of hard situations, and still do in this edition. For every time someone here brings up a cheesy combination someone else brings up a rediculous nerf- like saying we cant take any drop pods. Because to many people are caught up with win, win, win. So, will I be taking three assault cannons in a drop pod? Sure. And when my opponent hits that drop pod with a High strength low ap blast from his Techmarine HQ, I wont cry. When my Wulfen gets hit by a devastator squad and goes MIA, I wont get upset. And when the nightbringer reems my HQ squad as I valiantly try to take down the Warriors to cause a Phaseout, Ill just pray that I was smart enough to bring lascannons on my longfangs against necrons. Things happen. Games are won and lost... ties are rare. Every time I get my head handed to me is just building karma and experiance for when I hand them theres... and I wouldnt have it any other way. Are there rules out there that I dont think work the way people try to say they do? Yeah, gotta admit that one. Do I think it odd how the FAQs reverse alot of things with the new editions.... surely. Am I going to gimp myself against codexs with more options and "shinier" stuff than me? Not unless Im playing against a really raw newbie. And frankly, I rather enjoyed my trial by fire- I learned 3rd, 4rth, and 5th edition against a chaos player with alot of experiance and 13,000 points worth of options. I died many times before I got the hang of it... and I feel good about it because now I know that Im playing it right, and winning. If you cant beat it, your missing an option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Scalphunter Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 I'll try to be as nice as possible: I admit to coming into Warhammer during mid-3rd Edition (not old enough for 2nd) but never got in many games during that period. Maybe I played all of 10 during 3rd Edition since I moved cross-country during the tail end of 3rd. Most of my experience is from 4th, although I do remember many cheesy things from 3rd- Genestealers with power weapons and Str 5 anyone? I can go find my old 3rd Ed. codeci and rulebook if ye like... 4th had its Gouda-factors like Flying Circus armies and Fish 'o' Fury lists but they were counter-able if you thought it out. Only three times did I ever hear Space Wolves called cheesy, once by a guy using the Ultimate Flying Circus (everything mounted up, no foot troops on board to start) for having a 15 strong Blood Claw pack tear apart his Farseer's retinue. Another was by a mook who used Armored Company and got blasted by OBEL'ing scouts. Final time was Dark Eldar after he realized every squad could more or less instantly take out each of his precious vehicles due to pack power fists. Here in 5th, I've not played enough games to really decide what's cheesy and not, but it seems much better than older editions. Now to call Wolves cheesy is foolish, because we have to deal with a Codex that's lasted 3 editions of rule changes. As I said before, what our Codex has now is what it was like back when it was originally written- the much maligned 3rd Edition or "CheezeHammer". So I'd like to say to the OP as nicely as I can, don't try to say something with no backing and make an entire forum worth of players believe said grox-dung. Edit: Sorry for the rant. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted October 7, 2008 Author Share Posted October 7, 2008 All very good points, and ones I will ponder. Truely I am not one to play the troll and I frown on those that do. I was speaking from the heart when I said what I did. I agree that there are those people who play the cheese from their army list and the fact that we all know who they are and can remember the list and how easy it was for them to win speaks volumes to my point. What I am saying here is when putting together your list "don't be that guy". I think most of the vets in here will know that playing a well balaced list and more importantly knowing how to play that list will reap more wins in the end than going for the easy cheese dipping win. Ok maybe I have read to many Stan Lee comics, but I do believe the ol moto of with great power come great responsiblity. I play my wolves with pride and honor, when I go up against a cheezed out list, what fun is it. Sure maybe good practice for trounements but not fun and quite frankly the person who runs a list like that more than likely has issues of a personal nature that I won't get into here. I think most SW players already regulate themselves in one way or another. The game to me is about fun and winning is just a major plus towards that fun factor. Sgt. Vrox - Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightrunner Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Vrox, can you honestly say that even now, SW have access to any 'cheese' units? I remember suggesting the TDA, CML, FB and SS WGBL to Lars in another thread. However, even if you take two guys in a 1500 pts list, it doesn't break the game. He isn't any of the somewhat-scary new codex SM characters, who are all a lot better. Really. As Vassakov so aptly put it above, there are some powerful combinations in our codex, but even then they are expensive. Our codex is out of print, and we the loyal players (2nd ed here Lars! <_<) are limping along. Personally, I'm trying to get a list together for the UKGT; I have been playing friends who have played purposefully 'hard' lists. Even with the new rules, and the new SM codex, we are balanced, trust me. If you don't believe it, take the cheesiest list you can and put it against a good