Bran Scalphunter Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 I dunno Vash, we also get +2A on the charge with our WS3 troops and 1 Special Character, someone might think that's a bit cheddar. :RTBBB: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Several things.... 1. Vrox, just know this type of topic is known to stir emotions 2. Fang members debate/play nice. Please do not turn the discussion into name calling and flames. Debate the facts 3. My 2 cents....Many of the new dexes appear to give a lot with little cost up. Our dex is OLD, it is expensive, and it is not going to be updated probably until middle of next year at the earliest. I say take every advantage because you are going to need it against other armies since we so far have missed two rules updates. I think that GW knows we are lacking and that is why a WG BL was allowed to take a HW. It was specifically addressed in the FAQ. Also note, many of us rely heavily on PF's, and that has been nerfed a little in the new dex. Sure we don't have the cost up that many dexes have for it, but you can't hit anything without having attacks. Additionally, I hope the same folks complaining about cheese(which I do not believe in), are not the same ones complaining about us getting a dex when we all thought it was Dec. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 I dunno Vash, we also get +2A on the charge with our WS3 troops and 1 Special Character, someone might think that's a bit cheddar. :RTBBB: Yea but like you said they're WS3 which does go a good way towards negating the sheer number of attacks. Plus thats only on the charge. Ragnar is also fairly balanced for his cost, he's good but not that good, certainly not compared to the uber cheese that many of the new SM and CSM Characters are. I mean have you looked at Abaddon, Kossaro, Shrike or Vulkan lately? Sheesh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Scalphunter Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 No Vash, I try not to since it would make me sad... To speak in the way of a great thing: too much power they have, not enough responsibility. Ale to guy that gets the reference first. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Yea but like you said they're WS3 which does go a good way towards negating the sheer number of attacks. Plus thats only on the charge. Ragnar is also fairly balanced for his cost, he's good but not that good, certainly not compared to the uber cheese that many of the new SM and CSM Characters are. I mean have you looked at Abaddon, Kossaro, Shrike or Vulkan lately? Sheesh. Or Kor'ssaro Khan, (my personal favorite), and the ability for the entire army to trade combat tactics for outflank? We are at a disadvantage already, why take additional self-imposed hits? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf89 Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 WS 3 hits WS 4 on a 4+ just like WS 4 hits 4 on a 4+ it's the attacks back we receive that hurt us since they'll be hitting on 3's... but other than that nothing differs we get a lot of attacks. ;) @ Lord Ragnarok I have changed my thought about wanting a new codex and soon, because I've had much success in 5th ed. with the codex we have an it just gets better with the 5th ed. C:SM. So you're right, I did change my mindset, and I know others have too. :RTBBB: The special characters are amazing nowadays, but frankly they're really expensive, and I'd rather have 2 WGBL for half the price slinging assault cannons under their arms. ;) If we were to get such characters in the C:SW (what is it now? DEC. 2009 or something now?) I'm hoping for a character that gives "buff's" to assault cannons, another that does something like cheaper and more abundant terminators, and another one that makes blood claws on bikes capable of being troops. ;) Just some ideas... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Oh lord, please do not turn this into a wishlist thread. There are boundless discussions on that point. ;) ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf89 Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Oh lord, please do not turn this into a wishlist thread. There are boundless discussions on that point. ;) ;) The only thing on my wishlist at this point is a keg of ale and a load of drop pods... ;) I forgot to mention I had an interesting discussion today with a fellow student who is familiar with the game of 40k. He's mainly been in WHFB and only started playing 40k the last few months of 4th edition before the transition to 5th. His uncle actually collected Space Wolves so he thought he'd start off by playing them, obviously taking interest in what I had to say about things he should look into and such, I promptly had him check out the B&C and a few other resources I thought he'd find useful. The FIRST and I mean the FIRST thing he said after reading just the codex and FAQ (no forums or anything along those lines) was that he wanted to field a huge WGBG squad with 3 AC's and a WGBL with an AC... so it's a no brainer, it's not cheese. He didn't even ask if we could do it, it was in the print plain as day. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLordLars Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 The FIRST and I mean the FIRST thing he said after reading just the codex and FAQ (no forums or anything along those lines) was that he wanted to field a huge WGBG squad with 3 AC's and a WGBL with an AC... so it's a no brainer, it's not cheese. He didn't even ask if we could do it, it was in the print plain as day. Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!! Hear that folks? Best buy stock in AC's! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted October 10, 2008 Author Share Posted October 10, 2008 Emperer grant me the Strength to not bring 3 CML all with Storm Sheilds bolstered by a WP with HP&B, that uses a forward sheild of 15 BC using the RUN rule to move 12" followed by a Rune Priest on a bike casting Storm on them AND the wisdom to never post another topic with the word cheese in it. Vrox <<<< Ties up the frayed ends of this thread in a triple loop braided fish not in hopes that it falls off the front page,.. Now I am off to my chambers with a block of rotting blue cheese for the next two weeks to work off my pentance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLordLars Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Hey, thats a good idea. FINALLY, a use for the Rune Priest... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 What that wasn't apparent? Its one of my favorite things to do. Stick a Rune Priest in Terminator Armor in a squad of Blood Claws and cast storm caller on em so they get the cover save. Then use them to shield the advance of more Blood Claws/Grey Hunters/Wolf Guard so that everyone gets cover saves even out in the open on planet bowling ball. Its quite amusing mwahahaha, especially now they all run and move almost as fast as if they were in rhinos. Fun stuff no? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLordLars Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Hot damn... guess I will have to give that RP a try... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marek Grimfang Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Hot damn... guess I will have to give that RP a try... Thats one of the oldest RP Tactics we have. Still proven today. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Plus thats only on the charge nope its always . they get +2 when they charge and +2A when they counter charge . Most SW armies I seen in 5th ed [non test games] were spaming BC like crazy and wouldnt play GH at all if they werent +1 . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thylacine Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Calls of cheese abound at every tournament and mostly from the most beardy, self-obsessed, arrogant, power-gaming players in the event. There are a few Eldar lists that I have seen that stand out, some Chaos ones and we all love those Nidzilla list. Each one has an owning player that will smile at you and say well this list if a pushover and you only need to, he proceeds to tell you what you need to do in order to roll his oh-so-easy list knowing full well that you don't have anything like that in your list. Give the man another serving of humble pie so he can relish it as he destroys your army. But don't dear brothers of the Fang, upset his hard as nails, winner take all tournament list by forcing him to a draw or (insert drum roll here and gasp of breath) besting his list. As when the soft scores are entered you will find you have 0 for Sportsmanship and 0 for Composition. Yes, he knows you have to take three compulsory HQ's, but thats just your fault for taking a 'Cheesy, Beardy, Power-gaming Space Wolf list! Guys we don't need to shoot ourselves in the foot, if something plays to our advantage we should use it and not abuse it. One hard as nails unit is a list should not make that much of a difference in a game if you opponent is a good tactical player. It is the mutts that expect their list to win for them that cause all the problems, them and the cheats. I sent my son off to a tournament with a list that contained a nine man pack of Grey Hunters in a DP with a WGBL, the GH's took a flamer, two power weapons, two plasma pistols and the rest had bolters, the WGBL had a frost blade, plasma pistol, MCW, WP and WTN. Junior had the audacity to kill of an expensive, tooled up HQ with this pack in game one, by dropping next to them and then swinging them against another squad using the DP for cover to kill off another full squad. His opponent marked him low on sports and comp. Second game of the tournament, he did a similar thing but used a V-dread in a DP to back up the above mentioned pack, using the DP's for cover again and had a second win, with a similar result, low soft scores. Both players were adults and regular tournament players with so called killer lists, both were rolled by a fourteen year old. As he had two wins under his belt, his next opponent was (I should lay face down on the floor and beg his forgiveness for even thinking of his name) a local well know tournament winner. This guy could have won the game by turn three but drew the game out to the full six turns, admonishing my son all the time by telling him what he should have done and why he is so easily loosing the game. The end result, junior lost the game, the power gamer goes off to tell his mates what an easy kill it was and what a cheesy list the kid had. Next event I swapped lists with my son, no one called the list cheesy or over the top and I played a previous GT winner and won the game, played another top player and won that game as well and both said it was the tactics that did it and that they thought I could have pumped up the list! Cheese is often in the eye of the beholder, however there are some truly cheesy lists out there, but you won't find one with SW's not for the price we pay in points and the models we can put on the table. Thylacine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Agreed... of course I do aspire to the philosophy that if you cant kill it, you werent planning ahead. Especially with the two armies I play: Eldar and Space Wolves. With the unit options in