player with a good army. NR :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimfoe Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 If you think 5th ed. Space Wolves were cheese, where were you to complain about 2nd ed.... dear god how powerful. I really miss 2nd edition. :cry: So much power...... :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Betrayed_Spacewolf Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 13th company i have no cheese T.T Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720743 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted October 7, 2008 Author Share Posted October 7, 2008 Come on now, at no time did I call the SWs cheese. Please do not distract from the intent of my topic with blanket statments such as this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Come on now, at no time did I call the SWs cheese. Please do not distract from the intent of my topic with blanket statments such as this. Ermmm... I am going to go out on the limb here in the ol' SW community and cry Cheese. What was this then? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf89 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 13th company i have no cheese T.T I don't think any cheese, but I did have a few "gits" at the ard boyz that seemed to think so... I would have fetched 1st place had it not been for an unmodifiable SOB book... those damn books... gah! :devil: @Grimfoe Plasma cannon anyone? Full POWER! :cry: @ Vassakov I was confused about the same thing, I thought he distinctly called cheese... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion in the Stars Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 A friend of mine that played in 2nd ed (I played a game or two, started really playing in 3rd when the box came out) said that Wolves will never pay off the bad Karma from the 20 WGterms with Assault Cannons and Cyclones that was possible in 2e. There's cheese, and then there's fromage a cinq. Cheese is big combos that are very hard to counter. Fromage is 2e. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf89 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Lion in the Stars... sounds dark angels to me... GRRRR... AHHROOOOOOOO ;) It was good times having large terminator squads with cyclone missile launchers everywhere. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion in the Stars Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Dang straight I'm a Dark Angel. Space Pups are my second favorite chapter. How can you go wrong with beer-drinking, Viking werewolves in space?! So many conversion possibilities, like Wolf Guard Gunnar and his master-crafted Lascannon, or the 6-man Grey Hunter pack sitting around playing cards while the BCs got on with the battle. I leaned towards my 'arctic' force being Wolves, with my 'Woodland' force being DA, Tau in the desert and cities. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1720797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
saphius Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 I've played since 2nd Edition. Even then we weren't 'Cheese'. I remember Mephiston. I remember the Pheonix Lords. I remember, and still the most discusting unit of all time, The warp spiders. And on, and on..... 2nd Edition was a whole different beast. A different game with the same back round. GW has taken the game in a different direction and tried to balance it more. I feel they have been successful for the most part. Slow at time, But it's a fairly balanced game that still maintains some of the 'Attitude' of what was 2nd Edition. Every Army, let me repeat that, EVERY army has it's 'Cheese' if you wish too put it that way. SW, are no more unbalanced than ANY army out there. Yes, some, few, are so outdated that they have a hard time competing... As I feel our codex was in a similar situation in 4th. And the only reason we are an average, normal, baseline, whatever word you want to use, army now is with the new SM codex. There are so many examples of this running through my head but I feel the point is so self evident. When playing with your friends, Do a campaign, use fluff and try new things, make and break your own rules. When going into a tourny, build a nasty list that would be called 'Cheese' because after all, it's competative gameplay. Everyone else there will be bringing Cheese because they want to win. And when you realize after everyone is Cheese -No one is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1724364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Also lets not forget that while we have a few semi broken loopholes for wargear and the like we also have a significant number of detriments. WS/BS 3 Jump Troops that are horrendously expencive, more expencive terminators and in fewer numbers, no teleporting, no ablative wounds for heavy weapons, no heavy weapons in our Troops and so on and so forth. We have some advantages but also have quite a few dead weights laying around here and there and anyone who calls the SW Cheese hasn't even looked at the Cheese the new SM Codex can put out. White Scars Biker armies with Outlfank from Kossaro and re-rolls from Tigurius. Sallies and Sisters of Battle allies with Vulkan He'Stan, Scout and Infiltrating Terminators with Shrike and so on and so forth. Whats the biggest cheese the SW's get? A bunch of Assault Cannons in a Drop Pod... yea doesn't really measure up I don't think... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/#findComment-1724390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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