those books, the Codices for Chaos, SM, Tyranids, Orcs, and Necrons you should never, ever, find a list with a unit that you cant affect... with the possible exception of eldar vs necrons monolith. There are ways around that one too though, really basic ones. One of the strengths of space wolves, and the reason I love your Greyhunter squads and rarely use bloodclaws is simply that they have the ability with basic equipment to affect most if not all of the units in the game somehow. Tooled up Carnifex? Try plasma death, power fists, and even just regular attacks with that highest toughness of 7. Same for wraithlords. Got terminators? We have stuff that ignores armor so well youll think you were an ork. Got CC? Well shoot you and then take your much reduced charge, or heck we might just charge you ourselves... and reasonably expect to do something useful, even if we might die in the trying. Going through the army, basic forethought will let you take on any but the most extreme of lists... and even with those you couple a balanced list with good tactics and youll find yourself holding ground. But then I believe in adaptive tactics.... I have a very hard time making a list that focuses on but one phase. Its unnessairrilly weak in my eyes. Unless you play tau. Then all you truely want to check on is the explody phase. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrne Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Guys...in 40k "There is no cheese, only war!" ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724825 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 BUT but but.... *watches as the orphans behind him begin to cry* I promised them cheddarjack! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1724832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf89 Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 I agree with the "eye of the beholder" thing as I've experienced it myself. 13th company list, 2 different stores and tournaments, same list, different viewpoints. One player I faced actually thought it wasn't cheese at all, and thought it was a major hindrance I had no armor. Another player at the same store thought having only 1 troop option what a major hindrance and that my list and quote "did the best to try and make up for all the disadvantages but it still is a bad list". At the different store almost everyone cried cheese, and used that excuse (much like in Thylacine's story) to explain how they got beat by it. Both stores I won, however there were 2 different views. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1725010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Betrayed_Spacewolf Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 hell when you get beat by 13th it just shows you got tramped by a bunch of old men. .... i need canes for my models... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1725128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf89 Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 hell when you get beat by 13th it just shows you got tramped by a bunch of old men. .... i need canes for my models... Just because they're lost in the warp doesn't mean they're on the same time schedule as us... they could have been lost for only a few months or years as apposed to 1000's on our time frame. So no need for canes. :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1725131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Fang Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Anyway if there fangs have kept growing they may be able to simply support them selves on those :D leaving there hands free to smack some thousand sons about. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1725166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 nope its always . they get +2 when they charge and +2A when they counter charge . Most SW armies I seen in 5th ed [non test games] were spaming BC like crazy and wouldnt play GH at all if they werent +1 . Well... duh. I meant they don't get the attacks without charging. Whether its a counter charge or an actual charge once they're locked in combat the Blood Claws really don't have a lot in the way of attacks. Don't be so quick to start correcting people. Ontop of that the WS is still an issue, not as much as it used to be but nevertheless and Power Fists aren't as effective as they used to be with even less attacks than before and leadership is an issue without a fairly expencive Pack Leader. This is a bigger issue when you consider that a leadership test has to be passed to get the attacks for counter charging. So even the BC have weaknesses. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1725718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
clanfield Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 i remember the old 2nd edition assult rules and trust me getting charged by 80 genestealers the 20 assult cannon termies wasnt cheese it was a chance of survival iv played wolves from way back in rogue trader days .they remain my first and main army . the currant codex is limited compared to the currant other dexs but it do have the honor that we can still stand our ground with a 8 year old book and kick xenos bottoms. something that remains of our old 1st edd motto "endure" id like to think as to cheese only if its made from fermented elk milk please other wise it smacks of ultramar edited with wide awake brain for better reading Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/148258-enough-of-the-cheese/page/2/#findComment-1726173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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